Scary Scam - Beware
MattyC
Posts: 1,335 ✭✭
We've all discussed this in the past from various angles, but just came across this link as well...
This is the main reason why I exclusively purchase from consistent sellers/AHs, who have the knowledge to detect these things, and who value their long-term reputations over the profit from a single sale. Much in the same way we wouldn't buy expensive fine art or rare wine or a rare Rolex or Patek from just anyone. Certain retail outlets may be pricier than the seeming random sale on ebay, but you do get some valuable piece of mind.
As concerning as this is, aside from-- hopefully-- future improvements in design, one can defend well against this by being selective in choosing sellers, and reviewing high-end cards within the return window of a purchase.
Scam
This is the main reason why I exclusively purchase from consistent sellers/AHs, who have the knowledge to detect these things, and who value their long-term reputations over the profit from a single sale. Much in the same way we wouldn't buy expensive fine art or rare wine or a rare Rolex or Patek from just anyone. Certain retail outlets may be pricier than the seeming random sale on ebay, but you do get some valuable piece of mind.
As concerning as this is, aside from-- hopefully-- future improvements in design, one can defend well against this by being selective in choosing sellers, and reviewing high-end cards within the return window of a purchase.
Scam
0
Comments
Bosox1976
I agree with your comment about buying from reputable dealers. I find myself migrating towards dealers that I know, or have a reputable name in the hobby for my purchases. What continues to bother me overall about this, is the lack of comment/information/transparency as to what PSA is doing to combat this. These fake holders/breached holders/fake flips have become a real concern for me. In my opinion, PSA needs to drastically change the holder they use. You do not see this with SGC or BGS holdered cards because you can not crack those holders without damaging the holder to the point that its obvious that the holder has been compromised.
Edit: To clarify my original sentence.
As stated I know this has come up in the past in other forms, but I felt the clarity of the issue's presentation on that site-- as well as the photos and level of detail-- warranted mention here. Apologies if this is old hat to some of us.
Best,
Matt
AS far as I am concerned, this information could be posted daily, and I would not think it was posted enough. You and I have very similar collecting interests, and I can honestly tell you, that I am concerned. I have gotten to the point, where I am asking two or three people to look over cards I might be purchasing, if they are coming from someone that I don't know or recognize as a reputable dealer.
I almost got scammed by this guy twice and did a lot of homework each time prevent it. His slabs are VERY GOOD now.
The following two pictures are his creations, imagine that someone sent these scans to you. What steps would you take to make sure everything was legit? A couple of these were even added to the registry. Like Matty said, it's good to know who you are dealing with.
Most of the cards he puts in his slabs are real cards, just trimmed to look sharp. Try measuring them or superimposing them over legitimate cards in Photoshop.
Some of the cards, however, are not real and are just reproduced in large quantity. Like these...
and these...
The Secret Service and FBI know about this guy but he's just sitting deep down south in Mexico and using random pawns in the US to perform his transactions. He's very bad for the hobby. The best we can do is educate each other.
Scary.
I'd also like to thank Curt for putting together such a nice, concise explanation of this scam.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
I would not have purchased any of those cards being shown, for the reason of the pins being popped on the sides.
We need to stay one step ahead of these crooks.
I downloaded a Barcode Scanner app and sure enough that works! Makes me want to go check all of my cards.
Whats stopping people from cracking the slabs, swapping the cards, using the original flip, and just re-subbing the original card? Vicious circle.
As troubling as it is-- and that is very-- collectors like all of us have the ultimate defense against this: and this two-phase defense is in fact 100% foolproof. Though I am not saying changes should not be made to improve from PSA's end. They should take proactive measures as well.
Phase one is to buy from sellers we know, sellers who are in it for the long haul and not a quick score. Sellers who know what to look for, and who will make good on return if indeed a bad slab got past them. The major AHs fall into this category, the major individuals like Tony Arnold or Steve Novella to quickly name two, the major ebay sellers like obviously Rick and PWCC. And once in hand-- phase two is that PSA is there to review any card and confirm it is legit. I have taken the one or two big cards I've bought from relatively lesser-known sellers on ebay in for PSA review for just that piece of mind.
Personally, and this is just my own philosophy-- this is also why I have begun more and more to rely less on the grade or slab and more on my own eye. An inaccurately graded card, regardless of what the label says, will not hold its value should the landscape of TPGs suffer tectonic shifts, such as in who is the market leader. For all we know, in ten years' time a new entity can emerge on the scene with a vastly superior operation, or something could happen to erode the current landscape. I thus want cards whose assigned grade is so solid and accurate that the odds of any eventual cross are great. I want cards whose value is not tied solely to their subjectively assigned grade-- i.e., an overgraded 10.
Because I am so risk-averse, I find myself gravitating toward cards that are valuable even in a low grade-- as opposed to condition-rare cards whose values are primarily based on the subjective opinion of a grader, who may have been overly generous that day. If-- god-forbid-- something were to change and say some new company became the move in a decade or two, I want cards I know will cross. And let's all face it: it is MUCH easier for a 1 to cross to a 1 than a 10 to a 10. The higher the grade and the more value is tied to the grade, the more subjectivity comes into play. But take a POOR grade Balt News Ruth or Wagner as an extreme example: these are cards whose value is tied into their sheer existence. Or a CJ Cobb or a Ruth RC or even Mantles.
A fellow collector once used this example on me, and I found it quite compelling: he said take a card like a PSA 10 Ozzie RC that sold for 30K or a PSA 10 Henderson that sells for 10K. Now crack it out and assume that very same card is put up for sale, and for argument's sake deemed totally legit and unaltered in any way. There is just no way it sells for that same amount. Hence much of the value is in the flip, created by the TPG. Now let's take say the Just So Tobacco Cy Young card. Or a 52 Mantle PSA 2. Or a 1914 CJ Cobb PSA 3. Those cards would sell for much closer to their slabbed sale price when cracked raw than the high-grade 10. I find that a very interesting study on intrinsic value based on true rarity meeting demand, versus the case of a card that is readily obtainable in condition that is nearly identical to the condition-rarity of the 10-state.
But again, this last part is just my personal taste and collecting direction: but to me it is all about the card as opposed to the holder. If the card is accurately graded at any grade: fantastic. But we see overgraded cards command bigtime money all the time just because of the blinding flip, and that to me is a big risk, putting all the value in the flip.
To me, a grading company's holder is akin to a frame and the card is the painting. I care about the painting very much; the frame not so much.
I mean, how many times have we seen a 9 we'd take over a 10, or a 1 we'd take over many 2s? Lots. And one way to have insurance against flake slabs changing the TPG landscape is to select cards with great eye appeal-- because collector's eyes will be around much longer than any company.
<< <i>After reading this article I will be closely watching the amount of PSA cards that I purchase. I do not work hard every day to make money to purchase fake or altered cards. If PSA does not find a way to combat this or develop a new card holder than this could be the end of graded cards. There has to be a better holder that is safer from this. I thank the person that posted this article as I spend alot of money on cards and now will probably be buying BGS from now on as their holders are bullet proof. >>
Hi,
It would never be the end of graded cards, as there are already two other solid companies who do not have this fake slab issue, and whose cards sell for legit sums routinely. Also, if you buy from top-notch sellers and review anything suspect within a return window, you will likely be AOK.
I think that as troubling as this is for PSA as a company, cards and the hobby are far, far greater than any one company. And in a country like our great country, if someone rests on their laurels and fails to evolve with a market's or customers' needs, then an already-existing or wholly new entity can and usually will rise up and get the job done right. It happens all the time in many businesses. So I think it's important to not put so much stock into any one TPG, and instead make it all about the cards.
A gorgeous, legit card will hold its value no matter if it is in a PSA 9 slab today or TPG LEADER X 9 slab in twenty years from now.
I've cut down my buying and try my best to look for provenance as best I can with my graded cards or graded packs. For me my best defense against this has been to
reduce my buying. If you can't get peace of mind in a hobby one is suppose to enjoy then something is definitely wrong.
aconte
<< <i>I could put forward a monetary reason complete with conspiracy theories why PSA will not upgrade their slabs, but, I might get banned.
There's definitely SOMETHING fishy going on. There has to be. There is absolutely NO good reason for them to allow this to continue for so long. This stuff is bad for anyone who buys PSA graded cards and bad for the hobby in general, yet they continue to do NOTHING about it. It's absolutely astounding.
Incidentally there was this rather interesting poll across the street at Net54...
Poll Regarding TPGs
<< <i>Are those slabs missing the embossed PSA logo in the bottom-right? I can't tell, nor would I think to look for that when normally buying a card.
I downloaded a Barcode Scanner app and sure enough that works! Makes me want to go check all of my cards.
Whats stopping people from cracking the slabs, swapping the cards, using the original flip, and just re-subbing the original card? Vicious circle. >>
That was done about a decade ago before the perpetrators were caught.
I don't think just high grade cards are targets for this kind of enterprise, either. Lower grade counterfeit and/or doctored cards of great value are just as likely to be utilized.
Personally, I would love to see BGS's holder with PSA's grading criteria. The best of both worlds.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Poll Regarding TPGs
The results of that poll are not surprising, given that SGC is the grader of choice for pre-war cards and that message board consists (primarily) of pre-war collectors who have a definite bias vs PSA and are not at all interested in modern cards (anything 1960s or later) in general.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Ergo, those fakes would fool many of us. Myself included.
As troubling as it is-- and that is very-- collectors like all of us have the ultimate defense against this: and this two-phase defense is in fact 100% foolproof. Though I am not saying changes should not be made to improve from PSA's end. They should take proactive measures as well.
Phase one is to buy from sellers we know, sellers who are in it for the long haul and not a quick score. Sellers who know what to look for, and who will make good on return if indeed a bad slab got past them. The major AHs fall into this category, the major individuals like Tony Arnold or Steve Novella to quickly name two, the major ebay sellers like obviously Rick and PWCC. And once in hand-- phase two is that PSA is there to review any card and confirm it is legit. I have taken the one or two big cards I've bought from relatively lesser-known sellers on ebay in for PSA review for just that piece of mind.
Personally, and this is just my own philosophy-- this is also why I have begun more and more to rely less on the grade or slab and more on my own eye. An inaccurately graded card, regardless of what the label says, will not hold its value should the landscape of TPGs suffer tectonic shifts, such as in who is the market leader. For all we know, in ten years' time a new entity can emerge on the scene with a vastly superior operation, or something could happen to erode the current landscape. I thus want cards whose assigned grade is so solid and accurate that the odds of any eventual cross are great. I want cards whose value is not tied solely to their subjectively assigned grade-- i.e., an overgraded 10.
Because I am so risk-averse, I find myself gravitating toward cards that are valuable even in a low grade-- as opposed to condition-rare cards whose values are primarily based on the subjective opinion of a grader, who may have been overly generous that day. If-- god-forbid-- something were to change and say some new company became the move in a decade or two, I want cards I know will cross. And let's all face it: it is MUCH easier for a 1 to cross to a 1 than a 10 to a 10. The higher the grade and the more value is tied to the grade, the more subjectivity comes into play. But take a POOR grade Balt News Ruth or Wagner as an extreme example: these are cards whose value is tied into their sheer existence. Or a CJ Cobb or a Ruth RC or even Mantles.
A fellow collector once used this example on me, and I found it quite compelling: he said take a card like a PSA 10 Ozzie RC that sold for 30K or a PSA 10 Henderson that sells for 10K. Now crack it out and assume that very same card is put up for sale, and for argument's sake deemed totally legit and unaltered in any way. There is just no way it sells for that same amount. Hence much of the value is in the flip, created by the TPG. Now let's take say the Just So Tobacco Cy Young card. Or a 52 Mantle PSA 2. Or a 1914 CJ Cobb PSA 3. Those cards would sell for much closer to their slabbed sale price when cracked raw than the high-grade 10. I find that a very interesting study on intrinsic value based on true rarity meeting demand, versus the case of a card that is readily obtainable in condition that is nearly identical to the condition-rarity of the 10-state.
But again, this last part is just my personal taste and collecting direction: but to me it is all about the card as opposed to the holder. If the card is accurately graded at any grade: fantastic. But we see overgraded cards command bigtime money all the time just because of the blinding flip, and that to me is a big risk, putting all the value in the flip.
To me, a grading company's holder is akin to a frame and the card is the painting. I care about the painting very much; the frame not so much.
I mean, how many times have we seen a 9 we'd take over a 10, or a 1 we'd take over many 2s? Lots. And one way to have insurance against flake slabs changing the TPG landscape is to select cards with great eye appeal-- because collector's eyes will be around much longer than any company. >>
Great post. This whole scam is very concerning to me as well. The level of sophistication is downright scary. Like you, I focus more on lower graded cards with nice eye appeal. But even those cards could have the monetary incentive to fake so caution still needs to be taken. I also agree 100% with the mantra of buy the card and not the holder. I wish I had learned that lesson earlier in my collecting life. I cringe at some of the beautiful lower grade cards I passed on because they were not graded higher.
Again, thanks for posting and bringing some attention to this issue.
Just to clarify: I believe any card of value is a potential target, even low grade ones. My preference for say a nice eye appealing PSA 4 Mantle 52T over a PSA 10 Ozzie Smith RC with a slight tilt (or any tiny flaw that could make it less than GEM MT to anyone's eyes) lies in that should there ever be a need to cross based on shifts in the TPG landscape, it is easier to cross a 4 to a 4 than a 10 to a 10. And there is such a massive decline in value when we are talking about 10s becoming 9s, than say your 4 becoming a 3.5. Lower grade cards with value like say a VG Goudey Ruth leave things less in the hands of the graders, as opposed to a card needing to be a 10 to retain the lion's share of its value, should its current holder ever fall out of favor with collectors.
It's funny because when I first got heavily into the hobby I saw that phrase several times, and several veteran collectors told me: buy the card not the holder. Many years down the line, I see that saying continues to be so critical, and never steers a collector wrong, never leads to a bad buy, and almost always leads to a great sale if you ever do need to sell. And that saying seems prescient now in light of the fake slabs, and how we can begin to see that no one knows what the future holds in terms of TPGs. What will matter two or ten decades from now when a Balt News Ruth or Wagner or 52T Mantle or Ruth RC sells is that it is a legit, unaltered specimen of the card-- not whatever plastic holder it is in. Those older guys really know what they're talking about! One of the reasons I really look up to the elderly.
I agree with Matt that if you buy quality, and even if PSA takes a dive, you still have the card. Assuming you bought quality stuff to begin with, you'll always have value.
I found a site that reads barcodes quite well, so if anyone wants to check their codes...
free barcode reader
I just uploaded the entire scanned image and it does the rest.
Btw, I uploaded the barcodes from the Frank Robinson RC and Jerry Rice RC that ergoism posted and the Robinson came back as unreadable, but the Rice actually matched the numbers. So, either the Rice in the scan is legit, or some of these fakes have legit barcodes.
I know PSA, along with "would be" con-artists monitor this site from some of the threads. Let’s throw out some ideas to see if we have some good ones.
I like the idea of making the slab more secure. A multi-tiered system could be used. They originally had a hologram on the flap; make the whole back a hologram again, uniquely numbered for that card. They could design a "watermark" in slab that could correspond to the serial number, card type or grade. The BVG inner sleeve is a good idea; the serial number could be printed on that too. Now that may bring upper copy right issues.
As far as having the cards reslabbed, I would have no problem paying a nominal fee to have them reslabbed.
<< <i>Phase one is to buy from sellers we know, sellers who are in it for the long haul and not a quick score. Sellers who know what to look for, and who will make good on return if indeed a bad slab got past them. The major AHs fall into this category, the major individuals like Tony Arnold or Steve Novella to quickly name two, the major ebay sellers like obviously Rick and PWCC. >>
Am I the only one who questions as if Rick or Brent would catch a good fake?
With the volume they do, I am not sure they are closely inspecting even higher end cards.
Besides, I know Rick has others working for him and suspect Brent does as well.
If your point is they would take it back were it proven a fake, then I agree. But them catching it in the first place?
Snorto~
History is littered with examples of once-powerful people and corporations that eventually lost their luster or fell. But in this case, the cards are the items of value-- not a piece of paper with a number put on it.
The cards, if accurately assessed, will likely wind up with that same number in any market leader's slab years or decades from now. In fact to many buyers already, the slab means very little if anything.
Bottom line: If I am after a beautiful Mantle rookie and see two cards from two different companies in two different grades, I am going with the better card period, even if it's graded lower-- the slab and grade are irrelevant in the face of the card.
Let's postulate that a market leader falls. An existing or new one takes its place. Your CJ Cobb that I love will cross to a 3 (or higher!) at any company that slabs cards. Your CJ Cobb is a perfect example of everlasting quality and desirability. And most guys would pay the same price or damn close for it raw as they'd pay for it slabbed! That's quality. Same goes for any amazing piece with an accurate grade. It will survive any TPG landscape changes, because a truly beloved or great card lives way above the TPG game.
Meantime, we can avoid bad slabs by knowing the seller, and putting as many trusted eyes on a purchase as possible. That will ensure none of us gets fooled.
Edit to add:
Hi Snorto,
You're right; I agree their volume prohibits them from catching fakes on the regular, but the making good portion is key. Also, I'd venture that with special items (like the Ruth that Rick took extra time to promote on the BST thread) he or Brent would be sure to eyeball the piece themselves, and see if anything was hinkey. That said, even if it slipped by, such "in it for the long haul" sellers (and there are many, to be sure) will make good. Which is what counts most.
<< <i>Are those slabs missing the embossed PSA logo in the bottom-right? I can't tell, nor would I think to look for that when normally buying a card. >>
The article said they were cracking the top half of the slab, replacing the card/flip, and resealing the original slab. So, yes, those would have the PSA logo in the corners.
That barcode trick is awesome! Alas, with the cards / grades I collect... I won't be needing to use it.
Snorto~