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fraud packs, PSA errors, trimming, etc....

imissnevadaimissnevada Posts: 4
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
I am new to these boards. I just spent about 5 hours the last two days like a little kid finding out that Santa doesnt exist. I have run into some issues of people selling me trimmed cards, but now I find out that the beloved racks with stars I have been accumulating for a decade may be faked too!!?? image( And who is Jose? What is his ebay name? I hope I did not buy from him. I am seeing so many helpful posts from people like bubblebathgirl and others exposing the crooks in the hobby. I love baseball cards. I look at the same ones over and over again. You can laugh, but I love 1982 fleer! Those were my first cards bought as a 10-year old from the local Ed's Liquor. I remember the Pete Rose card was the one to have! He was 60 cents in the 1982 Pete Rose Price Guide (I still have mine!).

I digress. Anyways, I bought a bunch of stars on top racks from 1978 to 1983 last fall for $2000. I am hoping they are not faked? How can I tell? Three of the 1979s have Smith rookie showing. From bubblebathgirl's posts, looks like they need to be next to the header card. One of mine is on front next to the header, one smith on back next to the header, but one smith in the far outside cell on front. So it looks like that is a fraud pack? Should I just open it? Because even selling it with the stipulation that it is faked doesnt seem right because someone may turn around and try to sell it without disclosing that. The other packs have one star, some with two showing. So nothing too crazy like bruingirls packs. So maybe the seller i got these from didnt know. Looks like a one time sale because he has not listed others, and had not much history of selling packs.

You guys have been helpful in your posts, and so it prompted me to join the forum and communicate with you all. It just bums me out thought. I mean, I got ripped off with about $10,000 of trimmed cards from tripleplayvintage. And now that has scared me from buying anything raw that is better than VG/Ex or EX!! And now come to find out PSA has chinks in its armor! image( Just looking at my cards I have gotten graded, i have a 59 banks in a PSA 7.5 that looks 10 times worse than my 1979 Rice that got just a 7!? That Rice looks 9 easy. I just dont get it.

Ok, I am rambling. I have like a decade worth of questions. Almost makes me want to sell everything before they can fake everything and nobody will know what is legit anymore! image(

Phil

Comments

  • CubsFan41CubsFan41 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    Post scans of your questionable items. You will get many valuable replies. good luck
    Looking for Cello packs with Bill Buckner on top
  • vintageinvestmentsvintageinvestments Posts: 642 ✭✭
    nice avatar
  • elsnortoelsnorto Posts: 2,012 ✭✭
    Welcome to the boards!

    image

    I'm sure I am not alone in looking forward to seeing some of the favorites from your unopened pack collection.

    Turn on your Private Messages and I am sure someone can point you in the right direction with regards to the "Jose Affair". I missed the entire story when it originally blew up here and just got up to speed on it myself recently.

    This place is filled with honest, knowledgeable collectors... but, as in life, some are not always what they portray themselves to be. For example this thread.

    Now fire up that scanner!

    Snorto~
  • cpamikecpamike Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    Hello Phil,

    First off, welcome to the board. Sorry if some of the posts have discouraged you, but hopefully it is not as bad as you fear. Please post any of your rack packs as we would be more than happy to give you our thoughts on them.

    Also, there are variations to the normal sequencing of rack packs, but there are ways to tell if they are legit or not too.
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

    "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

    Collecting:
    Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
  • MapleleafMapleleaf Posts: 506 ✭
    Welcome to the boards! I think many of us have bought trimmed cards and fake packs in the past. I buy very few raw cards and packs due to this. I stick mostly with PSA graded cards of 80's OPC hockey (what I bought as a kid). PSA is generally the best but not always perfect. I think a PSA 10 should always look better than a 9, but 7's often look very good due to minute flaws that are hard to see and may look better than their grade. My particular pet peeve is sheet cut cards so I track the cert numbers of known or suspect sheet cuts from the years I collect.

    I think you have to let go of mistakes made when starting out and build a collection you are confidant of and will be happy with.
  • imissnevadaimissnevada Posts: 4
    ok, hopefully the scans worked.

    Paul, you right in one of your posts i found from earlier this year. the first panel is an "A", the second is a "D", and the last is a "F". If this pack was tampered with, what a stinkin shame. I mean, there is already morgan and winfield on the back! why stick an ozzie faked on front??

    to answer your question, it is card number 431 glenn borgmann on back of the outer panel where ozzie is. you know what? in the scan of the back, you can see an imperfection in the plastic. and lo and behold, one outer edge (of the rack's "back" piece of plastic) of plastic is pulled in/shorter than the rest of the plastic around the whole pack. looks like that is where ozzie was inserted. crazy irritating.

    well, it says the file sizes are too big. front is header panel, wayne garland, rick wise, ozzie smith. back is header panel then morgan, winfield, then borgmann.

    i looked at the other ozzie packs, and they dont seem to have the edge imperfection.

    dang it, tried to attach another pic of my other packs, and it says 50kb max? are you kidding me? the smallest i could get it is 220kb. oh well. so two of my 1983s have boggs in first/header panel, and one has ripken on front of middle panel and the other has ryan in middle panel. too good to be true or possibly legit?

    luckily my other 78s and 79s have the star in the panel next to the header (jackson on one, morgan on one, bench on one, murray on one). i do have two with rose in the outer panel, but isnt he an E or F? shoot, i wish there was a way to attach these bigger scans.

    you guys are great. thanks for the help. i would like to continue this discussion so we can help each other out. Paul, you are an incredible wealth of info. i think you contacted me a couple years ago when i bought a 78 vending box, asking if it was legit. i hadnt opened it (and still havent) so i didnt know. but smart - i do the same thing when i buy stuff like that, i scan previous buyers and ask them.

    Phil
    (ebay ID phil5939)

  • cpamikecpamike Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    Phil, if you have a Photobucket account, you can just paste the image into your post by copying the IMG code.

    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

    "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

    Collecting:
    Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
  • elsnortoelsnorto Posts: 2,012 ✭✭


    << <i>there are variations to the normal sequencing of rack packs, but there are ways to tell if they are legit or not too. >>



    No! NO! Not when it comes to 1979 Topps racks...

    "pete rose #650 should always be in the 2nd panel, Lance Parrish #469 should always be in the 3rd panel."

    image

    Except, of course, when they aren't. image

    Snorto~
  • cpamikecpamike Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    On that 1979 rack, Glenn Borgmann is an "F" card which tells me that the Ozzie Smith was likely slipped on top and that section resealed. I'd bet that all the cards in that sections are "E" or "F" cards except the Ozzie which is an "A" card.

    Edited to add: Great point Scott. image
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

    "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

    Collecting:
    Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
  • imissnevadaimissnevada Posts: 4
    thank you all, cpamike, mapleleaf, elsnorto, bubblebathgirl, cubsfan41. thanks for the welcome and the info. i am kind of a computer idiot hahaha. i dont even have facebook or any of that. i let my wife do all that stuff, henning it up with her friends hahaha!

    Anyways, i love sharing and talking about cards, seeing other people's card pics, showing my card pics. would love for you guys to see pics of the racks somehow. i will figure out how to make the files smaller somehow. i am so hoping my other racks are not fakes! they are such neat parts of a collection.

    thanks for the info everyone, and stay in touch.

    i am bummed, i so thought that racks were not able to be tampered with like wax packs! hopefully the ones that are near the header card are legit. is it harder to sneak a card into a cell other than the outer/farthest from header card cells? my 1978 racks have (nearest the header card), one has a bench, one has a carew, one has don sutton (with ryan strikeout leaders in middle cell), one has rose, one has yount, one has schmidt. are all those stars where they should be?

    i can already see one of my 1983 sanberg on fronts is a fake. because i have one with sandberg next to the header, but one has him in the outer cell!!!!! aarrrghh! This feels just like when all the mantles i sent in to get graded were deemed "evidence of trimming" by PSA. oh well. goodnight all. gotta get up at 2 am to drive a bus. phil
  • imissnevadaimissnevada Posts: 4
    ok, i found out how to turn on private messages. thanks for the pointers
  • cpamikecpamike Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
    Well Phil, all those 1978 racks have the stars in the correct section closest to the header. And yes, resealers like to use the section furthest from the header card to put the star card in as it is easier for them to then reseal it. However, they can reseal any section if they are proficient enough at resealing.
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

    "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

    Collecting:
    Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
  • cpamikecpamike Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭


    << <i>i can already see one of my 1983 sanberg on fronts is a fake. because i have one with sandberg next to the header, but one has him in the outer cell!!!!! >>



    The one with the Sandberg in the section furthest from the header is in the typical section, but I would really need to know all the cards showing on front and back to say if one or the other is definitely bad.

    Take care and careful driving.

    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep."

    "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

    Collecting:
    Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
  • vols1vols1 Posts: 793 ✭✭✭
    Well if you have been ripped off then my only suggestion is to file a police report online, I had to do it before to get my money back.

    https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/

  • belzbelz Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
    I know I've been burned before but this forum sure has taught me a lot. Has anyone had any dealings with klinger83? Would love to know if any of his cards have been submitted to PSA...or maybe not know.

    Thanks
    "Wots Uh The Deal" by Pink Floyd
  • DodgerfanjohnDodgerfanjohn Posts: 491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I know I've been burned before but this forum sure has taught me a lot. Has anyone had any dealings with klinger83? Would love to know if any of his cards have been submitted to PSA...or maybe not know.

    Thanks >>



    I have, but my wheelhouse is Ex to NrMt and as I stated in an earlier thread, I almost always bid one grade low on raw eBay cards.

    I've been happy with my Klinger cards. However I assume you are targeting those 77's he has listed at $0.99 BIN.
    Check those scans again. Seems most of those cards have a corner or two that would result in a nice NrMt card...a 7, not 8 or 9.
  • belzbelz Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
    Hi DodgerfanJohn...I actually bought some high end vintage from him that look great (I wouldn't be able to tell if there were trimming) to me. I plan to submit for the very first time to PSA at the upcoming National Show and am preparing my cards now. I've been collecting for quite some time so I have some real nice raw vintage stuff through the 70's that can garner some nice grades. Excited to see how it goes down. I'm not too trusting however after reading so many of these great posts...I'll probably take good pictures of all my cards before submitting to PSA. I have absolute perfect cards from 79 through 85 so I'll probably get the stars ready for those next. My main stuff for grading will be late 50's through 70's and that is why I'm concerned about the klinger83 vintage...I suppose I can mirror them up against others from same year but they're already in the submitting plastic sleeves. I'm cautiously optimistic about it all. If I get a 10 on any of my vintage I'll be doing backflips. Thanks again DFJ.
    "Wots Uh The Deal" by Pink Floyd
  • belzbelz Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
    As it relates to the 79's...I opened a wax box awhile back that mainly had oc's that I was bummed about, but then I opened a few random wax and cellos that were perfect centering and sharp corners...as I get my act together with everything I'll take pictures
    "Wots Uh The Deal" by Pink Floyd
  • BobHBobH Posts: 206 ✭✭


    << <i>Hi DodgerfanJohn...I actually bought some high end vintage from him that look great (I wouldn't be able to tell if there were trimming) to me. I plan to submit for the very first time to PSA at the upcoming National Show and am preparing my cards now. I've been collecting for quite some time so I have some real nice raw vintage stuff through the 70's that can garner some nice grades. Excited to see how it goes down. I'm not too trusting however after reading so many of these great posts...I'll probably take good pictures of all my cards before submitting to PSA. I have absolute perfect cards from 79 through 85 so I'll probably get the stars ready for those next. My main stuff for grading will be late 50's through 70's and that is why I'm concerned about the klinger83 vintage...I suppose I can mirror them up against others from same year but they're already in the submitting plastic sleeves. I'm cautiously optimistic about it all. If I get a 10 on any of my vintage I'll be doing backflips. Thanks again DFJ. >>


    .

    I plan on doing the same at this years National. I submitted a handful to PSA that i purchased online at the Chicago show last summer and had no trimming. I really prefer raw vintage cards but as the value goes past a few hundred dollars it's wise to to suck it up and buy graded examples.. I typically buy from sellers at shows and just 2or3 Ebay sellers with good reputations and feedback. I've gotten pretty good at spotting possible trimmed cards and of course measuring and mirroring the cards when they arrive. I'm sure i will get the dreaded "evidence of trimming" the more raw cards i submit but most Ebay sellers are pretty good about returns. They all seem to value that Positive feedback rating. Good luck and don't buy all the good 60's and 70's raw stars. I'll be looking for the guy doing back flips at the National
    Interested in 60's and 70's psa and raw star and hof cards
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