Jack Dempsey "Rookie" question

eagles33

It's tough to tell from the pop report because 1920s appears as 1920. I'm looking for an alternative to the Champions card but don't want post cards or handcut strip cards. I'm leaning towards the Felix card but was just wondering what other people thought.

Big80s

Hey Chad! How do you feel about the Juncosa card? It's bigger than a regular card, but it's definitely not a postcard. It's one of my personal favorites, and I always considered it my Dempsey rookie.

ReggieCleveland

You're basically asking a question that can't be definitively answered. You want his "rookie card" but you don't want to include all forms that are conventionally included. Sounds like you want your own personal version of his rookie card, which would not be his rookie card. Don't feel bad, that's basically the conundrum all pre-war boxing card collectors face. Which is why there's so little emphasis on a fighter's supposed "rookie card." The designation works in post-war or widely distributed sports like baseball but the desirability of a boxer's rookie card is usually far, FAR from high.

I don't believe the U&U were meant as post cards, although they are PC-sized. I've never seen one that was postally used and I've seen quite a lot of them. Of course, there's only two fighters in the "set" and it was obviously a promotional issue of some kind for the Dempsey/Willard fight. But at least we can positively put that in the 1919-1920 range.

Don't go by PSA's pop report. There's more holes in that thing than swiss cheese. Jeff, can you post a scan of the back of the Juncosa? I believe in the past we were able to eliminate an issue date prior to 1923 on that set but I can't find any of the research in my files. All of the other 1920 listings on the pop report (non-strip card) are for 1920's slab info and are almost certainly mid-1920's issues. What surprises me, as I look at the PR now for the first time in a while, is that PSA actually went to the trouble to list the Henry Clay & Bock cards as 1921. Which is odd, since they depict scenes from the film Fight & Win that was released in 1924.

The Dempsey pop report information and player registry has officially jumped the shark and little of the information should be relied upon to be accurate. My suggestion is to find a card that you personally enjoy the most, for whatever reasons (aesthetic, rarity, etc) and embrace that. You'll enjoy it much more.

Big80s

Here we go...

miklia

hey guys! OldManVintageCards (who has since dropped off the radar it appears) pretty conclusively dated the Underwood and Underwood at 1919. That one's got my vote.

ReggieCleveland

<< <i>hey guys! OldManVintageCards (who has since dropped off the radar it appears) pretty conclusively dated the Underwood and Underwood at 1919. That one's got my vote. >>



While this is pretty hard to disagree with I'd be curious as to how he was able to prove it conclusively.

eagles33

I know he has strip cards and early oversized cards.. I'm really just looking for a list of his cards produced from 1919-1922 that psa will grade, that are not handcut and will fit into a standard size psa slab. I'm looking to use that in my own personal "rookie" collection. I completely understand that their is no right or wrong definitive rookie card of many athletes from outside the 4 major sports since everyone could use different criteria. I'm not trying convince anyone that my logic is right or wrong either. My logic actually contradicts its self throughout my collection.. For example I don't want to use the cassius clay hammets card because its handcut or the 47 Cummings ray Robinson because its a drawing but i will use the 1992 diamond sport Phil Michelson which is handcut and a drawing.. Go figure...

ReggieCleveland

I've got no problem with your logic. In fact, I fully endorse it. It sounds like you're collecting what you like which is always a good thing. I guess I just don't understand your use of the term "rookie card." You're asking for a rookie card but at the same time admitting that it isn't a rookie card. But that's semantics.

I think your choices are The Champion and Felix Potin.

eagles33

Thanks.. i've been eyeing the Potin but just wondering if there was anything from 20 or 21. Are the 2 from 1920 really from the "20's" and not 1920 specifically and are any of the cards below handcut? i'm just trying to narrow down the options.. thanks for any info

Year Company Card No. / Series Name / Result Variety / Notes
1920 Cigarros Turquino Serie A 64 Jack Dempsey
1920 Perales Los Ases De La Pantalla 10 Jack Dempsey
1921 Clay And Bock & Co. Film Scenes-Serie Listed 549 Jack Dempsey
1921 Clay And Bock & Co. Film Scenes-Serie Listed 552 Jack Dempsey
1921 Romeo Y Julieta 28 Jack Dempsey White Border
1922 Boys Magazine Boxers N/A Jack Dempsey

Big80s

But this is also a nice early option if you're wanting to stay away from oversized cards:

ReggieCleveland

<< <i>Thanks.. i've been eyeing the Potin but just wondering if there was anything from 20 or 21. Are the 2 from 1920 really from the "20's" and not 1920 specifically and are any of the cards below handcut? i'm just trying to narrow down the options.. thanks for any info

Year Company Card No. / Series Name / Result Variety / Notes
1920 Cigarros Turquino Serie A 64 Jack Dempsey
1920 Perales Los Ases De La Pantalla 10 Jack Dempsey
1921 Clay And Bock & Co. Film Scenes-Serie Listed 549 Jack Dempsey
1921 Clay And Bock & Co. Film Scenes-Serie Listed 552 Jack Dempsey
1921 Romeo Y Julieta 28 Jack Dempsey White Border
1922 Boys Magazine Boxers N/A Jack Dempsey >>



Turquino and Perales are 1920's (at least they should be, neither is a 1920 issue). The Clay and Bock are post-1924. There's been a great deal of diiscussion about the RyJs and no definitive date has been established. I subbed that white border and have no clue what PSA used to determine a 1921 issue date. My guess is they threw a dart against a wall because no one knows much about that issue. That and only one copy is known so I wouldn't hold your breath on obtaining one. Boys Magazine is another possibility for you. I'm fairly certain none of the cards you listed are hand cut (the only one I'm not sure of is Boys Magazine and that's because they frequently pop up trimmed).

ReggieCleveland

Jeff, the Juncosa is post-1924, probably at least 1925. The back bio references his inclusion in Pathe's film Daredevil Jack and also his Universal serial Fight & Win (released in June, 1924). Pretty cool that they mention he was paid $1M for the Universal serial. I didn't know that.

ReggieCleveland

Here's part of the Google translation, if you're interested:

"Over the years grew his fondness for boxing, taking part in meetings at odds, until defeated Carpentier in 1921, was proclaimed world champion, a title it retains today. In the wake of winning the championship, was hired by the Pathe house to impress one series ea fifteen episodes that title "Dead or alive." Lately Universal impressed for ten films, in two parts each, called Fight and Win, for which he has taken 1,000,000 dollars."

eagles33

Thanks for the info guys. I like the potin card. Is the RyJ from Cuba?

ReggieCleveland

<< <i>Thanks for the info guys. I like the potin card. Is the RyJ from Cuba? >>



Yes. I think there's a handful of black borders known but only one white border. Different images on both, although they're both #28.

ReggieCleveland

I would recommend picking up a copy of Adam Warshaw's book.