Congrats Ichiro!
1985fan
Posts: 1,952 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
4000 career hits! Ichiro joins some pretty exclusive company. He's on pace for 150 hits this year, which means in a couple years he'll be joining the 3000 hit club in the majors.
"There are only two players who reached the 4,000-hit mark in major league history: Pete Rose and Ty Cobb. According to various sources, only five players had 4,000 hits in the majors and minors combined: Rose, Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and Jigger Statz (a little-known player because 3,356 of his hits were in the old Pacific Coast League). Whether you count Japan as a major league or a minor league -- or something in between -- Ichiro is about to join that elite fraternity."
"There are only two players who reached the 4,000-hit mark in major league history: Pete Rose and Ty Cobb. According to various sources, only five players had 4,000 hits in the majors and minors combined: Rose, Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and Jigger Statz (a little-known player because 3,356 of his hits were in the old Pacific Coast League). Whether you count Japan as a major league or a minor league -- or something in between -- Ichiro is about to join that elite fraternity."
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<< <i>Minnie Minoso had more than 4000 in professional baseball. >>
We're not counting minor league hits...if so Hank Aaron would qualify.
<< <i> According to various sources, only five players had 4,000 hits in the majors and minors combined: Rose, Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and Jigger Statz (a little-known player because 3,356 of his hits were in the old Pacific Coast League). Whether you count Japan as a major league or a minor league -- or something in between -- Ichiro is about to join that elite fraternity." >>
Derek Jeter is another one. How many hits did Julio Franco finish with? 3444 hits in the US Major and Minor League system, plus two years in Japan, two years in Mexico and one year in Korea. Maybe he's still playing somewhere?
How is this for major league pitching:
1. His first 10 years over here, he averaged (yes, averaged) 224 hits per season ---- for a 10 year period. Ty Cobb exceeded that yearly total only 3 times over his 24 year career and Rose only 1 time. So while Ichiro's hits in Japan may always be looked down upon, there is no mistaking that his ability to get hits in the Major League is unrivaled.
<< <i>I've heard a lot about how Ichiro's 1300+ hits in Japan, have watered down his achievement of 4000 major league hits. Something about them not being as impressive because they were not against Major League quality pitching.
How is this for major league pitching:
1. His first 10 years over here, he averaged (yes, averaged) 224 hits per season ---- for a 10 year period. Ty Cobb exceeded that yearly total only 3 times over his 24 year career and Rose only 1 time. So while Ichiro's hits in Japan may always be looked down upon, there is no mistaking that his ability to get hits in the Major League is unrivaled. >>
Another interesting point that I read that I never thought of: seemingly the same people who want to diminish his hits in Japan are the same ones who want to discount his rookie of the year win since he had already played for a number of years. The argument was that you can't believe both of those things.
<< <i>Another interesting point that I read that I never thought of: seemingly the same people who want to diminish his hits in Japan are the same ones who want to discount his rookie of the year win since he had already played for a number of years. The argument was that you can't believe both of those things. >>
Ichiro's Rookie-of-the-Year award isn't discredited, it is simply noted that it carries a different meaning when a 27-year-old wins the award than when a 19- or 20-year-old wins, like last year. Likewise, his hits in Japan aren't diminished in anyway, they simply carry a slightly different meaning; just like how most people think his American postseason hits have a different meaning -- if not his march toward 4,000 would have ended over a month ago
Does anyone ever count Reggie Smith's home runs in Japan alongside the ones he hit in North America?
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
That should put into perspective the foolishness of using his career hit totals as such a big measurement of his batting ability.
His lifetime OPS is 111. He was a good hitter, not an all time elite hitter. Sorry folks. Yes, he got the most hits on a yearly basis...also made a ton of outs on a yearly basis, did not get on base at an elite level, and did not get extra base hits at an elite level(even with his speed and his so called hitting ability, if he were elite, he would had to have been getting 45 doubles a year and 12 triples a year to merit an elite ranking).
His OPS of 111 tells you that he lacked the skills of an elite hitter, and puts a better light onto his true hitting ability, rather than the hit totals that paint a grossly incomplete picture.
To further the matter, many of his hits were the infield single variety, which isn't as valuable as singles to the outfield, because they don't advance base runners as far.
He was a plus defensive player, and good baserunner, which puts his overall ability as pretty good, but still short of typical HOF material...or at least Hall of Merit material....but that isn't the topic.
The way people talk about him as some all time great hitter because of his hit totals, simply isn't warranted.
The biggest laugh ever is the people who get their panties all wet because Ichiro could hit batting practice home runs...then they think he could just hit 30-40 homers a year if he wanted to, lol! No, he couldn't hit 30-40 homers a year in game play, and if he could, he would have! And if he did try to, he might hit 20-25 a year...but then bat something like .270 with a .310 OB% and still end up with an OPS of 111 like he has now, and be of the same value, but with a different route.
<< <i>With all of Ichiro's hits...he still has a lower lifetime OB% than Adam Dunn!
Roberto Clemente also has a lower lifetime OB% than Adam Dunn.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>With all of Ichiro's hits...he still has a lower lifetime OB% than Adam Dunn!
Roberto Clemente also has a lower lifetime OB% than Adam Dunn. >>
An astute observer would recognize that Clemente played in an era where offense was more difficult to come by, and that he played 18 years in the Major Leagues. Giving 5 more years of MLB time from Dunn or Ichiro and that OB% will continue to drop(as will their other percentages).
However, Clemente's OPS+ of 130 compared to that of Ichiro's 111 and Dunn's 125 paints a better picture...and even though OPS+ adjusts for era, it doesn't adjust as much as it should. So that 130, compared to Ichiro's or Dunn's is of greater significance. Also, Clemente is often overrated as a hitter himself. There are people who put him in the top five all time. He isn't of the elite ilk of a Mantle, Mays, or Ted Williams like many breath his name in the same sentence.
Next time you try to be cute...at least have something that makes sense backing it up
<< <i>With all of Ichiro's hits...he still has a lower lifetime OB% than Adam Dunn!
That should put into perspective the foolishness of using his career hit totals as such a big measurement of his batting ability. >>
You. Do. Realize. That OB% isn't just hits, right? Why are you bashing hit totals by using on base percentage? By the way, they are .006 apart.
<< <i>His lifetime OPS is 111. He was a good hitter, not an all time elite hitter. Sorry folks. Yes, he got the most hits on a yearly basis...also made a ton of outs on a yearly basis, did not get on base at an elite level, and did not get extra base hits at an elite level(even with his speed and his so called hitting ability, if he were elite, he would had to have been getting 45 doubles a year and 12 triples a year to merit an elite ranking). >>
Now you're bringing OPS into the conversation, when, I think you mean OPS+. That being said, Ichiro was never a power hitter. His job was to get on base. So he didn't walk, and didn't hit for power.
<< <i>His OPS of 111 tells you that he lacked the skills of an elite hitter, and puts a better light onto his true hitting ability, rather than the hit totals that paint a grossly incomplete picture. >>
So only power hitters can be 'elite' to you?
<< <i>To further the matter, many of his hits were the infield single variety, which isn't as valuable as singles to the outfield, because they don't advance base runners as far. >>
Infield singles with runners on base would not likely be a single, they'd be a fielder's choice, and therefore this comment holds little validity.
<< <i>He was a plus defensive player, and good baserunner, which puts his overall ability as pretty good, but still short of typical HOF material...or at least Hall of Merit material....but that isn't the topic. >>
Then why did you bring it up?
<< <i>The way people talk about him as some all time great hitter because of his hit totals, simply isn't warranted. >>
To you, it's not, because you place an undue premium on power hitting. That wasn't Ichiro's strengths.
<< <i>The biggest laugh ever is the people who get their panties all wet because Ichiro could hit batting practice home runs...then they think he could just hit 30-40 homers a year if he wanted to, lol! No, he couldn't hit 30-40 homers a year in game play, and if he could, he would have! And if he did try to, he might hit 20-25 a year...but then bat something like .270 with a .310 OB% and still end up with an OPS of 111 like he has now, and be of the same value, but with a different route. >>
No, the biggest laugh ever are the people who feel the need to bash a hitter for playing the game a different way than what they want. So he didn't hit for power. Who cares? Obviously the guy has had a fantastic career.
OPS+
Tony Gwynn 132
Joe Mauer 135
Ichiro 111
Kenny Lofton 107
It has nothing to do with being a power hitter. It has to do with doing things with the bat that creates runs and wins for the team. A .290 AVG with 65 HR's could do it, and a .370 AVG coupled with .475 OB% could do it, etc...
Ichiro simply did not do enough with the bat to be considered an elite hitter, or anything close to an elite hitter. He simply did not get on base enough and did not advance runners efficiently enough(which is SLG%)...and he did that at the cost of making a lot of outs for his team. He was a good hitter, very good a couple years. But overall his 111 OPS+ puts him where he belongs.
Gwynn and Mauer are/were elite hitters for their time, and they were not power hitters. Ichiro and Lofton were also not power hitters, and were also not elite hitters. Their legs gave them a few more runs with stolen bases...but compared to guys like Gwynn and Mauer, not nearly enough to close the enormous hitting gap.
It is really fairly simple. If you are objective and savvy it is easy to see. If you are a homer or ignorant on the game, then I can see why it would be hard to see.
PS, reading over some of your responses above tells me you really don't know much about baseball. Infield singles do happen with runners on base! That doesn't make them fielder's choice just because there is a runner on base...good lord. For example, a swinging bunt down the third base line with a man on second base, that will be a single and advance that runner to third...whereas an outfield single will advance that runner to home at a far greater rate! Is that simple enough for you to understand?
<< <i>Next time you try to be cute...at least have something that makes sense backing it up >>
Nah, I'm just trying to waste your time. Looks like I succeeded. LOL.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>Next time you try to be cute...at least have something that makes sense backing it up >>
Nah, I'm just trying to waste your time. Looks like I succeeded. LOL.
Digicat, good play.lol. You are solid...always with a meaningful viewpoint.
Now with cats like this 1985fan guy...I may have to part ways soon with him. No point in debating the extreme bias/ignorant.
<< <i>An infield single with a runner on would *likely* be turned into an out via fielder's choice. Reading isn't a strong suit of yours is it? >>
Wrong, if it is a "single," then it isn't a fielder's choice! You are right about reading...I don't spend much time reading ignorant and biased responses.
The funniest one is where you said, "His job was to get on base. So he didn't walk, and didn't hit for power."
LOL If his job was to get "On Base," then his OB% should have been higher if that was his "job."
The funny thing is that he did his "job" worse than Adam Dunn...whoes "Job" was 'not' to get on base....hence me posting Ichiro having a lower career OB% than Dunn, which is quite funny!
Ichiro wasn't even elite at the one job you said was his!
He's ha a great career and will be a first ballot all of famer...even if you don't agree with it.
Again congrats Ichiro! 4000 hits!
<< <i>One of your criticisms was he would get infield hits with runners on base. My point is any runner on base would likely get thrown out advancing turning that hit into a fielder's choice.
>>
So getting a hit and eliminating the lead runner is considered good how?? That is even worse than my example of an infield single only advancing the lead runner one base.
Ichiro was a very good ballplayer. He just wasn't an elite hitter the way people proclaim. Using hit totals and declaring him an elite hitter, while ignoring everything else that is so important in determining a hitter's value, is simply a weak method of evaluation.
If you like his style, more power to you. I liked Bill Lee's style...that doesn't put him in the same breath as Tom Seaver.
BTW, Tuffy Rhodes has 487 combined Japan and MLB Home Runs...including probably one of the most famous 3 HR game in MLB history.
PS. It is not a given that Ichiro would have been even a .300 hitter from age 21-26 had he played in MLB those years instead of Japan. It is just as likely that he was overmatched his first two years, and then never given another real shot like so many other prospects in the history of the game.
He may very well have been the hitter we have seen the last five years...below average. Maybe even worse with no experience...if even given the chance to play everyday as a guy who would have no big money obligations to play.
<< <i>
So getting a hit and eliminating the lead runner is considered good how?? That is even worse than my example of an infield single only advancing the lead runner one base.
>>
No I was refuting the idea that his hits were this variety. You said he accumulated a lot of hits of the infield variety with runners on...these would be outs and not hits blasting a hole in your theory.
<< <i>
<< <i>
So getting a hit and eliminating the lead runner is considered good how?? That is even worse than my example of an infield single only advancing the lead runner one base.
>>
No I was refuting the idea that his hits were this variety. You said he accumulated a lot of hits of the infield variety with runners on...these would be outs and not hits blasting a hole in your theory. >>
No need to debate how many...some of the good measurements account for that. You can search the play by play if you wish to count how many exactly. He has had his share, more so than pretty much any other MLB hitter. Of course that is a minor point. It isn't even really needed when a guy has an OPS+ of 111...as that really is dam@ing enough. However, it is just another thing that gets overlooked, while his other small things get too much magnification. Call it a counterbalance
Which is using his hit totals, and ignoring everything else that goes into hitting, and then proclaiming him as high as people do.
Also, the Japan thing is simply a novelty.
Like I said, Tuffy Rhodes has 487 MLB and Japan HR's.
There is no given that Ichiro would have been even a .300 hitter from age 21-26 had he played those years in MLB. He may very well have been overmatched his first couple of years, and then never given another real shot like so many other MLB prospects.
<< <i>BTW, Ichiro is a better player than Dunn. No question...just in case you misunderstand the point of my response.
Which is using his hit totals, and ignoring everything else that goes into hitting, and then proclaiming him as high as people do. >>
People, by and large, don't only his hit totals to call him a great player. Throw in his elite level defense and you have a guy deserving of the praise he receives.
<< <i>There is no given that Ichiro would have been even a .300 hitter from age 21-26 had he played those years in MLB. He may very well have been overmatched his first couple of years, and then never given another real shot like so many other MLB prospects. >>
There's no shortage of people who are on record in saying that the pitching Ichiro faced in Japan was comparable to any number of MLB level pitchers. If anything, he'd have *more* hits as MLB seasons are longer than the ones in Japan (they only play 140 games a year).
<< <i>One of your criticisms was he would get infield hits with runners on base. My point is any runner on base would likely get thrown out advancing turning that hit into a fielder's choice. He's ha a grea >>
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Hi Ax, if that was the case we wouldn't be here talking about this then as if his 'infield hits' were instead FC's he'd not have the combined 4k hits.
Pick your poison carefully....
<< <i>
There's no shortage of people who are on record in saying that the pitching Ichiro faced in Japan was comparable to any number of MLB level pitchers. If anything, he'd have *more* hits as MLB seasons are longer than the ones in Japan (they only play 140 games a year). >>
LOL. Yeah...then Tuffy Rhodes would have 540 HR in MLB?? lol.
<< <i>
<< <i>One of your criticisms was he would get infield hits with runners on base. My point is any runner on base would likely get thrown out advancing turning that hit into a fielder's choice. He's ha a grea >>
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Hi Ax, if that was the case we wouldn't be here talking about this then as if his 'infield hits' were instead FC's he'd not have the combined 4k hits.
Pick your poison carefully.... >>
Winpitcher...I though that was Axtell by the way he broke up his quotes and his complete biased homerisms!
Yeah, I'm not sure if Axtell knows the difference between a FC and a hit.
The nitpicking you are choosing to follow is absurd, and rather than continue to debate with someone more interested in semantics than facts, I will bow out of this conversation. Good luck, sir!
Axtell, which Tuffy Rhodes Rookie Card should I buy when the veterans committee puts him in the HOF because there are people that say Japan pitching is just as good? lol
Yes, please bow out, as I think following this advice may be your best course; "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
League AVG...OB%...SLG%...OPS
Japan....353....421....522......943
MLB......320....362....416......778
I'm not sure how somebody can claim minimal difference(or NO difference like Axtell did), between the two leagues.
In Ichiro's last two years in Japan his OPS was .984 and .999
In Ichiro's first two years in MLB his OPS was...838 and .813
Ichiro is an exception to the rule of a Japanese player actually doing good in MLB. Nearly all the rest are below average hitters, being career .300+ hitters in Japan, and lucky to hit .250 in MLB, or even be a full time player.
Yu Darvish is the rare rule too, although his Japanese career ERA was 1.99 and his current career MLB ERA is 3.34
Ichiro started his career at age 18 in Japan, and was a full time player at age 20. Highly, highly doubtful that would happen with him in the states.
The bottom line is that had Ichiro started his career in the states, he is just as likely to being overmatched his first few seasons as a kid, then never given another real shot again like happens to many prospects...as opposed to the thinking that he would have hit at a 75% rate(of his Japanese stats) and still would have been a league average full time hitter and racking up hit totals in MLB from age 18-26. The reality is he probably would have been racking up hit totals in the minor leagues until age 23, especially for a RF with no power....if he ever even got drafted to begin with!!!
Playing in Japan first WAS a benefit to his career MLB hit totals! A career starting in the states could have gone anywhere from not ever being drafted to begin with, and working as a chef somewhere, to toiling along in the minor leagues as a RF with no power, racking up hit totals in the minors until age 24, and then spending age 25 and 26 as a guy adjusting to the big leagues and being the Japanese version of Jerry Owens.
When it is all taken into consideration, feats like Julio Franco's have just as much merit as Ichiro's, when you start counting all these other leagues. Heck, even the minor leagues, because after all, the premise of this thread is simply a novelty, without any real merit. And why not count the winter leagues of all the MLB players who have played there?? It is simply a novelty!