Dropping the Bomb on Baseball
perkdog
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in Sports Talk
Lets see who gets named in this latest PED story.
After its in the open Id like to get peoples opinions on this...
Personally I hope alot of these guys get exposed, im talking guys like Pujols ect...
After its in the open Id like to get peoples opinions on this...
Personally I hope alot of these guys get exposed, im talking guys like Pujols ect...
0
Comments
What would baseball do if 10-12% of all players are on that list???
and strip ALL players of ALL awards they have won if they were caught juicing and any player going forward.
MLB needs to clean the game up and use this newest batch of players and set an example that performance enhancing WILL NOT be aloud.
And any player that gets hurt and has to use any type of substance like this should not be allowed to play untill
their system is clear of any and all type substances.
This one of the reasons I stopped watching BB back in the 80's-90's.
If the game lost 10-12% of the players we would at least be left with a bunch of guys playing the game because it's fun like when they were 10-12 yrs old
and see true talent as oppsed to juiced talent.
And thats not just BB it is all sports.
That's my nickels worth and I stand behind it 100%.
Joe
<< <i>Players that are injured do NOT need to take banned substances to recover.
Joe >>
Guess I should have elaborated on that a little better.
I'll use an example: Just last week I went to the doctors for a shot of steriods in my back.
The doctor told me that this shot is designed to cool off the inflamed nerve(s) and mucles in the area where they placed the shot
which should aid in the bodys natural healing process (it did'nt) buts thats a conversation for another day.
And maybe im naive but i always thought steriods were all the same.
Hopefully this did'nt come across as disrespectful in any way.
Rick
NOBODY cares about this story, other than ESPN. Deadspin nailed it best, saying that a compromised witness selling out to save his own skin is the furthest thing from a reliable witness.
The only people who care are the folks who think that players only started using substances in the 80s and belong, and think that the 'Golden Era' players were choir boys who wouldn't dare touch anything unnatural.
WAKE UP.
<< <i>If the game lost 10-12% of the players we would at least be left with a bunch of guys playing the game because it's fun like when they were 10-12 yrs old
and see true talent as oppsed to juiced talent >>
Most people take illegal drugs because they are fun
With these heavy suspensions about to come down, the players now know the only thing that matters is picking the right drug dealers, because all these players passed the drug tests
<< <i>Hopefully this did'nt come across as disrespectful in any way. >>
It doesn't come across as disrespectful, it comes across as hypocritical
<< <i>No real fans care about what player are taking what substances....
NOBODY cares about this story >>
Wrong. Real fans care about this story because it could have a direct effect on the team they root for. If one or more of your key players get suspended for 50 - 100 games, it could pretty much trash your team's season.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
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<< <i>
<< <i>Hopefully this did'nt come across as disrespectful in any way. >>
It doesn't come across as disrespectful, it comes across as hypocritical >>
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Ralph
I just wish Griffey, Frank Thomas and Cal Ripken were still in the mix so we could know the real story.
<< <i>throw them out...they know the history and know its against the rules....Pete Rose is living proof..He just bet on games, these guys might have changed the course of games...its bad again for baseball!! >>
They know the history, and they know that throughout history players have looked to EVERY substance looking to gain an advantage. It's the height of hypocrisy and a cry for the 'good ole days!' to sit there in willful ignorance and ignore the countless stories of numerous substances that were willfully taken by players throughout history to get a leg up.
Where's the calls for Gaylord Perry to be kicked out of the hall of fame? He's most famous for doctoring the baseball! Talk about breaking the rules and changing the course of games - and this guy is in the hall of fame! The history of baseball is littered with endless stories like these. Listen to any of the stories Mike Schmidt tells about the 'greenies' (amphetamines) that were available in clubhouses like candy.
Anyone who thinks for a second that the guy with the lab is a credible witness is a fool. He was facing numerous lawsuits from MLB, and he didn't have the money to fight them. It's hilarious that once he was coerced into being a witness for MLB, the lawsuits were dropped?
These players (rightfully) won't see a day of suspensions. MLB and Bud Selig in particular ought to be ashamed of themselves. Instead of looking at REAL problems within the game (revenue sharing to owners who have no desire in putting a winning team on the field, for instance), instead of going out to promote its young stars, it's continuing to try to run a playbook over and over. A playbook that has proven to be a LOSING formula.
On this trajectory, baseball will be no more popular than hockey soon. Nice work, Bud.
<< <i>
<< <i>throw them out...they know the history and know its against the rules....Pete Rose is living proof..He just bet on games, these guys might have changed the course of games...its bad again for baseball!! >>
They know the history, and they know that throughout history players have looked to EVERY substance looking to gain an advantage. It's the height of hypocrisy and a cry for the 'good ole days!' to sit there in willful ignorance and ignore the countless stories of numerous substances that were willfully taken by players throughout history to get a leg up.
Where's the calls for Gaylord Perry to be kicked out of the hall of fame? He's most famous for doctoring the baseball! Talk about breaking the rules and changing the course of games - and this guy is in the hall of fame! The history of baseball is littered with endless stories like these. Listen to any of the stories Mike Schmidt tells about the 'greenies' (amphetamines) that were available in clubhouses like candy.
Anyone who thinks for a second that the guy with the lab is a credible witness is a fool. He was facing numerous lawsuits from MLB, and he didn't have the money to fight them. It's hilarious that once he was coerced into being a witness for MLB, the lawsuits were dropped?
These players (rightfully) won't see a day of suspensions. MLB and Bud Selig in particular ought to be ashamed of themselves. Instead of looking at REAL problems within the game (revenue sharing to owners who have no desire in putting a winning team on the field, for instance), instead of going out to promote its young stars, it's continuing to try to run a playbook over and over. A playbook that has proven to be a LOSING formula.
On this trajectory, baseball will be no more popular than hockey soon. Nice work, Bud. >>
If you read former Umpire Ron Luciano's book "The Umpire Strikes Back" he states that MLB didn't care about doctored baseballs otherwise the umpires would have been given the option of tossing any pitcher suspected of throwing them. However, if the umpire suspected it was being done he usually would confront the pitcher and that would be the end of it (for that game).
If you read "Ball Four" former player Jim Bouton, he states that if you weren't careful taking greenies could get you too confident and actually hurt your performance.
All cheating is not the same. Steroids and HGH are MUCH more serious than either of the above mentioned offenses.
MLB has shown in all of the cheating to have ignored the problems until forced to deal with them. I do feel that Mr. Selig has done more to damage the game than any other single person.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>Players that are injured do NOT need to take banned substances to recover.
Joe >>
Guess I should have elaborated on that a little better.
I'll use an example: Just last week I went to the doctors for a shot of steriods in my back.
The doctor told me that this shot is designed to cool off the inflamed nerve(s) and mucles in the area where they placed the shot
which should aid in the bodys natural healing process (it did'nt) buts thats a conversation for another day.
And maybe im naive but i always thought steriods were all the same.
Hopefully this did'nt come across as disrespectful in any way.
Rick >>
I don't believe you are a professional baseball player, so you can take any drug prescribed by your doctor.
Professional athletes simply do not HAVE to take banned substances to recover from injury. Other treatments are available, though they might take longer to fully heal the injury.
Steroids are certainly NOT all the same. Cortisone is a steroid, it is not a banned substance. Do some research and you will see. For the most part players are not using steroids to recover from injury, they are using them to get bigger, stronger and quicker than their bodies could ever be.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Players that are injured do NOT need to take banned substances to recover.
Joe >>
Guess I should have elaborated on that a little better.
I'll use an example: Just last week I went to the doctors for a shot of steriods in my back.
The doctor told me that this shot is designed to cool off the inflamed nerve(s) and mucles in the area where they placed the shot
which should aid in the bodys natural healing process (it did'nt) buts thats a conversation for another day.
And maybe im naive but i always thought steriods were all the same.
Hopefully this did'nt come across as disrespectful in any way.
Rick >>
I don't believe you are a professional baseball player, so you can take any drug prescribed by your doctor.
Professional athletes simply do not HAVE to take banned substances to recover from injury. Other treatments are available, though they might take longer to fully heal the injury.
Steroids are certainly NOT all the same. Cortisone is a steroid, it is not a banned substance. Do some research and you will see. For the most part players are not using steroids to recover from injury, they are using them to get bigger, stronger and quicker than their bodies could ever be.
Joe >>
You are correct Iam not a pro ball player,and understand that different steriods are used for different reasons.
I used the above example because it is a form of steriod use and Im sure that some players would find away to use that to their advantage so they can play.
Which is why I stated in my 1st post in this thread "any player that was injured and had to use a substance to help them heal faster needs to be clean of all substances
before being allowed to play again".
Rick
<< <i>
<< <i>Hopefully this did'nt come across as disrespectful in any way. >>
It doesn't come across as disrespectful, it comes across as hypocritical >>
Maybe my defination of hypocritacal (saying one thing and doing another) is different than yours.
"And any player that gets hurt and has to use any type of substance like this should not be allowed to play untill
their system is clear of any and all type substances.
This one of the reasons I stopped watching BB back in the 80's-90's.
If the game lost 10-12% of the players we would at least be left with a bunch of guys playing the game because it's fun like when they were 10-12 yrs old
and see true talent as oppsed to juiced talent".
Maybe I should'nt have used the term "true talent" I probally shoud have said "unjuiced talent as opposed to juiced talent".
No where in this post or my original post is there any thing that suggests saying one thing and doing another.
Im only stating MY opinion as to what should be done about the use of steriods in base ball.
And commenting on only part of my comment and calling ME hypocritical is like polititions & news reporters spining the truth to suit their own needs (usless without 100% of the facts).
Rick
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Players that are injured do NOT need to take banned substances to recover.
Joe >>
Guess I should have elaborated on that a little better.
I'll use an example: Just last week I went to the doctors for a shot of steriods in my back.
The doctor told me that this shot is designed to cool off the inflamed nerve(s) and mucles in the area where they placed the shot
which should aid in the bodys natural healing process (it did'nt) buts thats a conversation for another day.
And maybe im naive but i always thought steriods were all the same.
Hopefully this did'nt come across as disrespectful in any way.
Rick >>
I don't believe you are a professional baseball player, so you can take any drug prescribed by your doctor.
Professional athletes simply do not HAVE to take banned substances to recover from injury. Other treatments are available, though they might take longer to fully heal the injury.
Steroids are certainly NOT all the same. Cortisone is a steroid, it is not a banned substance. Do some research and you will see. For the most part players are not using steroids to recover from injury, they are using them to get bigger, stronger and quicker than their bodies could ever be.
Joe >>
You are correct Iam not a pro ball player,and understand that different steriods are used for different reasons.
I used the above example because it is a form of steriod use and Im sure that some players would find away to use that to their advantage so they can play.
Which is why I stated in my 1st post in this thread "any player that was injured and had to use a substance to help them heal faster needs to be clean of all substances
before being allowed to play again".
Rick >>
Rick either you are not reading my response or I am not understanding your point.
Banned substances NEVER need to be used to rehab an injury. Accepted substances are fine. There is no debate here. You can't use a banned substance, heal the injury and get "clean" and then return to your sport. Players do not need to be clean of "all substances" just banned substances.
Banned substances are just that BANNED. You simply cannot justify using them, even if it's to help you get on the field sooner. Players must heal themselves using accepted treatments.
Joe
<< <i>
Banned substances are just that BANNED. You simply cannot justify using them, even if it's to help you get on the field sooner. Players must heal themselves using accepted treatments.
Joe >>
Accepted by whom? I'm going to take the advice of a doctor over Bud Selig every time. Doctors prescribe steroids in the treatment of injuries all the time, and suggesting that players should have to find alternative means to heal is ridiculous.
Also ridiculous? The fact that people will willfully ignore the FACTS that players have been taking banned/questionable substances FOR YEARS in a desperate need to think that only recent players 'cheated'. Look, folks, since baseball has been around, players have been looking for an edge. Ignore that fact and try to paint only recent PED users as 'cheaters' and you have really have no idea what you're talking about.
Joe
I understand your point completly. Lets take Pedroia for instance he is probally useing the unbanned version of steriods. Technically IMO he is walking the fine line, because its still in the steriod family, but he's using it so he can play while he is hurt because he just plays hard and it's classified as an unbanned substance.
And many players have been doing that very thing as far back as the 70's (maybe earlier).
IMO players from the mid to late 70's started using performance enhancing type steriods because all steriods were grouped into one catagory,but it was'nt as blatenly used back then but has morphed into what it is today IMO. So players could get away with it alot easier back then,but they just did'nt over do it like they did back in the mid to late 80's Bonds,Clemens,Sosa etc etc.....and even more blatenly into the 90's,00's,10's.
Rick
Banned substances NEVER need to be used to rehab an injury. Accepted substances are fine. There is no debate here. You can't use a banned substance, heal the injury and get "clean" and then return to your sport. Players do not need to be clean of "all substances" just banned substances.
Banned substances are just that BANNED. You simply cannot justify using them, even if it's to help you get on the field sooner. Players must heal themselves using accepted treatments.
Joe >>
If I am not mistaken when Mark Mcgwire was in the process of breaking the home run record he had a bottle of "Andro" in his locker. At that time this was a legal supplement that could be purchased over the counter. I would not have a problem with this product AT THAT TIME. Certain steroids are not banned, Cortisone being one of them.
I believe you have to draw the line somewhere. It seems to me that anabolic steroids, HGH and testosterone drugs cross that line. We certainly can't figure out who did it years ago, we need to try to move forward for what's left of the integrity of the game. When you mention Pedroia, (if you are correct in your assumption) he isn't walking any kind of fine line! He would be getting proper treatment under the current rules for his injury.
1985fan you are free to use any substance you want to heal yourself. But even in the regular workforce, you may be asked to take a drug test and if you chose the wrong drug you may be in jeopardy of losing your job, just like ballplayers.
Or are you guys suggesting that we forget the whole thing and allow the players to use any and every drug; legal, banned or illegal? After all it's their body.
Joe
<< <i>I am not discussing the 1970's or the 1940's or fact that players have always, and will always, look for ways to get an "edge" on the competition.
If I am not mistaken when Mark Mcgwire was in the process of breaking the home run record he had a bottle of "Andro" in his locker. At that time this was a legal supplement that could be purchased over the counter. I would not have a problem with this product AT THAT TIME. Certain steroids are not banned, Cortisone being one of them.
I believe you have to draw the line somewhere. It seems to me that anabolic steroids, HGH and testosterone drugs cross that line. We certainly can't figure out who did it years ago, we need to try to move forward for what's left of the integrity of the game. When you mention Pedroia, (if you are correct in your assumption) he isn't walking any kind of fine line! He would be getting proper treatment under the current rules for his injury.
1985fan you are free to use any substance you want to heal yourself. But even in the regular workforce, you may be asked to take a drug test and if you chose the wrong drug you may be in jeopardy of losing your job, just like ballplayers.
Or are you guys suggesting that we forget the whole thing and allow the players to use any and every drug; legal, banned or illegal? After all it's their body.
Joe >>
I believe that I stated my opinion and answered these questions on this topic in my very 1st post to the op's question. which I thought was very clear IMO
but somehow had to further explain my opinion and was called "hypocritical"(not by you) as to what my opinion was.
I am & was NOT looking for any argument only stating MY opinion to the very 1st question asked by the original poster.
Rick
<< <i>
Or are you guys suggesting that we forget the whole thing and allow the players to use any and every drug; legal, banned or illegal? After all it's their body.
Joe >>
Yes! Let them use what they want! It's what they've been doing since baseball was invented, and it's worked pretty well for the game so far. If a player is willing to risk his long-term health for a leg up while playing ball, that's not for us to wring our hands over and say 'tsk tsk'. It's THEIR choice, but since this overactive media, this 24/7 media machine has kicked off, it needs food to survive. 'Stories' like these are what keep that machine ticking. It's what allows garbage like ESPN's First Take to remain on the air. After all, you can only re-run highlights so many times.
Of course, some of you guys would love that.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>
Or are you guys suggesting that we forget the whole thing and allow the players to use any and every drug; legal, banned or illegal? After all it's their body.
Joe >>
Yes! Let them use what they want! It's what they've been doing since baseball was invented, and it's worked pretty well for the game so far. If a player is willing to risk his long-term health for a leg up while playing ball, that's not for us to wring our hands over and say 'tsk tsk'. It's THEIR choice, but since this overactive media, this 24/7 media machine has kicked off, it needs food to survive. 'Stories' like these are what keep that machine ticking. It's what allows garbage like ESPN's First Take to remain on the air. After all, you can only re-run highlights so many times. >>
Thanks for clarifying. Now I understand where you are coming from. I disagree, but that's fine.
By the way, in the book "Ball Four" major league pitcher Jim Bouton specifically states "If there was a pill a pitcher could take to guarantee him 20 win seasons, but would take 5 years off his life, he would take the pill."
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not discussing the 1970's or the 1940's or fact that players have always, and will always, look for ways to get an "edge" on the competition.
If I am not mistaken when Mark Mcgwire was in the process of breaking the home run record he had a bottle of "Andro" in his locker. At that time this was a legal supplement that could be purchased over the counter. I would not have a problem with this product AT THAT TIME. Certain steroids are not banned, Cortisone being one of them.
I believe you have to draw the line somewhere. It seems to me that anabolic steroids, HGH and testosterone drugs cross that line. We certainly can't figure out who did it years ago, we need to try to move forward for what's left of the integrity of the game. When you mention Pedroia, (if you are correct in your assumption) he isn't walking any kind of fine line! He would be getting proper treatment under the current rules for his injury.
1985fan you are free to use any substance you want to heal yourself. But even in the regular workforce, you may be asked to take a drug test and if you chose the wrong drug you may be in jeopardy of losing your job, just like ballplayers.
Or are you guys suggesting that we forget the whole thing and allow the players to use any and every drug; legal, banned or illegal? After all it's their body.
Joe >>
I believe that I stated my opinion and answered these questions on this topic in my very 1st post to the op's question. which I thought was very clear IMO
but somehow had to further explain my opinion and was called "hypocritical"(not by you) as to what my opinion was.
I am & was NOT looking for any argument only stating MY opinion to the very 1st question asked by the original poster.
Rick >>
Rick
Your first post started off by stating a very strong punishment for players who have used PEDs.
I completely agree with that opinion as long as the player has failed a test.
However, your next comment SEEMS to say it's OK for players to use banned substances in order to recover from injury as long as they "clean up" before returning to the field.
This seemed rather contradictory to me, and I responded by saying that banned substances needn't be used at all. I think that allowing banned substances for injury rehab is unnecessary, other treatments will work just as well, even though they may take longer to heal the injury.
Joe
Your first post started off by stating a very strong punishment for players who have used PEDs.
I completely agree with that opinion as long as the player has failed a test.
However, your next comment SEEMS to say it's OK for players to use banned substances in order to recover from injury as long as they "clean up" before returning to the field.
This seemed rather contradictory to me, and I responded by saying that banned substances needn't be used at all. I think that allowing banned substances for injury rehab is unnecessary, other treatments will work just as well, even though they may take longer to heal the injury.
Joe >>
After rereading my second comment in my first post where it may seem a little vague or conflicting.
And I should have said any player that gets injured and uses any of the treatments that involve any of the steriod family (banned or unbanned) needs to be clean of any and all substances before returning to the game because unfortinatly players looking for an edge will find a way to walk the fine line.
And it started to be common place and out in the open with players such as Bonds,mcguire,sosa ,clemens etc ect..... but it all really started in the mid 70's
To use another example: In Nascar drivers and crew chiefs have stated in interviews that "if its not in the rules that we cant use certain parts or fuel additives
it must be legal to use right?"
Ball players are no different in walking that fine line grey area which is why the debate continues to this day.
And that grey area is just another way to gain an edge and take advantage by bending the rules to suit their needs.
Ban it all to level the playing field. I would rather watch a good player without it than watch a player do amazing things with it.
Rick
1935 synthetic testosterone created
1960 virtually all bodybuilders using "steroids"
1963 Alvin Roy strength coach for San Diego Chargers uses steroids in his weightlifting program. He moves onto the 1968 KC Chiefs, then the 1972 Cowboys all of these teams show great success during his tenure. 1970's Raiders and Steelers also adopt similar programs.
1976 International Olympic Committee first organization to ban steroids because of rampant use in Olympics.
1988 Anti Drug Abuse Act makes steroids illegal. Jose Canseco wins MVP award!
1991 U.S. Govt. declares steroids a Schedule III controlled substance. MLB bans steroids without instituting any testing
1994 the Dietary Health Supplement Education Act further restricts over the counter drugs such as androstenedione.
2002 MLB testing began
2005 first players suspended for use
2007 Mitchell report names 89 players
MLB banned steroids in 1991, but didn't start testing the players until 2002. In my opinion there's the problem.
Joe
<< <i>Legalize all PEDs and you'll have a "if you want to be a major league player, then this is the price you MUST pay" situation.
Of course, some of you guys would love that. >>
Try spending some time around some minor league teams, and these conversations are already going on and have been for decades. This idea that baseball is this pure game that just a few are using is so far removed from reality I don't even know where to begin. Players are told in not-so-certain terms that if they want to succeed, they are going to have to look for every edge possible.
<< <i>Try spending some time around some minor league teams, and these conversations are already going on and have been for decades. This idea that baseball is this pure game that just a few are using is so far removed from reality I don't even know where to begin. Players are told in not-so-certain terms that if they want to succeed, they are going to have to look for every edge possible. >>
I have no doubt that the conversations have been going on for decades. When there are rules, there are always conversations and contemplations about the pros and cons of breaking them.
But, just because people are sneaking around doing crap they shouldn't do doesn't mean that they should be given the green light to do so without penalty.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
I have no doubt that the conversations have been going on for decades. When there are rules, there are always conversations and contemplations about the pros and cons of breaking them.
But, just because people are sneaking around doing crap they shouldn't do doesn't mean that they should be given the green light to do so without penalty. >>
Players on the cusp are told to their faces they need to 'sacrifice' if they want to fulfill their dream of being a pro ballplayer. I've know several players who were drafted and once they get to A-ball they have all been told essentially the same thing. It's the worst kept secret in baseball.
The fact that MLB is not willing to pay for drug testing for ALL their minor league affiliates is proof that they really don't want to address the root cause of PED use. If MLB was truly serious about stemming the tide of PED use, they'd implement system-wide blood testing at all levels.
<< <i>Players on the cusp are told to their faces they need to 'sacrifice' if they want to fulfill their dream of being a pro ballplayer. I've know several players who were drafted and once they get to A-ball they have all been told essentially the same thing. >>
Anyone and everyone who's ever been an athlete was told that when the question of "how do I get to the next level" was asked.
Since when does "sacrifice" equal "cheat?"
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
To be honest, no direction, but...
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"Players who require prescription medication can still use it with a "Therapeutic Use Exemption" granted by the MLB."
Thanks for the post drc
Joe
Baseball isn't interested in stamping out PEDs - they're interested in big name 'leaks' in reports and labs in a pathetic effort that they're actively working to stem their use.
<< <i>Let's also conveniently ignore the fact that baseball allows up to 4x the normal levels of testosterone before flagging a test as a 'fail'.
Baseball isn't interested in stamping out PEDs - they're interested in big name 'leaks' in reports and labs in a pathetic effort that they're actively working to stem their use. >>
Hard to argue with that.
Joe
<< <i>So a rule of thumb cut off is if the drug use is legal. For stuff like BGH and steroids, if the use is legal (prescribed for medical use) it will also be okay by MLB rules. If the use is illegal, it against MLB rules. >>
DING!
I had to take some steroids the other week after unsuccessfully fighting an infection in my lungs for a month. Sure, I could have visited a gym and asked for some backroom pills but instead, sought the advice of my well respected GP and he gave me a prescription. Everyone is free to make their own choices and will have to live with their decisions. If you don't like a rule or law, try to change it based upon facts, logic, and reason. You can break it but if you're caught, you're the one that has to deal with the consequences.
Personally, I won't waste the time arguing with someone that insists amphetamines are equivalent to synthetic PEDs. That's comparing a couple cups of coffee to doing an eightball. Sure, they're both drugs but like life, things are not always black and white. They either don't understand the science/have the personal experience or are being deliberately misleading to help their argument.
<< <i>
<< <i>Personally, I won't waste the time arguing with someone that insists amphetamines are equivalent to synthetic PEDs. That's comparing a couple cups of coffee to doing an eightball. Sure, they're both drugs but like life, things are not always black and white. They either don't understand the science/have the personal experience or are being deliberately misleading to help their argument. >>
+1