Early '80s Topps production vs. Donruss and Fleer

doog71

Sorry if this has been covered before, but even if it has there are some new members on the board these days that I'd love to hear opinions from as well.

Is there any consensus as to how much Fleer and Donruss produced vs. Topps during say 1981-1983?

I know there's no way to know conclusively, but I'm trying to come to a conclusion as to which company might have the least unopened still out there.

Time4aGansett

I'll say that because Topps was the biggest, they easily produced the most. Donruss and Fleer sales were poor in those years, hence the drastic cut back in production in 1984.
Buy Topps from these years.

ReggieCleveland

Was there a drastic cutback in production for Donruss and Fleer in 1984?

DCanfield

My guess is Topps produced more, sold more, had more opened and in 2013 has the least amount left unopened.

Time4aGansett

<< <i>Was there a drastic cutback in production for Donruss and Fleer in 1984? >>



Compared to 1981-83? Yes.
I never saw Donruss on the shelves in 1984, and Fleer was just as tough for me.
I'll go through my SCDs from 1984 when I get a chance to see what was written then about production.

MiniDuff

That was the rumor at the time. It was that shortage of 84d that led to the shift in demand/premium from Topps to Donruss for the next few years. In truth 84d production was probably no different than 83d, but demand was vastly different due to strawberry and soon after mattingly so supply dried up much faster.

ReggieCleveland

<< <i>

<< <i>Was there a drastic cutback in production for Donruss and Fleer in 1984? >>



Compared to 1981-83? Yes.
I never saw Donruss on the shelves in 1984, and Fleer was just as tough for me.
I'll go through my SCDs from 1984 when I get a chance to see what was written then about production. >>



Oh okay, I thought you had some hard data on the issue I didn't know you were just going off your own personal experience as a kid.

I know General Mills sold Donruss in late 1983 to what turned out to be the Leaf conglomerate but I can't find anything suggesting a decrease in production. In fact, I've read that once that happened it was a bit of a boon to Donruss since they had a much larger distribution network when they were combined with Leaf and Beatrice.

I haven't done any research on Fleer though. Although that sounds like it would be a fun project, now that I think about it.

ReggieCleveland

To answer the OP, estimates are that the industry-production went from 500 million/year in the late-1970s to one billion/year in the mid-1980s. Reported sales put Topps at 50%, DOnruss at 25%, and Fleer at just a shade under 25%. That is, of course, what was sold, not necessarily what was produced. I doubt harder data than that exists but it would be fascinating if it ever surfaced.

alnavman

<< <i>That was the rumor at the time. It was that shortage of 84d that led to the shift in demand/premium from Topps to Donruss for the next few years. In truth 84d production was probably no different than 83d, but demand was vastly different due to strawberry and soon after mattingly so supply dried up much faster. >>



agree and the picture quality was so much better in 84 for Donruss.....

doog71

<< <i>To answer the OP, estimates are that the industry-production went from 500 million/year in the late-1970s to one billion/year in the mid-1980s. Reported sales put Topps at 50%, DOnruss at 25%, and Fleer at just a shade under 25%. That is, of course, what was sold, not necessarily what was produced. I doubt harder data than that exists but it would be fascinating if it ever surfaced. >>



Interesting. So far in my limited experience, I'm generally finding it just as easy to locate one brand of '81-'83 product as another. The prices for Topps of course are higher, making me wonder if the better bargain is the Donruss and Fleer - though I'm sure the highest demand will always be for Topps.

DCanfield

Maybe this will give a better idea of '81-'83 availability. Current ebay auctions for wax,cello, and rack boxes:

1981
Topps 4
Donruss 13
Fleer 14

1982
Topps 9
Donruss 9
Fleer 5

1983
Topps 11
Donruss 9
Fleer 7

ClockworkAngel

I find this stuff fascinating and any data or evidence anyone has would really be appreciated.

1984 was a turning point for Donruss and Fleer. It was the year both officially became the more desired card over Topps, remaining that way through the decade. From 1984-1986 it was all about Donruss. From 1987-1989, Fleer was the most in demand set.

Along with others, I assumed it had to do with scaled back production runs but I don't know if that's the case. I just think it might have more to do with design. 1981-1983 Donruss AND Fleer are both garbage. The photos are a joke. 1982 Fleer looks like they hired Stevie Wonder to take the photos as most of them are blurry and faded. 1981 Donruss card stock is the worst ever...paper thin. 1982 and 1983 Donruss and 1983 Fleer are just uninspired and ugly designs.

In 1984, both companies stepped up. In my opinion, Donruss's run from 1984-1986 makes up the 3 most attractive looking sets of the 80's. 1986 Donruss is probably my all time favorite set just in terms of the visual. It's gorgeous. 1984 and 1985 are a close 2nd and 3rd. Fleer also produced much better quality starting in 1984, but it was always a fact that 1984 Donruss was far and away the best. I would love to see any information about production numbers between these companies, but I would venture a guess that there is actually less Fleer produced than Donruss. I have always seen less Fleer from these years and that continues to be the case.

As for Topps, they definitely produced much more than Donruss or Fleer during the decade, but they remained the leader through 1983 because of the garbage that Fleer and Donruss were producing, nothing to do with rarity. The 1983 Topps set is probably Topps best effort in the 80's. But in 1984, everyone wanted the Mattingly in Donruss, then Fleer, and the Topps #8 was a distant 3rd. I think that Mattingly card dictated the card market the next few years and really propelled Donruss to the top, albeit for a limited time. In 1987/1988, Donruss got out of control and produced billions

Nascar360

Don't forget the 1984 Fleer Update Set. It was the set to get and Red HOT for years! That also helped Fleer the following years.

mygotta

I would hazard a guess that one of the things that made Fleer popular in 84 was the rarity of the update set. I dont remember 84 at the time in terms of distribution of cards, but I remember when that set came out. I wonder if, once that set came out, it showed more interest in the regular Fleer set.

stown

<< <i>I find this stuff fascinating and any data or evidence anyone has would really be appreciated. >>



Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever know unless it comes directly from the manufactures. Too much self-interest and this goes back to the mid/late 70s as well. People that are sitting on X product will scream from the rafters "RECORD SETTING PRICES!! BUY NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!1!". Carny barkers are great at getting attention without disclosing their ulterior motives...

It would be so refreshing to mute the hype and see legitimate production numbers.

ClockworkAngel

<< <i>

<< <i>I find this stuff fascinating and any data or evidence anyone has would really be appreciated. >>



Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever know unless it comes directly from the manufactures. Too much self-interest and this goes back to the mid/late 70s as well. People that are sitting on X product will scream from the rafters "RECORD SETTING PRICES!! BUY NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!1!". Carny barkers are great at getting attention without disclosing their ulterior motives...

It would be so refreshing to mute the hype and see legitimate production numbers. >>



I totally agree. I would love to see facts from any of the manufacturers. I really don't understand the motivation of not releasing it, particularly a company like Donruss that went bankrupt. Give us some numbers!!!

parkerj

As someone who was in high school during the '84 timeframe my opinion is that in 84 supply was reduced - you just couldn't find the donruss and fleer product after april. While the topps product was always available anywhere. I agree that 81 donruss and 82 fleer were sub-standard products, but 82-83 donruss and 83 fleer were really nice cards for the era.

The fleer update set came out much later in 84 and it just echoed the trend that had been set in the spring: donruss and fleer were rarer and thus perceived to be more valuable.

Estil

Did anyone ever find out what the production numbers were for the 80s/90s? Obviously at the time card production figures were even more top secret than nuclear launch codes. But surely releasing those numbers now won't hurt anything?

ClockworkAngel

<< <i>Did anyone ever find out what the production numbers were for the 80s/90s? Obviously at the time card production figures were even more top secret than nuclear launch codes. But surely releasing those numbers now won't hurt anything? >>



I would think not, but it seems none of the manufacturers want to give that information out

fur72

I recall a story about packs containing gum Topps vs. Fleer. I think that's how Donruss got diamond kings and Fleer packs contained stickers, in lieu of gum stuffed packs. Doesn't pertain to production numbers but might explain the popularity. Gum that no one ever ate or a sticker or special card?

I know for one in my area in the early 80's Topps was king and I rarely saw Donruss, some Fleer but never Donruss.

ReggieCleveland

Fleer sued Topps in 1975, I believe, challenging their monopoly for MLB player licenses. I believe it went something like they won in 1980 but it got overturned and then they found the loophole in Topps' contract about the bubble gum so Fleer went with stickers and Donruss went with puzzle pieces starting in 1981.

grote15

In 1981, both Fleer and Donruss included gum in their packs, but had to change that in 1982, when they went with stickers and puzzle pieces, respectively.

mygotta

<< <i>I recall a story about packs containing gum Topps vs. Fleer. I think that's how Donruss got diamond kings and Fleer packs contained stickers, in lieu of gum stuffed packs. Doesn't pertain to production numbers but might explain the popularity. Gum that no one ever ate or a sticker or special card?

I know for one in my area in the early 80's Topps was king and I rarely saw Donruss, some Fleer but never Donruss. >>



Donruss did puzzle pieces, not diamond kings. Those were part of the card set.

alnavman

Didn't Donruss do the diamond kings as an insert in a later year? seem to remember that for some goofy reason.....

al.

ReggieCleveland

I believe they were inserts in 1992. Not sure about subsequent years.

mygotta

<< <i>Didn't Donruss do the diamond kings as an insert in a later year? seem to remember that for some goofy reason.....

al. >>



Yes, they did I think for a few years made them limited to (only) 10,000 or other various numbers. Although it seems like a lot by todays standards, given it was 10,000 out of 10 million, they were pretty hard to get.

Comparatively, you can pull a numbered card out of any modern pack but it could be just as worthless as a base common card.

markj111

I recall reading many years ago that in 1984 Donruss produced only what was ordered by its customers. Prior to that they had printed more than had been ordered.

doog71

The consensus seems to be that Topps wins hands down for design from '81-'83. Maybe I'm the minority, but I actually love the simplicity of those Donruss and Fleer designs.

The name on the bat connecting to the baseball mitt from '83 Donruss? Love it. Don't know why. Perhaps I was dropped as a child. But I even love '81 Donruss! Help!