Omar Vizquel a Hall of Famer?

Saw some good feedback on the Adrian Beltre thread. So how bout Omar Vizquel. One of the greatest defensive shortstops of all time. Also a decent hitter throughout his career. Almost 2900 hits, over 450 doubles, over 400 stolen bases, rarely struck out at all. 3 time all star and 11 gold glove awards. What do you think!?
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Comments

  • Is a lock for the HOF
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 23,792 ✭✭✭
    Yes


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  • orioles93orioles93 Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    glad to see some others think so to. Ive heard people say no before because they say he wasnt a good enough hitter.
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  • YES as an Indian.
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  • jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,642 ✭✭✭
    Yes, by far.

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  • firstbase23firstbase23 Posts: 267 ✭✭
    Without a doubt, yes.

    Matt
  • ClockworkAngelClockworkAngel Posts: 1,900 ✭✭
    I don't see the slam dunk here as much as others. .270 or so career hitter, 80 HR's, 2800 hits.

    An 11 time gold glove winner would be the reason, but unless you're Ozzie Smith and single handedly changed perception about a position, are those 11 gold gloves enough?
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  • Ridiculous that anyone thinks he is even close to as good as Trammell


  • << <i>Ridiculous that anyone thinks he is even close to as good as Trammell >>



    +1 Trammell not in the HOF is a travesty.
    Pedro Martinez is a first ballot HOF
    Omar should make it in the first 5 years of voting IMO
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  • orioles93orioles93 Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    I may be in the minority, but i think Vizquel is the best fielding shortstop of all time, with ozzie smith coming in at a close second. Vizquel was a great fielder throughout his entire career, even into his 40s. He holds the following records:

    - Highest career field percentage for a shortstop in MLB history at .985
    - All-time leader in games played at shortstop
    - All-time leader in double-plays turned at shortstop
    - AL record for most consecutive games played at shortstop without an error

    I think his fielding gets him in to the hall alone, but it doesnt hurt that he had close to 3000 hits in his career as well.
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  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭
    Vizquel has had a very successful career, no doubt. But how long does it take to get into the HOF, just based on the limit of inductees per year and the quantity of potential HOF players who played during roughly the same years as he did?

    Potential pitchers include Randy Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Pedro, & Schilling.

    Position players include Biggio, Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Jeff Kent, Sheffield, Edgar Martinez, Griffey Jr., Thome, & Vizquel.

    This is just a partial list of guys who would get some votes. I don't have the breakdown of initial year of eligibility memorized for the players above and haven't taken the time to look it up and list them according to ballot year, but where does Vizquel fit in among these peers for what year he might get his chance, even with the career he has had?
  • jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,642 ✭✭✭
    This is why players juice... because nobody pays attention to a middle-of-the-road hitter who happens to be the best defensive shortstop in the history of the game.
  • kwtozkwtoz Posts: 340 ✭✭


    << <i>I don't see the slam dunk here as much as others. .270 or so career hitter, 80 HR's, 2800 hits.

    An 11 time gold glove winner would be the reason, but unless you're Ozzie Smith and single handedly changed perception about a position, are those 11 gold gloves enough? >>



    I never saw Ozzie, but I sure saw a lot of Omar as an Indians fan. Spectacular would be a good description of his defense.
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  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭
    I definitely agree that his fielding should get him in regardless of his hitting, but I'm also not able to understand why Alan Trammell isn't a HOF player yet (I am biased due to growing up a Detroit fan).
  • alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,192 ✭✭
    being from the Cleveland area I had opportunity to see him play often and I believe he is HOF caliber....it may take awhile but I think he deserves to get in......plus he is great to meet in person.....very entertaining the few times I met him at shows...

    al.
  • jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,642 ✭✭✭
    I met him once at a Metallica concert at Blossom Music Center (he loved Metallica). It was during an All-Star Break, and he was on the DL at the time (his arm was in a sling). Nice dude!


  • << <i>This is why players juice... because nobody pays attention to a middle-of-the-road hitter who happens to be the best defensive shortstop in the history of the game. >>



    Are you suggesting Vizquel "juiced?" Because in the Hall-of-Fame discussion it seems lots of people are paying him far more attention than others who were better
  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭
    I don't think he was suggesting that. It sounded more like he was saying that other players, not Vizquel, might be driven to juicing in order to put up more impressive batting stats since top fielding stats are otherwise overshadowed by the long ball.
  • psychumppsychump Posts: 1,048 ✭✭
    Yes he will make it, but by Veterans Committee. 13 seasons of average or below average stats. Loved him on the Giants! Remember to get in the Hall, the rules are play for ten years have five great years.
    Tallulah Bankhead — 'There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare.'


  • << <i>I don't think he was suggesting that. It sounded more like he was saying that other players, not Vizquel, might be driven to juicing in order to put up more impressive batting stats since top fielding stats are otherwise overshadowed by the long ball. >>



    Yet in the Hall-of-Fame discussion it is now Vizquel who is overshadowing players like Bagwell, Piazza, McGriff, Martinez, who hit far more homeruns and were overall better players, but fell short
  • IronmanfanIronmanfan Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭
    I agree that Pedro Martinez is a first ballot Hall of Famer, but I think Vizquel will fall short (no pun intended)

    Obviously, time will tell

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  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I don't think he was suggesting that. It sounded more like he was saying that other players, not Vizquel, might be driven to juicing in order to put up more impressive batting stats since top fielding stats are otherwise overshadowed by the long ball. >>



    Yet in the Hall-of-Fame discussion it is now Vizquel who is overshadowing players like Bagwell, Piazza, McGriff, Martinez, who hit far more homeruns and were overall better players, but fell short >>



    Yes, I agree. I think Bagwell might eventually get voted in, and Edgar Martinez gets in through the veterans committee. I think Vizquel will be ahead of Piazza and McGriff for voting, but it will be tougher for him because of the number of players who aren't suspected of PEDs (yet, anyway) who will have similar years of eligibilty. Not at all that Vizquel doesn't deserve to be HOF, but am wondering how many years does he wait since he has to compete w/ R.Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, P.Martinez, Griffey Jr., Biggio, F.Thomas, etc.?
  • vols1vols1 Posts: 474 ✭✭
    Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves.
  • psychumppsychump Posts: 1,048 ✭✭


    << <i>Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>



    Rafael Palmiero won a Gold Glove in 1999 while playing in only 28 games in the field. Gold Gloves are a joke and have been for 20 years. Palmiero was a terrible firstbaseman with a career dWAR of almost -12!
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  • gregmo32gregmo32 Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭
    "Remember to get in the Hall, the rules are play for ten years have five great years. "

    One of those rules is written, the other unwritten.
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  • markj111markj111 Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>




    I am curious-are you being serious? Or are you just trolling? I certainly hope it's the latter. I would not vote for Vizquel, but a lot of people will. He was vastly overrated as a defender. His range factor is league average for his career. Offensively, he was terrible-career OPS+ is 82. Trammell was a much better ball player. He had an OPS+ of 110. His range factor was slightly below average for his career.


  • << <i>Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>



    There's a higher premium on defense at shortstop than on defense at pitcher or 1st base.
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  • Charlie9Charlie9 Posts: 504 ✭✭
    Like the other Cleveland fans that posted, Omar may have been one of the most entertaining ball players to watch and no one had more fun playing the game. Brilliant with the glove (when he chose to even use it) but you throw in a pretty decent bat and I say he makes it in. Might not be right away but he should be in.
  • olb31olb31 Posts: 1,088 ✭✭


    << <i>I don't see the slam dunk here as much as others. .270 or so career hitter, 80 HR's, 2800 hits.

    An 11 time gold glove winner would be the reason, but unless you're Ozzie Smith and single handedly changed perception about a position, are those 11 gold gloves enough? >>



    I am with you here. Bill Buckner and Johnny Damon were probably overall better than Omar during their primes. I think he is in the mix with a bunch of others. He needed the 3,000 hits to lock it up. How about Tommy John and Jim Kaat. Thier careers as pitchers were better than Omar's at SS.
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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭
    Second all-time in fielding % at SS with the most games played, plus a decent hitter and some very good years stealing bases.

    Come on folks, shortstops RARELY put up good OPS numbers. Ripken and Larkin are the only ones I could find above 100 for OPS+, Larkin was the only one above .800 at regular OPS and he rates #39 all time in fielding %.

    Omar gets in right away.

    Joe

    Edited to add; PLEASE stop comparing a shortstop to other positions is really foolish.
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  • Trammell was better. In my opinion, by far better overall. And he's not in yet. He(Omar) lingered around a couple of extra years. I hope Trammell gets in before he does. I don't see Vizquel as anywhere close to being a lock.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Trammell was better. In my opinion, by far better overall. And he's not in yet. He(Omar) lingered around a couple of extra years. I hope Trammell gets in before he does. I don't see Vizquel as anywhere close to being a lock. >>



    Oops, Trammell was also above 100 (110) OPS+ with a .767 OPS. Rated #23 in fielding %.

    He was also a great player and obviously one of the best hitting shortstops. I feel that at SS we need to focus primarily on defense, while not ignoring offense.

    Joe

    Edited to add Have you looked at Trammells last three years?
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  • << <i>Come on folks, shortstops RARELY put up good OPS numbers. Ripken and Larkin are the only ones I could find above 100 for OPS+, Larkin was the only one above .800 at regular OPS and he rates #39 all time in fielding %.
    >>



    Alan Trammell, Tony Fernandez, Vern Stephens, Jay Bell, Bill Dahlen, Jim Fregosi, Rico Petrocelli, Miguel Tejada, Cecil Travis, Nomar Garciaparra. . .


  • << <i>

    << <i>Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>




    I am curious-are you being serious? Or are you just trolling? I certainly hope it's the latter. I would not vote for Vizquel, but a lot of people will. He was vastly overrated as a defender. His range factor is league average for his career. Offensively, he was terrible-career OPS+ is 82. Trammell was a much better ball player. He had an OPS+ of 110. His range factor was slightly below average for his career. >>



    Your comment about Vizquel being vastly overrated as a defender absolutely hits the nail on the head. Vizquel was a solid defender in that he didn't make many errors and he was always good at making the highlight reel play. But those facts alone don't make you the best defender (or even 2nd best) of all time.

    People constantly bring up Vizquel's name in the same light that they talk about Ozzie Smith and that's a JOKE. There's very little comparison between the two other than the highlight reel plays. Ozzie Smith was so far better as a defender that it isn't even funny. That's how great he was.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Come on folks, shortstops RARELY put up good OPS numbers. Ripken and Larkin are the only ones I could find above 100 for OPS+, Larkin was the only one above .800 at regular OPS and he rates #39 all time in fielding %.
    >>



    Alan Trammell, Tony Fernandez, Vern Stephens, Jay Bell, Bill Dahlen, Jim Fregosi, Rico Petrocelli, Miguel Tejada, Cecil Travis, Nomar Garciaparra. . . >>



    I addressed Trammell already. I forgot about Fregosi and Petrocelli, they were very good, Garciaparra was awesome his first 8 years, but has played more 1st and 3rd base since, Tejeda (a juicer? Named in Mitchell report), Fernandez was good the other guys I don't think measure up defensively.

    I would say Petrocelli is the best of your bunch and if Nomar could have kept it up (didn't he suffer a serious injury or series of injuries?) he was an unbelievable hitter.

    We both left of Jeter, but he isn't a great fielder.

    Thanks for not bringing up ARoid!

    Joe
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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i> Vizquel was a solid defender in that he didn't make many errors and he was always good at making the highlight reel play. But those facts alone don't make you the best defender (or even 2nd best) of all time. >>



    Uh yes it does! Makes less errors, makes the highlight reel play, what more do you want............oh yes backflips. Ozzie may have been better, but not THAT much better.

    Joe
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  • I think he'll squeeze in, but definitely not on the first ballot. Maybe 8th ballot or even Veterans Committee. He's probably helped out b/c he's not suspected of PED's, and the voters probably want to elect someone from this era if they're keeping all of the players with PED suspicions out. I would think that he's most comparable to Pee Wee Reese, who was elected to the Hall by the Veterans Committee. Vizquel is 10th in defensive WAR all time (Link), just ahead of Reese, but far behind Ozzie Smith.


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i> Vizquel was a solid defender in that he didn't make many errors and he was always good at making the highlight reel play. But those facts alone don't make you the best defender (or even 2nd best) of all time. >>



    Uh yes it does! Makes less errors, makes the highlight reel play, what more do you want............oh yes backflips. Ozzie may have been better, but not THAT much better.

    Joe >>



    What more do I want? I want to him to make MORE PLAYS. I want him to, you know, actually have the range to get to balls that other shortstops do. Half of those highlight reel plays were plays that Ozzie made look totally look routine. And hey, I don't mind 10 more errors a year from a guy who makes 100 outs or more a year out of balls that are otherwise hits.

    Vizquel's best defensive season was 1993. He had 735 chances (putouts + assists). In his entire career, he had only one other season of 700+ chances (1998). Ozzie Smith on the other hand AVERAGED 783 chances from 1978 to 1989. AVERAGED!! And that includes the strike shortened 1981 season. He had six years of over 800 chances and one of over 900!

    Omar Vizquel isn't even on the same PLANET as Ozzie Smith from a defensive standpoint. Nobody is. Anybody that says that he is is just ignoring the facts and has an agenda (and has to bring up backflips in lieu of actual factual arguments).

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i> Vizquel was a solid defender in that he didn't make many errors and he was always good at making the highlight reel play. But those facts alone don't make you the best defender (or even 2nd best) of all time. >>



    Uh yes it does! Makes less errors, makes the highlight reel play, what more do you want............oh yes backflips. Ozzie may have been better, but not THAT much better.

    Joe >>



    What more do I want? I want to him to make MORE PLAYS. I want him to, you know, actually have the range to get to balls that other shortstops do. Half of those highlight reel plays were plays that Ozzie made look totally look routine. And hey, I don't mind 10 more errors a year from a guy who makes 100 outs or more a year out of balls that are otherwise hits.

    Vizquel's best defensive season was 1993. He had 735 chances (putouts + assists). In his entire career, he had only one other season of 700+ chances (1998). Ozzie Smith on the other hand AVERAGED 783 chances from 1978 to 1989. AVERAGED!! And that includes the strike shortened 1981 season. He had six years of over 800 chances and one of over 900!

    Omar Vizquel isn't even on the same PLANET as Ozzie Smith from a defensive standpoint. Nobody is. Anybody that says that he is is just ignoring the facts and has an agenda (and has to bring up backflips in lieu of actual factual arguments). >>



    Yeah, sorry about bringing up the backflip thing, but he DID do it a lot and it DID get him more exposure. We'll agree that Ozzie was better, even a lot better, the BEST even, but that's NOT the question here.

    You say you want Omar to make more plays, well how do we KNOW (how can we actually prove) that there were as many balls hit his way?

    Being second all time in fielding percentage while having played the most games at short is a huge statistic. My personal opinion is if you have a shortstop who doesn't make errors and still hits a little bit, that's what I want. I'll get power from other positions that aren't as demanding defensively.

    Joe

    edited because I still don't know how to post
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  • << <i>We both left of Jeter, but he isn't a great fielder. >>



    And Yount, Banks, Cronin, Wagner, Boudreau, Appling, Vaughan. . . I just listed players not in the Hall-of-Fame to show how low Vizquel's hitting was. If we agree Trammell is a better choice for the Hall-of-Fame, then there is absolutely no doubt we both agree Vizuel is below the standards set for the Hall-of-Fame. For middle infielders there is also no question Grich, Whitaker and Biggio were also much better. Vizquel is much closer to the Tony Fernandez, Frank White level than those other four

    Fernandez was very good defensively, probably second best in the AL in the 80s

    Tulowitzki, Reyes and Ramirez are three others with OPS+ over 100. The number of shortstops who were able to reach that is fairly sizable
  • ClockworkAngelClockworkAngel Posts: 1,900 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i> Vizquel was a solid defender in that he didn't make many errors and he was always good at making the highlight reel play. But those facts alone don't make you the best defender (or even 2nd best) of all time. >>



    Uh yes it does! Makes less errors, makes the highlight reel play, what more do you want............oh yes backflips. Ozzie may have been better, but not THAT much better.

    Joe >>



    What more do I want? I want to him to make MORE PLAYS. I want him to, you know, actually have the range to get to balls that other shortstops do. Half of those highlight reel plays were plays that Ozzie made look totally look routine. And hey, I don't mind 10 more errors a year from a guy who makes 100 outs or more a year out of balls that are otherwise hits.

    Vizquel's best defensive season was 1993. He had 735 chances (putouts + assists). In his entire career, he had only one other season of 700+ chances (1998). Ozzie Smith on the other hand AVERAGED 783 chances from 1978 to 1989. AVERAGED!! And that includes the strike shortened 1981 season. He had six years of over 800 chances and one of over 900!

    Omar Vizquel isn't even on the same PLANET as Ozzie Smith from a defensive standpoint. Nobody is. Anybody that says that he is is just ignoring the facts and has an agenda (and has to bring up backflips in lieu of actual factual arguments). >>



    Totally agree with you. I'd even take Tony Fernandez over Vizquel because Fernandez saved more runs with his incredible range and acrobatics. There is definitely something to be said for a good reliable Shortstop that never makes errors, but he's not in the same ballpark as Ozzie

    And it would piss me off if he got in over Trammell, Keith Hernandez, Tim Raines, Dale Murphy, or Jim Rice
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  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭
    I see him much like Ozzie Smith. I don't think he deserves it, but I know that he'll definitely get in.
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