CABRERA hits .400 and knocks in 187 read it here first
MintMoondog
Posts: 969 ✭
in Sports Talk
I just want to get this out now, and thus can claim bragging rights at the end of this year. I have followed Miggy closely over his career. I believe he is the best pure hitter I have ever seen in my lifetime (been following the game since the mid 1970s). I discount all the steroid players.
He is going to right almost exclusively, this reminds me of Brett's year in which he hit .390 - it seemed like most of his hits were opposite field. I just get a sense that Miggy is such a great player he searches for challenges each year. I believe he is gunning for .400, which means his homer total will be lower. Because he is hitting behind Jackson and Hunter and in front of Fielder...it just looks like the makings of a special year and the higher average will lead to a ton of RBIs
He is going to right almost exclusively, this reminds me of Brett's year in which he hit .390 - it seemed like most of his hits were opposite field. I just get a sense that Miggy is such a great player he searches for challenges each year. I believe he is gunning for .400, which means his homer total will be lower. Because he is hitting behind Jackson and Hunter and in front of Fielder...it just looks like the makings of a special year and the higher average will lead to a ton of RBIs
75 Minis - GET IN MY BELLY!
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If Miggy can do it, then he's just sick too.
<< <i>And Brett was such a likeable guy. >>
You're literally the first person I've ever heard say that. I've heard the exact opposite from lots of people.
His brother Bobby is no great prize, either.
<< <i> The guy basically went 2 for 5 every game of the entire season >>
When making a run on .400 Brett and Gwynn had the advantage of only having to maintain their batting average for closer to half of a season than a full season
<< <i>
When making a run on .400 Brett and Gwynn had the advantage of only having to maintain their batting average for closer to half of a season than a full season >>
Which shows you why Ted Williams and Ty Cobb were beyond sick.
<< <i>
<< <i>And Brett was such a likeable guy. >>
You're literally the first person I've ever heard say that. I've heard the exact opposite from lots of people.
His brother Bobby is no great prize, either. >>
Interesting, maybe I am wrong.
BTW Miggy 2 for 5 another 3 run homer...he is just a couple dingers away from getting back in the HR race and we have the Astros coming into town after the Indians
I could see him winning back to back MVPs. He may at least win the Batting and RBI titles.
My prediction: 39 HR/146 RBI/.337 AVG
<< <i>I could see him winning back to back MVPs. He may at least win the Batting and RBI titles.
My prediction: 39 HR/146 RBI/.337 AVG >>
I can see the guy keeping up the pace (for the most part) for the entire season. If he finishes close to his current pace, I think a unanimous MVP is locked up. Again, though, 100+ left to be played and a lot can happen.
For the year I'll go .371 41 HRs, and 134 RBIs.
Dave
PS Will trade you Miggy for Justin Smoak....straight up!
<< <i>Current pace (through 42 games): .387/42 HRs/181 RBI with a 1.116 OPS >>
Current pace (through 79 games): .375/49 HRs/166 RBI with a 1.139 OPS
Rod was FAMOUS for hitting the other way.
Joe
<< <i>Nice timing on the update, just about 1/2 there. He is in shouting range of .400 and may heat up on the RBIs (they have been playing tough teams over the past 3 weeks). It hurt that they were missing Jackson for a month. The big issue for a 2nd straight triple crown is "crush" Davis for the Orioles. I hate to say this but if you look at the size of this guy compared to a couple years ago - The last time I saw something like this was McGwuire and Sosa. >>
Right, because only Davis is using, and no way Cabrera is. The only that's changed in regards to PED use in MLB isn't the number of guys using it but the success in hiding the new substances from MLB testing (which is a joke already).
<< <i>Right, because only Davis is using, and no way Cabrera is. The only that's changed in regards to PED use in MLB isn't the number of guys using it but the success in hiding the new substances from MLB testing (which is a joke already). >>
What sport do you think has better drug testing than baseball?
A guy with Chris Davis' sizable frame, in his peak muscle-building years, can pack on a ton of lean mass just through hard work; no steroids necessary. Especially with training and nutrition what it is today, you'd be amazed how a dedicated person can transform their physique, let alone a pro-athlete in his prime.
I hope I am wrong - but the guy has had no track record at this level of production - he is going from a 30 HR guy to being on pace for 60. Kinda reminds me of the one year Brady Anderson had where as a leadoff hitter he hit 50 HRs, got a huge contract then when back to nothingness. Similarly, Bobby Higgenson for the Tigers looked like a HoF with an incredibly quick swing, got a huge contract and then immediately reverted to being a mediocre hitter.
Davis is, of course, looks physically different. He does have a huge frame - but look at the guy's forearms (they remind me of Mcgwuire). He does have a sweet swing, but the ball just jumps off his bat like every other steroid user I have seen over the past 15 years. I guess it is the age we live in and I feel guilty for even taking this thread in this direction.
As for Cabrera, he doesn't "look" like he is on steroids (ie Bonds) but if he is ever found to be doping I have sworn on several occasions to walk away from the sport. That would be the final straw.
<< <i>Let's not forget Carew in 1977, 694 plate appearances 239 hits, 38 doubles,16 triples and he even "muscled up" and hit 14 out of the park.
Rod was FAMOUS for hitting the other way.
Joe >>
VERY under-rated! I used to mimic his swing as a young kid...Carew, Brett and Cabrera are the best I have seen going the other way. Cabrera is the only one I have ever seen that can hit with such power opposite field.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think in this era of PEDs there is just too quick a willingness to deem anyone who improves or grows lean mass a steroid user. I am a big believer in innocent until proven guilty; these are, after all, physical specimens paid very well to take care of their bodies and perform-- good old fashioned hard work and experience can surely lead to improvements and for many players I believe it does. Let's look at guys like Greg Maddux and even Koufax, who took a while to hit their full stride. And let's all recall what Roger Maris' stat sheet looks like, with that anomalous 61 and never even 40 in another season. Today many would deem them PED users when they were not.
In the end, baseball is a tough game and sometimes it takes a while to get locked in-- and every once in a while it all comes together for a talented player. Also, as someone who trains hard and competes in fitness contests myself, I can personally attest to the drastic physical changes one can make through extreme training; if non-professionals can attain great amounts of lean muscle, surely guys getting paid millions to stay in great shape can do it, too.
<< <i>With respect to Davis, he is at his absolute peak physically and has shown great power in the past. Now he is playing regularly and learned the league a bit better. Plus though he is on pace for 60, he will likely tail off. I think that is a huge difference from say Brady Anderson, who hit 50 at age 32 after many years of much lower power. Davis after all is a huge man.
I think in this era of PEDs there is just too quick a willingness to deem anyone who improves or grows lean mass a steroid user. I am a big believer in innocent until proven guilty; these are, after all, physical specimens paid very well to take care of their bodies and perform-- good old fashioned hard work and experience can surely lead to improvements and for many players I believe it does. Let's look at guys like Greg Maddux and even Koufax, who took a while to hit their full stride. And let's all recall what Roger Maris' stat sheet looks like, with that anomalous 61 and never even 40 in another season. Today many would deem them PED users when they were not.
In the end, baseball is a tough game and sometimes it takes a while to get locked in-- and every once in a while it all comes together for a talented player. Also, as someone who trains hard and competes in fitness contests myself, I can personally attest to the drastic physical changes one can make through extreme training; if non-professionals can attain great amounts of lean muscle, surely guys getting paid millions to stay in great shape can do it, too. >>
Matty,
I would agree with the spirit of your post except that the overwhelming evidence suggests that many if not the majority of MLB players have used or are using PEDs in their career. It's just the reality of the situation and the state of the game today. Clemens and Bonds never failed a test or were convicted either but I doubt anyone including them believes they are clean.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
YEAR TEAM GP AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG
2008 TEX 80 295 51 84 23 2 17 55 20 88 1 2 .285
2009 TEX 113 391 48 93 15 1 21 59 24 150 0 0 .238
2010 TEX 45 120 7 23 9 0 1 4 15 40 3 0 .192 .279
2011 BAL 31 123 16 34 9 0 2 13 6 39 1 0 .276
2011 TEX 28 76 9 19 3 0 3 6 5 24 0 0 .250 .296
2011 Total 59 199 25 53 12 0 5 19 11 63 1 0 .266
2012 BAL 139 515 75 139 20 0 33 85 37 169 2 3 .270
2013 BAL 81 294 59 98 25 0 30 79 35 89 0 0 .333
Aside from Maris and Koufax, who saw some marked improvement, George Brett hit well over his past averages the year he dropped .390.
In 1982 Robin Yount went from a career .275ish mark to hit .333.
Paul Molitor dropped a .353 mark in 1987 and his prior seasons were .280 and .290.
In 1973 Davey Johnson hit 43 HR, his next highest was 18 in a season.
George Foster was in the league around seven years I believe before erupting for some huge HR totals, eclipsing 50 then hitting 40, and aside from that never hit 30.
I have to fall short of joining some sportswriters who convict a guy like say Bagwell for having muscles. I could probably train those same sportswriters for 12 weeks and shock them with how they'd look at the end. So basically for me a pro athlete having a great physique or improving his skills just cannot be used as proof of cheating.
Just as it would be an injustice to a clean player to lose a triple crown to a juiced player, so would it be a great injustice for someone to achieve something great while playing clean, but be falsely smeared as being juiced. In fact I think that would be just as great a tragedy, to work your ass off and train your ass off and then have all your hard work and focus dismissed falsely.
Maddux had these ERAs... 5.61, 3.18, 2.95, 3.46, and 3.35... then he dropped into the low 2s and 1s. That is a huge improvement of over a run a game.
Duke Snider's first four seasons, he was a 20-30 HR guy. Then he suddenly becomes a 40 HR guy.
Sandberg has a very anomalous 40HR year after being a guy who averaged about 20 for many years prior.
Alomar was a single-digit HR guy until he suddenly learns to hit 20+ a year.
Dawson's 87 season would surely be met with steroid talk today.
Ripken has a pretty substantial power surge in 1991, going from three straight years at 23,21,and 21 HRs to a whopping 34.
Johnny Bench began by hitting 15 and then 26 HR in his first two full seasons...then erupts for 45.
Before age 30, Dwight Evans had never hit 30 HR, reaching 20 only 3 times in 8 full seasons. Then from age 30 on he hits 30HR+ three times.
Going way back, Zack Wheat, over his first 11 years, hit about 7 HR a year. Then he starts hitting 14.
Darrell Evans has two very strange 40HR campaigns, separated by almost a decade of averaging closer to 20 a year.
In 1945, Phil Cavarretta wins the batting title with a .353 average. In his first seven seasons he was more like a .270 hitter.
Keith Hernandez begins his career like this... .250, .289, .291, .255... then .344.
All these examples and the others mentioned above indicate, to me, that a player making great strides is in no way proof positive of using steroids. Doubtless we could dig around baseball reference and find many, many more instances of improvement along the lines of say Chris Davis. And someone like Cano who right around an athlete's peak years of 27-30 begins to hit his best stride.
<< <i>Good points Matt, cant argue with you on that, but I can only use my own eyes and judgment and then apologize if I am wrong. However, I haven't been wrong yet, just not proven right in many instances
Bonds gave sworn testimony that he 'unknowingly' took the 'cream and the clear'. He was a great, great player before 1999, when he started using and his home run numbers started getting ridiculous. Just like Cabrera, he was a fantastic player who took a leap. Why do you let your fandom of Cabrera keep you from suspecting him? It doesn't seem suspicious that we haven't had a triple crown winner since Yaz, and now this guy is on the doorstep of doing in back to back years?
Regarding Cano, I would not agree that he has never been linked to any possible steroid use, as his name was being investigated as recently as a couple months back as being involved with the Biogenesis Steroid Clinic.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Good points Matt, cant argue with you on that, but I can only use my own eyes and judgment and then apologize if I am wrong. However, I haven't been wrong yet, just not proven right in many instances
Bonds gave sworn testimony that he 'unknowingly' took the 'cream and the clear'. He was a great, great player before 1999, when he started using and his home run numbers started getting ridiculous. Just like Cabrera, he was a fantastic player who took a leap. Why do you let your fandom of Cabrera keep you from suspecting him? It doesn't seem suspicious that we haven't had a triple crown winner since Yaz, and now this guy is on the doorstep of doing in back to back years? >>
Yes I am a huge fan, I don't suspect him because 1. Stats last year were NOT out of line with any of his stats the previous year/s. Look them up. He just happened to catch a year where everything fell into place. 2. He is entering the prime years of his career. 3. He has a DECADE of strong hitting to back up the potential for a super year. 4. He has Fielder behind him and Jackson and Hunter ahead of him, if you know anything about the Tigers you know that they have had a hell of a time finding anyone to hit in the number two hole for years. 5. He does not "look" like someone who has taken HGH. In fact he looks thinner after he stopped drinking and began taking better care of his body. (Contrast Bonds and similar individuals like the guy under discussion: for example, Pudge Rodriquez who I used to be a huge fan of probably did HGH while in Texas, and stopped when he was in Detroit and his body shrunk like a raisen. When guys take HGH heavily and works out they look like professional wrestlers or NFL players). 6. He has never been linked to any HGH or even rumored.
Am I 100% certain? No, of course not. Just as I have never said I was even remotely certain about Davis - just suspicious given his previous track record, the way he looks now, and the way the ball has suddenly begun to jump off his bat last year and this year. I could be wrong, wish we didn't have to talk about these things but it is what it is in this day and age...
I'm just saying that any logic that convicts Davis or Cano would convict Johnny Bench and many of the others I've mentioned.
End of the day, for me, it doesn't matter because I am trapped in the past collecting Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle cards-- so those heroes of mine are pretty free from steroid allegations.
That said, I think it's a major crime if someone utterly innocent is working their tail off and achieving their dream during their prime as a pro athlete, and some folks on couches or some nerd sportswriters who have never touched a weight or hit a ball can just smear them, either because they have some muscles or because they are improving. I guarantee that Henry would look at a picture of me before my last contest and then after, and swear I was on HGH or steroids-- when I am the type who doesn't even like to take Advil. Heck my doctor even asked if I was taking "supplements."
I understand what has happened in the past opens a door now for anyone to look skeptically at anyone who performs or improves like the examples I cited above. But I'm the type who sides with the old saying, "It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death." I agree that PEDs are pervasive, I just refuse to let those bad apples ruin the way I look at any athlete performing well or improving. PEDs make you look and perform better-- but so does talent + hard work. I believe there are cases of the former and latter out there, not all one or the other.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
Yes I am a huge fan, I don't suspect him because 1. Stats last year were NOT out of line with any of his stats the previous year/s. Look them up. He just happened to catch a year where everything fell into place. 2. He is entering the prime years of his career. >>
Exactly the same argument can be made for Davis.
<< <i>3. He has a DECADE of strong hitting to back up the potential for a super year. >>
He had it last year, and, again, we're supposed to ignore that there's not been a triple crown winner since the 60s and suddenly a guy is threatening to do it in back to back years?
<< <i>4. He has Fielder behind him and Jackson and Hunter ahead of him, if you know anything about the Tigers you know that they have had a hell of a time finding anyone to hit in the number two hole for years. >>
Completely and totally irrelevant to the discussion about Cabrera's potential for PED use.
5. He does not "look" like someone who has taken HGH. In fact he looks thinner after he stopped drinking and began taking better care of his body. (Contrast Bonds and similar individuals like the guy under discussion: for example, Pudge Rodriquez who I used to be a huge fan of probably did HGH while in Texas, and stopped when he was in Detroit and his body shrunk like a raisen. When guys take HGH heavily and works out they look like professional wrestlers or NFL players). 6. He has never been linked to any HGH or even rumored. >>
You're confusing steroids with HGH, and I would suspect that most of the guys who have been busted for testing positive for PED use don't 'look' the part. Other than you I don't know anyone floating the rumor that Davis is using, either.
<< <i>Am I 100% certain? No, of course not. Just as I have never said I was even remotely certain about Davis - just suspicious given his previous track record, the way he looks now, and the way the ball has suddenly begun to jump off his bat last year and this year. I could be wrong, wish we didn't have to talk about these things but it is what it is in this day and age... >>
What? He hit 33 home runs last year, and has obviously taken a step forward this year. His OBP is drastically higher as well. He's already walked as much this year as he did entirely last year. It's entirely possible, that, you know, the guy just has gotten better at identifying balls that are worth hitting? But because he's standing in the way of Cabrera and the triple crown he must be using?
Ridiculous.
<< <i> Clemens and Bonds never failed a test or were convicted either but I doubt anyone including them believes they are clean. >>
Clemens and Bonds weren't given tests until the very end of their careers, 2005 was the first year of binding drug tests. Clemens started using during the 1997 season, according to the Mitchell Report. Bonds started using before 1999, according to Game of Shadows. What similar sort of documentation indicts Davis to illegal drug use?
<< <i>
<< <i> Clemens and Bonds never failed a test or were convicted either but I doubt anyone including them believes they are clean. >>
Clemens and Bonds weren't given tests until the very end of their careers, 2005 was the first year of binding drug tests. Clemens started using during the 1997 season, according to the Mitchell Report. Bonds started using before 1999, according to Game of Shadows. What similar sort of documentation indicts Davis to illegal drug use? >>
I never suggested Davis wasn't clean, just that I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't, same with any other player in today's game.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I was suspicious for many years on Cano based on his body and the power he was generating. I still dont know but I dont own any of his cards. I loved Pudge, bought a boatload of his cards, but I am 100% certain that he was juicing while in Texas and for a short time in Detroit so I am off his bandwagon.
<< <i>Neither I nor Tim is stating that he is...as my teenager says to his spastic friends "chillax" - >>
False. You said specifically:
"but I can only use my own eyes and judgment and then apologize if I am wrong. However, I haven't been wrong yet, just not proven right in many instances"
These are your own words saying "I've never been wrong about PED users, and he LOOKS like a PED user".
<< <i> I am saying that I am suspicious based on his statistical history, watching him hit - specifically how the ball flies off his bat, and the fact that he is on pace to hit over 60 HRs and is hitting over .330 at the AS Break with NO prior history that he is as good as Ruth or Aaron. >>
Roger Maris used PEDs by this line of reasoning.
<< <i>That is all I am saying and to be honest I am entitled to be suspicious. >>
But to suggest that Cabrera is juicing is somehow heresy. We've seen all time great players like Bonds succumb to the allure of PED use to elevate their game, why is Cabrera immune? I mean if we're going out on a limb and saying Davis *might* be?
<< <i> I challenge you to find a statement by me that asserts with any certainty that Davis is juicing. >>
See above.
<< <i>I was suspicious for many years on Cano based on his body and the power he was generating. I still dont know but I dont own any of his cards. I loved Pudge, bought a boatload of his cards, but I am 100% certain that he was juicing while in Texas and for a short time in Detroit so I am off his bandwagon. >>
I've already pointed out as to why Davis is producing so much more. His ability to pick up strikes is vastly improved, and no, that's not something a PED is going to help with. As to why he didn't produce in big numbers before, it's a combination of lack of playing time (2012 was the first time since 2009 he played more than 100 games) and improvement in plate discipline. We saw his power last year, hitting 30 bombs. Comparing him to Brady Anderson is a ridiculous jump - the most HR's Anderson had hit before his 50 bomb season was 21, hardly the crusher than Davis is.
I dont know what your issue is but Im bored with this - thank you for your exceptional cross-examination - best of luck on your auditions for CSI
<< <i>1985fan,
I dont know what your issue is but Im bored with this - thank you for your exceptional cross-examination - best of luck on your auditions for CSI >>
My only issue is you can't on one hand kinda-sorta accuse Davis of using PEDs while giving Cabrera a free pass. And despite your objections, you did call him one. Without looking at his history (yes, its relevant) you can't just out and say 'PED user!'
Try some research next time would be my advice.