How to bargain question?
tneig
Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭
Here's another one on how to bargain?
I walk into a B&M or small silver/pm dealer or even a flea market dealer, and ask how much for the bars or such?
I get a price of $4+ over spot on silver bars, including generic art bars. Sometimes more.
Now I want them to make money and have a good business and not insult them, but I want to pay +$1
(otherwise just get them on a online special or my fav pawn shop)
I walk into a B&M or small silver/pm dealer or even a flea market dealer, and ask how much for the bars or such?
I get a price of $4+ over spot on silver bars, including generic art bars. Sometimes more.
Now I want them to make money and have a good business and not insult them, but I want to pay +$1
(otherwise just get them on a online special or my fav pawn shop)
COA
0
Comments
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Make your best buy offer and move on. >>
Yep, offer them the +$1 you want to pay. No harm done if they say no.
I understand they need to make money, I understand they have bills and I understand they have overhead. When I'm buying, usually it's from the lowest seller, the lowest seller is on line. If they were close to what I could get on line I would buy local...
<< <i>
<< <i>Make your best buy offer and move on. >>
Yep, offer them the +$1 you want to pay. No harm done if they say no. >>
This is where they all act offended. I asked one dealer if he had a discount if larger quantities were purchased and he actually got loud saying his prices were good enough if you buy 1 oz or 1000 oz the price is the same.
how many of u guys "bargain" when u pay your electric bill, water bill, cell phone bill, cable/sat tv bill, at the supermarket buying food, milk etc, at the gas station filling your tank, making your rent or mortgage payment, etc, etc, etc...
another observation,
most people have pissed away somewhere, on something(any drink ever at any bar, resort, restaurant, gas station, gambling, eating out ever in one's lifetime, etc..), any premium they think they are trying to save,
when buying/exchanging usd for pm...
<< <i>lol,
how many of u guys "bargain" when u pay your electric bill, water bill, cell phone bill, cable/sat tv bill, at the supermarket buying food, milk etc, at the gas station filling your tank, making your rent or mortgage payment, etc, etc, etc...
another observation,
most people have pissed away somewhere, on something(any drink ever at any bar, resort, restaurant, gas station, gambling, eating out ever in one's lifetime, etc..), any premium they think they are trying to save,
when buying/exchanging usd for pm... >>
Apples and Oranges hero, the PM price fluctuates daily but the main reason you SHOULD bargain shop is the "Premiums" that dealers feel they are due. No disrespect to dealers but if they think they can add whatever premium they feel they deserve, then we as buyers should be able to pay whatever we think is fair.
Show me you're legit by making a real world offer and let's get something done, otherwise, go fish somewhere else.
<< <i>Apples and Oranges hero, the PM price fluctuates daily but the main reason you SHOULD bargain shop is the "Premiums" that dealers feel they are due. No disrespect to dealers but if they think they can add whatever premium they feel they deserve, then we as buyers should be able to pay whatever we think is fair. >>
so i think what your are saying or implying...
is that at anytime you specifically buy anything, at any store, at anytime, you are the dictator of price that you pay...
let me know how that goes the next time you pay for gas...or anything else for that matter...
seems to be somewhat delusional thinking...
<< <i>I agree with rawteam1. If you want, or need, something bad enough, you'll pay what the market is dictating. >>
--Obviously this is true with anything.
<< <i>And none of this "no buyer, no sale" crap! >>
--I don't know what this means.
<< <i>If you truly want it, and you've done your homework and know what the current value is, make a fair offer... >>
--I 100% agree, this is how it should be.
<< <i>and please don't come to me with the, "well (burp, fart) Spot is X amount" either. You're a tire kicker trying to get over on someone who knows what the real world value is. Please go away.
--This may come to be a surprise to you but not all dealers are on the up and up. Just like a buyer wants to pay the least, MOST dealers want you to pay the most. The "real world value" is what someone is willing to pay, not what a dealer wants to sell it at.
<< <i>Show me you're legit by making a real world offer and let's get something done, otherwise, go fish somewhere else. >>
--Here we are with the real world offer again.
Point in case.
I went to two shops in my town in the same week and asked what it costs for their ASEs.
Store 1: $5.95 over spot. They dealer went onto AMPEX, found the highest priced ASE turned the computer screen to me and said, "See, this is what I am charging, just like they are on APMEX, but I don't charge shipping". I did not buy any because I thought that was excessive. I went home and looked up the prices myself figuring I could watch the price and when I felt comfortable I could go back and buy at the price I wanted to pay. This is when I found that he searched out the highest priced date ASE and told me that he sells ALL his ASEs at this price regardless of the date. This guy also quoted silver once at $35 when SPOT was mid 20's.
Store 2: Charges 3% over to sell and buys them at 3% under. Now 3% over isn't that bad but without telling you he adds another 9.5% for taxes... Maybe still not bad. But to buy at 3% under spot when ASEs clearly hold a premium there is like a six dollar spread in there somewhere... that is IF he claims the taxes because most purchases are cash purchases (Mind you he did not give me a receipt when I made a purchase).
My point is, the "real world offer" that you are talking about should be at least close to one another in the same city but they were a couple dollars per ounce different on any given day. I'm not saying we as buyers should go in an ask for bottom dollar, we should be educated (As you mentioned), know that spot is X and the average premium for said bullion is Y, add them together and make an offer. Sounds fair to me.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Apples and Oranges hero, the PM price fluctuates daily but the main reason you SHOULD bargain shop is the "Premiums" that dealers feel they are due. No disrespect to dealers but if they think they can add whatever premium they feel they deserve, then we as buyers should be able to pay whatever we think is fair. >>
so i think what your are saying or implying...
is that at anytime you specifically buy anything, at any store, at anytime, you are the dictator of price that you pay...
let me know how that goes the next time you pay for gas...or anything else for that matter...
seems to be somewhat delusional thinking... >>
ummm... No, I am saying the opposite. Most items are at fixed prices that we pay such as gas, food etc. I bolded above what I was talking about. Precious Metals.
Also, what has been mentioned, if we as buyers do not like the prices of the fixed items, we have the option to walk away. For example, there is a certain gas station that is out of the way (Only a street away from the main strip in my town) that ALWAYS has the best gas prices. Knowing this, I have the option to go to this gas station or pay the higher prices down the street by the highway (Closer to where I live).
Nice play on argumentative words by the way,
<< <i>at anytime you specifically buy anything, at any store, at anytime, you are the dictator of price that you pay... >>
This is what I call a left wing argument. Regardless of what is stated in a conversation, the other party brings it to the extreme to try to prove their point or to belittle the other... Lighten up, this was not meant to be an argument. A question was asked and I answered with my own experiences.
<< <i>I want to buy gasoline for $2.99 a gallon. Why do they want so mucyh? >>
They tell me it's because of the taxes...
<< <i>ummm... No, I am saying the opposite. Most items are at fixed prices that we pay such as gas, food etc. I bolded above what I was talking about. Precious Metals.
Also, what has been mentioned, if we as buyers do not like the prices of the fixed items, we have the option to walk away. For example, there is a certain gas station that is out of the way (Only a street away from the main strip in my town) that ALWAYS has the best gas prices. Knowing this, I have the option to go to this gas station or pay the higher prices down the street by the highway (Closer to where I live).
>>
its not an argument, it just doesnt make any sense...
i guess what i should ask why you think the "pm" market is any different from any other one...
and in your above quotes that refer to buying, why is the fixed price of any other market not the same as the fixed price of any dealer?...
also if u do go down the highway to buy, do u calculate time, burning of fuel, etc to equate or get added into to your net price?...
and if you decide to buy more than 1 thing at any specific time, do you possibly only buy the known lowest priced one(s), and then go somewhere else to buy the rest and possibly make 2,3,4,5,6, or more trips depending on how many things you buy to make sure you got the lowest price?... and then also add in all time, fuel etc costs to final purchase?...
i guess my point is its pretty much impossible to do... and if one is buying/exchanging cash for pm's or anything else
there really is no difference...
<< <i>
This is what I call a left wing argument. Regardless of what is stated in a conversation, the other party brings it to the extreme to try to prove their point or to belittle the other... Lighten up, this was not meant to be an argument. A question was asked and I answered with my own experiences. >>
i'd say its more of a common sense issue...
THIS is by far, in my opinion, the biggest and most important factor of it all. Once again PerryHall nailed it
You may be in love with "it" and pay up to have it, but that doesn't mean anyone else is.
So when it comes time to sell, you may be in for a reality check, if you didn't do your homework before you bought "it".
The point is, sure, pay a premium to say you own it, but within reason.
Anyway, I'll tell you what I tell anyone who I can't see eye to eye with after the matter being discussed in a civil manner. Thank you and I hope that you've learned something out of this as I have, we just aren't going to agree on this, so let's both do ourself a favor and not begin to pick each others words apart and move on because I'm sure both of our time is more valuable than disagreeing this on a chat board.
<< <i>I want to buy gasoline for $2.99 a gallon. Why do they want so mucyh? >>
If someone was selling gas for that, your request would seem legit to me.
I usually don't bargain. If I don't think the price is fair, I don't buy.
B&M in NY have high prices, rents play their part.
<< <i>Here's another one on how to bargain?
I walk into a B&M or small silver/pm dealer or even a flea market dealer, and ask how much for the bars or such?
I get a price of $4+ over spot on silver bars, including generic art bars. Sometimes more.
Now I want them to make money and have a good business and not insult them, but I want to pay +$1
(otherwise just get them on a online special or my fav pawn shop) >>
---------------------------
Are you are buying every-so-often one or two ounces or 1000 ounces each and every week?
Flea market 'dealers' (sic) and what I understand by the term "B+M" are not merely worlds, but galaxies apart.
You want to pay +$1. They want to pay the taxes, rent, light and gas bill, buy groceries, and hopefully send their kids to college.
----
All on your dollar above spot.
------
Because after all you "want them to make money and have a good business".
A Sunday Denver Post costs $2.00 around here these days. (Still worth it though)
<< <i>
<< <i>I want to buy gasoline for $2.99 a gallon. Why do they want so mucyh? >>
If someone was selling gas for that, your request would seem legit to me.
I usually don't bargain. If I don't think the price is fair, I don't buy.
B&M in NY have high prices, rents play their part. >>
Where I live most gas stations are charging $3.49 or more for regular. A new convenience store just opened up about a half a mile from here, and to encourage new customers they are selling regular for $3.39. Good marketing.
Do I have the right to complain that the guy ten miles down the road sells gas at $3.49 because that is the going rate in the regional market? No. If somebody just passing through happens upon the station with the cheap gas, congratulations for him. However, that does not give him a reasonable expectation that every other station in the market will be selling gas at the same price.
I was in retail coin shops for 25 years. During that time there were times when we would sell 100 ounce Englehards for less than spot for cash or check because there was no demand for them and it was cheaper than shipping them and getting under spot from the refiner.
That was then. This is now. Time marches on.
Premiums rise and fall with the market. There is nothing wrong with asking a dealer "Do you have any deals in silver today?" on the chance that he might have just bought in a deal, but don't expect him to sell it to you at under his replacement price just to be a nice guy.
That's why I was surprised that you compare B&M stores with Gas stations.
Silver doesn't sell at a MSRP, it goes with spot + a premium which is decided by the seller.
Bargaining is the rule for what I have read during my little experience (again, I usually don't bargain).
My point was exactly the last part of your post (my english sometimes doesn't allow me to understand well or express myself properly).
I am sorry if I came out in the wrong way.
<< <i>i think gas is sold the same... spot + the premium... >>
Even if it is, I think we are comparing apples and oranges from a market standpoint. jmho
wholesale also for that matter...
<< <i>i think there is a strong case for everything sold at retail is spot + a premium...
wholesale also for that matter... >>
I was just saying that bargaining is commonly accepted at a B&M store selling precious metals and coins and is not at a gas station or at a clothing store.
That all the markets are similar is a fact, even though they have different shades.
I do bargain in my business as well, either to sell more or to pay less for a service. Nobody thinks it is inappropriate. Doing it at a gas station is inappropriate, based on general consensus and common sense. It may change and become the norm, who knows.
I prefer prices clearly marked for clarity and simplicity, but that's not the standard situation.
However, when unmarked, the price seem to float depending upon who walks in the door - so it 'Frames the Game' as a negotiating atmosphere w caution, like a car deal.
"Do you have any deals in silver today?"... Seem like a nice opening if the price seems too high, and I'll use that one next time.
My latest is learning how to buy/bid at auctions, which seem to go above the normal price sometimes! I have to learn to be quick to get my bid in quickly and stop when it goes beyond a good deal, and let the chips fall..... I missed some eagles at $22.50 and regretted it, and didn't rebid at $25. I didn't bid on Silver dollars that hit $27 and didn't understand the "choice" option (used to grap the few best and reject the ones not wanted).. Its like poker, this bidding stuff...
<< <i>I did not make the seller techniques. I'm discovering what they are, since often prices are not marked, and how to deal in that atmosphere, since I'm forced to.
I prefer prices clearly marked for clarity and simplicity, but that's not the standard situation.
However, when unmarked, the price seem to float depending upon who walks in the door - so it 'Frames the Game' as a negotiating atmosphere w caution, like a car deal.
"Do you have any deals in silver today?"... Seem like a nice opening if the price seems too high, and I'll use that one next time.
My latest is learning how to buy/bid at auctions, which seem to go above the normal price sometimes! I have to learn to be quick to get my bid in quickly and stop when it goes beyond a good deal, and let the chips fall..... I missed some eagles at $22.50 and regretted it, and didn't rebid at $25. I didn't bid on Silver dollars that hit $27 and didn't understand the "choice" option (used to grap the few best and reject the ones not wanted).. Its like poker, this bidding stuff... >>
Marked as in a fixed dollar amount, or marked as a premium such as "Spot plus $4"?
<< <i>Marked as in a fixed dollar amount, or marked as a premium such as "Spot plus $4"? >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Gas station buyers do not expect to bargain for gas.
Real estate buyers do expect to bargain. Auto dealers expect to bargain with buyers.
Coins and PMs are an area where bargaining is expected. Who goes
to a coin show and just sees something and buys it?
<< <i>It's silly to compare a gas station to a coin shop. Some markets sell products where the price is usually negotiable such as real estate, antiques, art, rare coins, and used or new cars. Bullion is a good place to do price comparisons. If you can buy bullion from an internet source for a smaller premium and you don't mind waiting awhile for delivery, I see no problem just passing on buying at your local coin shop and buying from one of the several major bullion dealers on the internet. >>
The difference is that gas stations control their supply. When they get below "X" gallons in the tank, they call their local distributor and order another delivery. They never have a truck just show up and fill up buckets with gasoline sitting around the property. That would be time for a "fire sale."
Coin shops generally buy in whatever walks in the door. That means that they sometimes do have buckets of stuff sitting around the property. When they do, they sell it at great prices just to move some of it. That's when the "Got any good deals in silver (or gold)?" question works wonders.
However, if you walk into the shop and his supply tank is getting down near "X" ounces, don't expect any deals, and don't go complaining to the forums that you didn't get a fire sale price that day.
Also true that buying in volume does have power. Far more likely to get a better price if you "buy it all" as opposed to selectively picking. The same is usually true when buying coin deals. I can't tell you how many times I wanted only a few items but ended up buying hundreds because I new the seller would frown on cherry picking or price them to the moon. In the end, buying even the items I did not want, I still did well by simply turning them over at cost or a small profit, sometimes even a loss that did not matter because I got the items I really wanted.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I was just told this yesterday. "Why should I sell to you even if you do buy it all when I can make more from "the public" walking thru the door selling a few items at a time, and they dont even haggle with me."
It was said in a friendly manner, and I've done business with the guy for 13+ years now, but he was making a point, which I got.
Then he hit me with the old "replacement cost" riot act, which I always stop him short on by saying, "You've got so many contacts, you could buy whatever you want FOR whatever you want." To which he gives me the smug smile confirming.
Also true that buying in volume does have power. Far more likely to get a better price if you "buy it all" as opposed to selectively picking
This is true most of the time, certainly not all. Lots of variables go into it from the dealers point of view, i.e., the old "replacement cost" riot act.
This has been some good discussion, hasn't gotten too out of hand lol. It was an extremely good question by tneig that we may take for granted. There certainly is an art to negotiating, but what I feel is most important to do BEFORE you start negotiating is to build that relationship first. Talk about other interests than what you're there for at the B&M, talk about family and how everyone's doing. Some B&M's may not have the time for that, and I understand that to some degree, they're running a business. You may have to just do business one time, but the next time you're in there and see the guy has some time, make it a point to talk about other things...build the relationship.
Please tell me where my former employer can buy monster boxes of silver eagle and be able to tell the official distributor what price he wants to pay over spot, vs. the official distributor's asking price. I will be happy to pass it along to him.
ok, let me ask you this then. Would you rather be the first buyer from the offiical distributor who sets the original price, or the the 50th guy who's bought the same box?
yes, the replacement cost riot act is valid. Point is, it gets real old hearing every single time I want to "buy it all". Who is taking the risk when a buyer buys it all?
u bargain with your local pm dealers or face to face ones, but you cant bargain with the big online pm dealers...
man all that for that...
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
It is not my intention to start up another heated argument but I would like to answer a few questions and make a few points.
<< <i>its not an argument, it just doesnt make any sense...
i guess what i should ask why you think the "pm" market is any different from any other one...
and in your above quotes that refer to buying, why is the fixed price of any other market not the same as the fixed price of any dealer?... >>
Simply because in my experience, the "fixed" prices of a dealer are on the dealers specific situation (i.e. What they paid for the item, how long they sat on the item, how much overhead they have, how many bills are due etc, these determine their individual premium). Keep in mind, in my experience, most if not all dealers will "Work with you" when coming to a price on most items in their B&M. To me, this is common practice though as of late with the down turn of the PM market this has become someone less (Talking coins and Precious Metals).
<< <i>also if u do go down the highway to buy, do u calculate time, burning of fuel, etc to equate or get added into to your net price?...
and if you decide to buy more than 1 thing at any specific time, do you possibly only buy the known lowest priced one(s), and then go somewhere else to buy the rest and possibly make 2,3,4,5,6, or more trips depending on how many things you buy to make sure you got the lowest price?... and then also add in all time, fuel etc costs to final purchase?... >>
This is what I really wanted to comment on. For the gas station, I loosely average to save $$. Knowing that the gas station averages $.08-$.10 cheaper I usually fill up whenever I pass the gas station which is usually at least once per week. With a 14 gallon SUV, I save about a buck by doing so. As for time... This equates into my life because on average, I will stop at the gas station once per week, since I am not going too far out of my way (We're talking seconds because this particular gas station is near the center of town). Burning of fuel is marginal, the added weight of holding a full tank of fuel is marginal, the negative force of the sloshing fuel in the tank is marginal and I even have taught myself to not drive with a heavy foot (Save for the rear occasion).
As for buying more than one thing at a time. I have my purchases grouped up into a few locations and usually pick them up when I am at the store (I feel most people do this). I usually have at least one extra in the house except for the fruits and vegetables that spoil quicker but we have a Publix within a mile from our home that we go to for our weekly fresh food purchase. I am pretty frugal in my ways but the bottom line is, everyone wastes some money at some point (The example you gave of having a drink at a restaurant is a good example, that said, I usually drink water at a restaurant, however last night I had a glass of red wine). That said, I do the best I can to conserve money where I can, so I have the money to spend on the fixed prices that I can not negotiate or the "Extra spending" that I WANT to spend such as the 22% tip that we gave the waiter last night for his excellent service (I usually tip well). My point is the balance of being conservative and spending.
If I walked into one store and purchased everything without looking at prices across different stores I would usually pay top dollar for a lot of items. For example, as I understand it, a gas station makes very little on the gas they sell, it's the over priced stuff that they have in the store that they make their money. A gallon of milk at the gas station could be as much as $6 but only $4 at the Publix across the street.
<< <i>i guess my point is its pretty much impossible to do... >>
In the extreme example that you offered of buying one item at one location then driving to another location to buy another item that is cheapest... Yes, that is impossible due to many constraints such as you mentioned, time, fuel etc. But as a consumer, we learn who usually has the best prices on toilet paper and tend to buy from them when we are at that location. Or, we tend to know what the average price it is that we pay for said toilet paper and when we see it on sale, we buy a larger quantity.
<< <i>...and if one is buying/exchanging cash for pm's or anything else there really is no difference... >>
In my experience, this statement is inaccurate. As I mentioned about the fuel, and shopping around for toilet paper, I buy most of my PMs from the places that I can get it at the best price (Which honestly is on line or on the PCGS forum).
I will offer this, my exposure to B&Ms and coin shows is limited, and thus do most of my comparison with on line dealers whom usually have better prices (Due to wider market I presume). Also, I live in a town where the local shops prey on the Military by raising their prices on most items in comparison to shops within a 50 mile radius (Which is why the post builds an "Off-Limits" list and the Soldiers are not allowed to enter these establishments for one reason or another).
<< <i>mrpaseo, you seem like a level headed guy. I remember when you came on the PM forum recently eventhough you have been on the site for 12 years, You asked alot of questions, and it seems like you've learned alot in a relatively short period of time. You sure you weren't just playing coy (not sure if that's how it's spelled) upon your arrival
First and foremost, thank you. I can assure you that I was new to precious metals when I started posting on the Precious Metals forum. My days on the PCGS forum started by me searching for a coin forum many long years ago. I found that I liked this place the best (My main web page has been PCGS since I found this place and now my main web page is this specific forum...lol). Shortly after finding the PCGS forums, I started spending a lot of time on the "Open Forum" (Of which is no longer due to too many heated arguments... I mean threads). I have dabbled on the dark side forums, the Metal Detecting forums and now mainly the Precious Metal forums all dependent on what is going on in my collection and my life.
<< <i>Anyway, I'll tell you what I tell anyone who I can't see eye to eye with after the matter being discussed in a civil manner. Thank you and I hope that you've learned something out of this as I have, we just aren't going to agree on this, so let's both do ourself a favor and not begin to pick each others words apart and move on because I'm sure both of our time is more valuable than disagreeing this on a chat board. >>
Well said, I do my best to not be confrontational, especially on these forums (I really only frequent one other forum on the norm and there is hardly any arguments over there). Overall my intentions (As it has always been) on these boards is to learn and share my experiences as well as make a few "Internet" like minded friends (In this case, interested in Precious Metals). The occasional heated conversation does not sway my feelings/opinions of anyone as I feel we all contribute to the conversation if not only to counter our individual biased opinions and to get us thinking a little bit.
I also understand that with just writing and the inability to see expressions that our message can sometimes be misunderstood. Keeping this in mind, I try to bite my tongue and better explain my point. Finally, I know it is unrealistic for me to think that everyone will agree with my thoughts/opinions as each one of us grew up different with different experiences that got us to this point. I enjoy not only talking with like minded, but also with those that contradict what I think so I can learn. Which is, what the original reason I came to this forum was many long years ago.