1980's Unopened Packs Tampered Question
mygotta
Posts: 1,652
I was curious what percentage of 80's stuff have been tampered with? Does anyone have a guesstimation? I would assume 1980 Topps is the most vulnerable to tampering. But is there cause for concern over other years at this point? I have no worry picking up a 1987 box from any of the companies, but say 1984 Donruss or 1985 Fleer. Are these packs susceptible? I am wondering what people's experiences buying from eBay of 80's material.
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Comments
1.84 Donruss
2.80 Topps
3.85 Topps
You'd have to buy from a reputable dealer on eBay as a good majority is resealed. You do get lukcy once in a while. I've made some solid purchases as I'm sure some others have. You'll find sealed cases go for a premium.
I love the wax trays too. It's a fun collectible on it's own, but it seems like it would be much more difficult to reseal those.
As for the actual question of %, I believe the closest anyone can get is to say something in the neighborhood of 50% with a 50% margin of error. : )
<< <i>I was curious what percentage of 80's stuff have been tampered with? Does anyone have a guesstimation? I would assume 1980 Topps is the most vulnerable to tampering. But is there cause for concern over other years at this point? I have no worry picking up a 1987 box from any of the companies, but say 1984 Donruss or 1985 Fleer. Are these packs susceptible? I am wondering what people's experiences buying from eBay of 80's material. >>
Suddenly you are concerned about resealed product? Did I take your recent (ironically enough on the 80's pack rip thread) "over it already" comment out of context with regards to unscrupulous individuals recently selling a number of box/wrapper/gum kits the likes of which pack resealers dream of? Or did you just realize that same gum could just as readily be used to reseal packs in your personal area of collecting interest and became concerned?
Obviously there is no way to speculate how much product hasn't been resealed or sequence searched, but certainly 1980 is a prime candidate for fraud given market demand/price and the necessary tools are readily available (i.e.: cheap NM+ commons, wrappers, etc.)... the same holds true for 1984 Donruss as well.
I would advise anyone looking to buy more expensive "vintage" product adhere to the conventional wisdom around here. Unless it comes from a reputable dealer (i.e. BBCE, Fritsch, etc.), you are rolling the dice and should protect yourself in terms of knowledge to spot problems and ability to recoup payment should it be necessary. Of course, when it doubt, you have a very knowledgeable community of unopened collectors here to leverage as well.
Good luck with expanding your collection and stay safe out there!
Snorto~
<< <i>
<< <i>I was curious what percentage of 80's stuff have been tampered with? Does anyone have a guesstimation? I would assume 1980 Topps is the most vulnerable to tampering. But is there cause for concern over other years at this point? I have no worry picking up a 1987 box from any of the companies, but say 1984 Donruss or 1985 Fleer. Are these packs susceptible? I am wondering what people's experiences buying from eBay of 80's material. >>
Suddenly you are concerned about resealed product? Did I take your recent (ironically enough on the 80's pack rip thread) "over it already" comment out of context with regards to unscrupulous individuals recently selling a number of box/wrapper/gum kits the likes of which pack resealers dream of? Or did you just realize that same gum could just as readily be used to reseal packs in your personal area of collecting interest and became concerned?
Obviously there is no way to speculate how much product hasn't been resealed or sequence searched, but certainly 1980 is a prime candidate for fraud given market demand/price and the necessary tools are readily available (i.e.: cheap NM+ commons, wrappers, etc.)... the same holds true for 1984 Donruss as well.
I would advise anyone looking to buy more expensive "vintage" product adhere to the conventional wisdom around here. Unless it comes from a reputable dealer (i.e. BBCE, Fritsch, etc.), you are rolling the dice and should protect yourself in terms of knowledge to spot problems and ability to recoup payment should it be necessary. Of course, when it doubt, you have a very knowledgeable community of unopened collectors here to leverage as well.
Good luck with expanding your collection and stay safe out there!
Snorto~ >>
Its not out of sudden concern. The concern has always been there. The continual reference after every post of selling gum is what I was over. I am well aware of the situation and the implications and problems it could potentially have on the market. My question comes more out of general eBay searches for boxes and so I thought I would ask. Most people seem more experienced in opening some of this stuff more than I, so I figured it would be a good idea to know what to be more on alert for than others.
I have been bitten buying 70's wax a bunch of times, but I feel at times 80's is a safer market, but as it becomes more popular and prices are going up, I was wondering if there is an increasing concern about tampered stuff in the 80's. I have opened 89 Fleer that are even suspect (as some have mentioned), but cant imagine it was a case of tampering rather than pack searching and/or just Fleer has a weird collation. Right now, 1980 Topps would be on my list of "buy-with-caution" list, so I was seeing if other years should be done with the same regard.
<< <i>mygotta, I suggest your keep records of what you buy and the sequence of the cards in the packs.
As you accumulate more and more data about a given issue you will be able to more confidently read whether a material is legit. Granted sequencing is only one of the many tools and practices one should take advantage of when dealing with unopened, but it a very valuable one IMO ... and not one that I think most take advantage of since it requires a lot of extra work (in the long run) when ripping and is quite the tedious process.
If you ever buy 1978 or 1979 Topps Baseball racks and have any question about sequencing please feel free to PM me and I can let you know whether the sequence looks legit or not. While a properly sequenced pack can still be a fake, one that is improperly sequenced is most certainly fake ... and knowing this in the right circumstance can be very useful. >>
Does that offer go to the people who will buy the re-sealed 78 boxes that are about to be sold???????
T206 Set - 300/524
2. effrontery or insolence; shameless boldness: His questioner's audacity shocked the lecturer.
These types of questions seem to come up a lot. I totally understand the desire for discussion about the topic, but if 20 people on CU say "buy 1980 topps on ebay no problem" are you going to just blindly go out and do it? That's a rhetorical question, I know you're not. I say educate yourself. It's great to have people you know and trust that are knowledgeable and can pick their brains, but it should be an augmentation of our knowledge, not the basis of it.
And I'll be the first to tell you that I am WAY far away from being able to buy raw vintage wax packs safely. But I'm definitely doing everything in my power to educate myself. I say buy Mark Murphy's book, that's a good first step. It's not as informative as I would like but there's some good info in there about wax seals, roller marks, and corner folds. Buy some slabbed wax packs and study the hell out of them. Look at the backs under different lights and angles. Scan them and save a blown up image that can reveal more details. Buy some raw wax packs from BBCE for cheap and do the same thing with them. Try putting the backs under different lights (black light?) and see what it reveals. Buy a 10x loupe. Look at the backs of wax packs under magnification. Take notes on things you think might be good/bad/questionable. Compare those notes to future notes. The entire cello/rack thing is way over my head. I look at some of the resealed cellos and think they look great to me. Between my fear and ignorance, and the fact that I'm getting older and only have so much RAM in my head, I just stay away from buying expensive cellos/racks. But if that's your thing, then tackle it head on.
Stay within your comfort zone (see my cello/rack comment above). If you're unsure of something, don't buy it. I promise that whatever it is, another will be along at some point. But the main thing is that there are no shortcuts. This board is littered with examples of people that ran face first into a hobby avenue without taking the time to educate themselves and have been burned badly. Don't let that happen to you.
As for your questions, obviously no one knows how much unopened on ebay is bad or good. We can all sit around and speculate with numbers we pull out of our balloon knots but we might as well all sit around and guess on what next week's Powerball numbers will be. It's not good, hard information that can be used to prove or disprove anything. Therefore, it's an exercise in futility. The most important aspect of the question is the question itself. We know that there's a enough bad product on ebay that it causes us to wonder and speculate about risk versus reward. That, in and of itself, should be enough to answer your question.
Personally, I would only buy slabbed wax packs and inexpensive sealed cases on ebay. Does that mean there aren't other products on ebay that are good? No, of course not. But that's the level of comfortability and education that I'm at right now so I don't try to fight outside my weight class. I also realize that some of my comments might not pertain to you, Mygotta. But it seems like there's an awful lot of people on the board lately that are looking for people to tell them it's okay to take the risk. I just don't understand that way of thinking.
Historically, many here have been reluctant to talk in detail about all the "tells" buyers can use to spot resealed items, for fear the pack resealers themselves will use this information to eliminate them.
That said, here is one previous thread on the topic that is interesting if for no other reason than the linked article where Steve Hart from BBCE "estimates that at least 50 percent of the non-authenticated unopened material for sale on eBay shows signs of tampering".
Even if it is only half that number, that's still a frightening prospect.... as I said, stay safe out there and all the best with your growing collection!
Snorto~
<< <i>
<< <i>mygotta, I suggest your keep records of what you buy and the sequence of the cards in the packs.
As you accumulate more and more data about a given issue you will be able to more confidently read whether a material is legit. Granted sequencing is only one of the many tools and practices one should take advantage of when dealing with unopened, but it a very valuable one IMO ... and not one that I think most take advantage of since it requires a lot of extra work (in the long run) when ripping and is quite the tedious process.
If you ever buy 1978 or 1979 Topps Baseball racks and have any question about sequencing please feel free to PM me and I can let you know whether the sequence looks legit or not. While a properly sequenced pack can still be a fake, one that is improperly sequenced is most certainly fake ... and knowing this in the right circumstance can be very useful. >>
Does that offer go to the people who will buy the re-sealed 78 boxes that are about to be sold??????? >>
Especially if the wrappers have a "bubbly" smell to them or a "bubbliness" feel.
Work in progress - Unopened Racks/Cello/Wax with star power for Baseball, Football and Basketball
Collecting unopened 80's boxes and graded packs
I may be hoarding too much 80's junk wax but I like it!
<< <i>With regards to how to detect tampered product, there is information out there on the web.
Historically, many here have been reluctant to talk in detail about all the "tells" buyers can use to spot resealed items, for fear the pack resealers themselves will use this information to eliminate them.
That said, here is one previous thread on the topic that is interesting if for no other reason than the linked article where Steve Hart from BBCE "estimates that at least 50 percent of the non-authenticated unopened material for sale on eBay shows signs of tampering".
Even if it is only half that number, that's still a frightening prospect.... as I said, stay safe out there and all the best with your growing collection!
Snorto~ >>
I would estimate that 50% is a conservative estimate, with the actual % closer to 2/3, or 66%, at least for pre-1980 packs.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It depends on the form.
Safest bet has and probably always will be rack. >>
"There is a big misconception that rack packs are tamper proof by the way they are made and packaged. Well, most people would be shocked to hear me say that this is the BIGGEST problem in the hobby." - Steve Hart, BBCE
What other wisdom you have to share with us today guru-san?
<< <i> I have no worry picking up a 1987 box from any of the companies >>
I don't remember what the 87F Bonds went for raw, maybe $30-40, and the Bo $20, Will Clark $20-35, Sierra maybe $12, Seizter maybe $10-12. There's no doubt some people searched the boxes. I'm sure the same could be said for almost any year in the 80's (Griffey, Grace, Jefferies, Canseco, etc). Just because the cards are not worth much now, doesn't mean they weren't at some point in time. Obviously the incentive to search them now isn't what it once was, but that doesn't mean there isn't "bad" product still circulating out there.
<< <i>
<< <i>With regards to how to detect tampered product, there is information out there on the web.
Historically, many here have been reluctant to talk in detail about all the "tells" buyers can use to spot resealed items, for fear the pack resealers themselves will use this information to eliminate them.
That said, here is one previous thread on the topic that is interesting if for no other reason than the linked article where Steve Hart from BBCE "estimates that at least 50 percent of the non-authenticated unopened material for sale on eBay shows signs of tampering".
Even if it is only half that number, that's still a frightening prospect.... as I said, stay safe out there and all the best with your growing collection!
Snorto~ >>
I would estimate that 50% is a conservative estimate, with the actual % closer to 2/3, or 66%, at least for pre-1980 packs. >>
I agree with you Tim. I find myself buying less and less 70's stuff these days as it is getting so hard to find legit stuff.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>It depends on the form.
Safest bet has and probably always will be rack. >>
Kind of like... "Pete Rose #650 should always be in the 2nd panel, Lance Parrish #469 should always be in the 3rd panel."
Thank you for the link, it is absolutely depressing though.
I am in the same situation as Mike and Tim I believe. I am thankful that I made my purchases of 70s unopened before they dried-up. Certainly, we all wish we had hoarded more, but there was no way to know how shallow the supply was. I am basically done unless I see stuff on BBCE (which I haven't for several years!). I don't really trust the auction houses unless they say that Steve looked at the stuff (REA has done this).
I am also thankful that I have bought my hoard of 1980s unopened from Steve Hart for two reasons. 1. Again, I don't know how shallow the supply is from 1980-85. 2. I bought these when there probably isn't as great a threat to fraud because the values are not anywhere near the 50s through the 70s.
I may steer clear of the forums for a bit because it really depresses me to read some of these threads and there is enough depression in real life with the current state of the country. BBall card collecting's greatest draw for me is to get away from the daily grind. If I want depression, I just need to put on the TV and watch any random reporter interview the typical American: there is no sufficient way to explain how uninformed, uneducated, and just mentally retarded our country has become.
<< <i>
<< <i> I have no worry picking up a 1987 box from any of the companies >>
I don't remember what the 87F Bonds went for raw, maybe $30-40, and the Bo $20, Will Clark $20-35, Sierra maybe $12, Seizter maybe $10-12. There's no doubt some people searched the boxes. I'm sure the same could be said for almost any year in the 80's (Griffey, Grace, Jefferies, Canseco, etc). Just because the cards are not worth much now, doesn't mean they weren't at some point in time. Obviously the incentive to search them now isn't what it once was, but that doesn't mean there isn't "bad" product still circulating out there. >>
Bingo. Same thought as other years also.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I have no worry picking up a 1987 box from any of the companies >>
I don't remember what the 87F Bonds went for raw, maybe $30-40, and the Bo $20, Will Clark $20-35, Sierra maybe $12, Seizter maybe $10-12. There's no doubt some people searched the boxes. I'm sure the same could be said for almost any year in the 80's (Griffey, Grace, Jefferies, Canseco, etc). Just because the cards are not worth much now, doesn't mean they weren't at some point in time. Obviously the incentive to search them now isn't what it once was, but that doesn't mean there isn't "bad" product still circulating out there. >>
Bingo. Same thought as other years also. >>
There's always some "hot" rookie being chased so my response is if it has wax wrapping and no factory shrink wrap suspect it has been searched and/or resealed. Spend some time reviewing how packs are factory sealed (buy some loose packs from Steve) to become familiar with them. Education is your best weapon against resealers.
<< <i>This is true. In years to come, some people who buys packs of 2012 might be grumbling they did not get Bryce Harper in their packs because of all these "hot packs" floating around (although I dont know how they do it). >>
They slowly open one end while being careful not to damage the pack, take out the good stuff, put in the bad stuff and re-glue it. Also, there are Youtube videos of pack "feelers".
<< <i>
<< <i>This is true. In years to come, some people who buys packs of 2012 might be grumbling they did not get Bryce Harper in their packs because of all these "hot packs" floating around (although I dont know how they do it). >>
They slowly open one end while neing careful not to damage the pack, take out the good stuff, put oin thebad stuff and reglue it. Also, there are Youtube videos of pack "feelers". >>
I guess even in our tamper-proof era of packaging, people have found ways around it. So the same logic prevails in modern stuff - buy from trusted sources.
<< <i>This guy Steve needs to write his own book. >>
As much as you post on his fb account,maybe you could ghostwrite
it for him Paul
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
<< <i>Not entirely off topic but I've noticed that the "Dugout Unopened wax" Ebay seller has a lot of unopened 80's material on auction/ BIN. I noticed his prices are slightly higher vs BBCE. Has anyone had any experience with this seller? His feedback is good. Obviously everybody trusts Steve and would like to buy from him when possible but when 20 1982 Topps wax boxes sell out in less than 24hrs and a 1980's basketball box sells in 2 minutes it's not that easy to buy from him. We need a BBCE app that alerts us with a tazer when new 70's or now 80's product shows up on the website. >>
I think a special private login that shows the secret stash that would be offered privately for the first week.
1981 Topps Cello Box
If you read the description and look at the pics, it says:
<< <i>“EVERY PACK HAS HAD A SMALL SLIT PLACED IN CELLOPHANE AND GUM ONLY REMOVED!” >>
Even if the cards are not changed out, the packs are obviously tampered. Removing the gum is not a security measure or necessary. And with lots of stars showing, I am already suspicious of that box.
<< <i>So here is a suspicious box of cards:
1981 Topps Cello Box
If you read the description and look at the pics, it says:
<< <i>“EVERY PACK HAS HAD A SMALL SLIT PLACED IN CELLOPHANE AND GUM ONLY REMOVED!” >>
Even if the cards are not changed out, the packs are obviously tampered. Removing the gum is not a security measure or necessary. And with lots of stars showing, I am already suspicious of that box. >>
I purchased one of these boxes. I am planning to rip. Will be glad to post my results.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>So here is a suspicious box of cards:
1981 Topps Cello Box
If you read the description and look at the pics, it says:
<< <i>“EVERY PACK HAS HAD A SMALL SLIT PLACED IN CELLOPHANE AND GUM ONLY REMOVED!” >>
Even if the cards are not changed out, the packs are obviously tampered. Removing the gum is not a security measure or necessary. And with lots of stars showing, I am already suspicious of that box. >>
I knew a very trusted seller who set up at the Albany, NY shows who used to do the same thing. That is, make a small slit in the cello and remove the gum. He never tampered with the cards, just removed the gum to prevent damage on his older cellos. Not a great thing if you are an unopened collector but if you're ripping it's selling at a better price and more useable cards. Here's hoping David makes out well with that '81 box.
<< <i>I see they are from the dugout, which some sellers have said are a good company. >>
This is what I'm counting on.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>
<< <i>I see they are from the dugout, which some sellers have said are a good company. >>
This is what I'm counting on. >>
Received the box today. Anything you'd like me to check before ripping?
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I see they are from the dugout, which some sellers have said are a good company. >>
This is what I'm counting on. >>
Received the box today. Anything you'd like me to check before ripping? >>
You know what. I sent them an email today and they responded very quickly with this:
<< <i>Thanks for writing.... We just bought a large collection of unopened material. Most of the packs were fleer and donruss (82 & newer) which didn't have gum - However, this customer bought a case of 1981 Topps cellos and promptly made a slit in each pack that is only as wide as the gum (about 2/3rds the length of the pack) so they could remove the gum - they were worried about attracting bugs and mice. You will see by the size of the slit that there is no way to remove a card through it. Packs are all in excellent shape and should yield some high grade cards! We have these available as buy it now and on auction.
Thanks
David >>
So they seem a legit pack to me. The "slits" should be no wider than the gum. Can you verify what they responded with versus what you have in your hand? How is the condition otherwise? Otherwise - rip away! Post pics!!