Not that there's anything wrong with that
jdip9
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24 hours after a pretty big sports story hits, and no Jason Collins thread - now there IS something wrong with that.
What I find somewhat amusing in this whole story is the presumption that Jason Collins is still an ACTIVE player. He is 34 years and isn't (and has never been) very good at basketball, and is exactly the type of center that is being phased out of the game (back to the basket, no outside game). The Celtics are the worst rebounding team in the playoffs, knew they had no frontcourt depth, yet traded him for another shooting guard, which they didn't need - that explains all you need to know about whether Collins can still play. He can't.
I'm sure David Stern will make sure somebody signs him, because he won't want to deal with the frivolous discrimination lawsuit that would ultimately come if Collins never played in the NBA again. So, my question is, what type of team signs him in the off-season? Certainly not a contender, who's not going to waste a roster spot on someone that can't help them, and will only lead to distractions.
Perhaps a young team looking for veteran leadership will sign him. Publicly, everybody is saying all the right things right now to make him feel accepted, but my gut tells me that in the off-season, if given the choice between two washed up centers that both aren't very good at basketball, a team would rather choose the straight guy over the gay guy, which will be a shame. Because, as great as this story is right now, if he isn't on an NBA team next season (and skill-wise, he probably shouldn't be), we still won't understand how the "locker room dynamic" changes with a homosexual in the room....which, I maintain, is the only thing that makes this story interesting at all.
What I find somewhat amusing in this whole story is the presumption that Jason Collins is still an ACTIVE player. He is 34 years and isn't (and has never been) very good at basketball, and is exactly the type of center that is being phased out of the game (back to the basket, no outside game). The Celtics are the worst rebounding team in the playoffs, knew they had no frontcourt depth, yet traded him for another shooting guard, which they didn't need - that explains all you need to know about whether Collins can still play. He can't.
I'm sure David Stern will make sure somebody signs him, because he won't want to deal with the frivolous discrimination lawsuit that would ultimately come if Collins never played in the NBA again. So, my question is, what type of team signs him in the off-season? Certainly not a contender, who's not going to waste a roster spot on someone that can't help them, and will only lead to distractions.
Perhaps a young team looking for veteran leadership will sign him. Publicly, everybody is saying all the right things right now to make him feel accepted, but my gut tells me that in the off-season, if given the choice between two washed up centers that both aren't very good at basketball, a team would rather choose the straight guy over the gay guy, which will be a shame. Because, as great as this story is right now, if he isn't on an NBA team next season (and skill-wise, he probably shouldn't be), we still won't understand how the "locker room dynamic" changes with a homosexual in the room....which, I maintain, is the only thing that makes this story interesting at all.
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<< <i>if given the choice between two washed up centers that both aren't very good at basketball, a team would rather choose the straight guy over the gay guy... >>
Another factor is that Collins is going to come with a lot more media attention than any other generic washed up center.
<< <i>we still won't understand how the "locker room dynamic" changes with a homosexual in the room....which, I maintain, is the only thing that makes this story interesting at all. >>
In this issue, players will likely give an answer from the following list:
1) "It's cool, I don't care, just go out there and play hard."
2) <see option 1>
Can a pro athlete really answer to the contrary without being punished?
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As Chris Broussard is finding out, NOBODY can say anything that even remotely suggests something negative about a person that is gay. I agree every player will publicly "toe the company line", all the while hoping some other team signs him, so he won't have to do box-out drills in practice with Collins.
<< <i>
As Chris Broussard is finding out, NOBODY can say anything that even remotely suggests something negative about a person that is gay. I agree every player will publicly "toe the company line", all the while hoping some other team signs him, so he won't have to do box-out drills in practice with Collins. >>
Are you really suggesting that every player in the NBA doesn't want him as a teammate because he is gay?
If it was true, if anyone was persecuted for their beliefs, they would be able to find support among the 100% of other players who agree with them
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<< <i>The bottom line of acceptance will be this: when a STAR player comes out, what happens to the memorabilia of that player? For example, lets say Carmelo Anthony comes out. What happens to Carmelo jersey sales the following year? Do 13 year old boys in the Bronx still wear a Carmelo shirt? I'd like to think our society is to the point where it wouldn't matter. But, I'll bet Carmelo jersey sales would go down (at least in youth sizes). >>
It would destroy his jersey/memorabilia sales if that were the case, and I would rather hope our society is to the point where people can give their own opinion without the threat of retaliation IE: Being OK to think a man lying with another man is wrong, just as thinking it is ok.
Trust me these proffesional athletes care about one thing and that is money, they will all pretty much act as if they are cool with having a gay teamate so as not to upset the apple cart but in reality they wont be looking forward to changing or showering with this guy in the locker room- FACT like it or not.
<< <i>To criticize Chris Broussard for having an opinion is .............wait for it............discrimination. >>
Criticism is not the same as discrimination. To say "It is wrong to be gay" would be criticizing him. To say "You cannot work in the NBA for being gay" would be discrimination. That is a huge difference
<< <i>Why isn't Chris Broussard also speaking out against eating shellfish, getting tattoos, or women who get epidurals during childbirth? As a God-fearing man myself I see these edicts flouted every day, and it drive me absolutely crazy with rage. >>
Did they ask Chris Broussard about his views on eating shellfish, getting tats, or epidurals? I must have missed that part.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Why isn't Chris Broussard also speaking out against eating shellfish, getting tattoos, or women who get epidurals during childbirth? As a God-fearing man myself I see these edicts flouted every day, and it drive me absolutely crazy with rage. >>
Did they ask Chris Broussard about his views on eating shellfish, getting tats, or epidurals? I must have missed that part. >>
No- but when you're one of God's spokesmen you don't wait until someone asks your opinion. These matters are far too pressing to be marginalized simply because the debate over the sin in question isn't topical.
<< <i>
<< <i>if given the choice between two washed up centers that both aren't very good at basketball, a team would rather choose the straight guy over the gay guy... >>
Another factor is that Collins is going to come with a lot more media attention than any other generic washed up center.
<< <i>we still won't understand how the "locker room dynamic" changes with a homosexual in the room....which, I maintain, is the only thing that makes this story interesting at all. >>
In this issue, players will likely give an answer from the following list:
1) "It's cool, I don't care, just go out there and play hard."
2) <see option 1>
Can a pro athlete really answer to the contrary without being punished? >>
No, they can't. And if you ask an athlete 'do you have any issues playing with Latinos', or 'do you have any issues playing with Blacks', there is also no contrary answer that an athlete can offer without facing public ridicule and scorn.
That said, nobody seems upset by the fact that no pro athlete can be openly racist.
<< <i>No- but when you're one of God's spokesmen you don't wait until someone asks your opinion. >>
Ah, so you're projecting. Got it.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>No- but when you're one of God's spokesmen you don't wait until someone asks your opinion. >>
Ah, so you're projecting. Got it. >>
If you're telling us that Jason Collins stands in defiance of Christ, then yes- I'm 'projecting' that you are purporting to know the will of God, and that you are speaking on His behalf.
The bottom line is that the Bible contains a veritable laundry list of ridiculous rules, edicts and guidelines that one must follow to be considered virtuous. So, if you're going to point to the Bible as your source for what constitutes virtuous behavior, you're going to have to also address those passages (such as those that condone slavery, etc.) that stand completely at odds with what any sane individual living in the 21st century would believe.
<< <i>The bottom line is that the Bible contains a veritable laundry list of ridiculous rules, edicts and guidelines that one must follow to be considered virtuous. So, if you're going to point to the Bible as your source for what constitutes virtuous behavior, you're going to have to also address those passages (such as those that condone slavery, etc.) that stand completely at odds with what any sane individual living in the 21st century would believe. >>
Sounds like you really don't like people who use the Bible.
Chris Broussard was asked to give his opinion on something. He gave it. If he launched into a dissertation about all that other stuff, it would have been off-topic.
Maybe Broussard is saving his opinion on shell fish, tats, and epidurals for a time when those things are the topic of the day.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i> He is 34 years and isn't (and has never been) very good at basketball >>
I'm pretty sure you have to be somewhat skilled to play in the NBA.
<< <i>24 hours after a pretty big sports story hits, and no Jason Collins thread - now there IS something wrong with that. >>
I actually think that says a lot about our society. Of course advocates will party in the streets but overall, it's been a resounding, "Uh, okay. Great for him." That shows acceptance, regardless of sexual preference, and it's a good thing.
<< <i>
<< <i>The bottom line is that the Bible contains a veritable laundry list of ridiculous rules, edicts and guidelines that one must follow to be considered virtuous. So, if you're going to point to the Bible as your source for what constitutes virtuous behavior, you're going to have to also address those passages (such as those that condone slavery, etc.) that stand completely at odds with what any sane individual living in the 21st century would believe. >>
Sounds like you really don't like people who use the Bible.
Chris Broussard was asked to give his opinion on something. He gave it. If he launched into a dissertation about all that other stuff, it would have been off-topic.
Maybe Broussard is saving his opinion on shell fish, tats, and epidurals for a time when those things are the topic of the day. >>
Perhaps he is. Time will tell.
I'm not sure how someone 'uses' the Bible, but I do think that any appeal to the Bible to justify a particular belief or action is intellectually immature, given the amount of clear and obvious nonsense that the book contains. And as for the larger question that seems to be at play here, which is whether or not people like Broussard should be criticized for what they said after Collins' announcement, I think it's a healthy sign for our culture going forward that these people did meet significant resistance.
At the same time, the straight athletes might be weary of the openly gay athlete as he moves around in the locker room, worrying that he's trying to sneak a peek at their junk or something.
They keep girls and boys in separate locker rooms to eliminate that sort of awkwardness and fear.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
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Ralph
<< <i>And as for the larger question that seems to be at play here, which is whether or not people like Broussard should be criticized for what they said after Collins' announcement, I think it's a healthy sign for our culture going forward that these people did meet significant resistance. >>
Criticism is fine, as long as it stays civil. If people start throwing bricks through Broussard or Collins windows, or letting the air out of their tires, or worse, then things are going too far.
Does the "significant reistance" you speak of only involve criticism against the individual (e.g. angry letters from listeners, newspaper columns, message boards, etc), or actual punishment? (e.g. loss of job, forced restitution)
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>I think it's a healthy sign for our culture going forward that these people did meet significant resistance. >>
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Chris Broussard was asked to give his opinion on something. He gave it. If he launched into a dissertation about all that other stuff, it would have been off-topic.
Maybe Broussard is saving his opinion on shell fish, tats, and epidurals for a time when those things are the topic of the day. >>
I'm not sure how someone 'uses' the Bible, but I do think that any appeal to the Bible to justify a particular belief or action is intellectually immature, given the amount of clear and obvious nonsense that the book contains. >>
Boopotts- You're likely misunderstanding a key piece of the puzzle here. Chris Broussard wasn't using the Bible to justify a particular belief that he already held. He was a describing a point of view that he had BECAUSE that point of view was espoused in the bible.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>A brilliant move by Collins. He has procured a spot on someones roster next year. >>
Saying the NBA uses sexual orientation as part of the hiring process is a very heavy allegation. Is there any evidence for this or is it just something you pulled out of your backside?
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Ralph
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<< <i>Just common sense. No team will want the scrutiny and accusations when they cut him. BTW what difference where my opinion came from? Isn't this thread about nothing being wrong about what anyone pulls out of his backside? >>
Common sense says NBA teams sign players they think will help them win. If you believed a team would be under too much scrutiny to ever cut him, why would you believe any team would want to sign him?
<< <i>
<< <i>Just common sense. No team will want the scrutiny and accusations when they cut him. BTW what difference where my opinion came from? Isn't this thread about nothing being wrong about what anyone pulls out of his backside? >>
Common sense says NBA teams sign players they think will help them win. If you believed a team would be under too much scrutiny to ever cut him, why would you believe any team would want to sign him? >>
Agreed, this guy is going to make his money off the court in book deals, possibly a movie and many interviews by morons who think this is the biggest story ever.
<< <i>
<< <i>And as for the larger question that seems to be at play here, which is whether or not people like Broussard should be criticized for what they said after Collins' announcement, I think it's a healthy sign for our culture going forward that these people did meet significant resistance. >>
Criticism is fine, as long as it stays civil. If people start throwing bricks through Broussard or Collins windows, or letting the air out of their tires, or worse, then things are going too far.
Does the "significant reistance" you speak of only involve criticism against the individual (e.g. angry letters from listeners, newspaper columns, message boards, etc), or actual punishment? (e.g. loss of job, forced restitution) >>
I think a loss of job would be way out of line- and I thought the same thing when Rush Limbaugh (whom I despise) lost his job after his remarks about Donovan McNabb, or when Steve Lyons made the wallet joke during an MLB broadcast.
Chris Broussard is intellectually immature, but that should not be a fireable offense.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And as for the larger question that seems to be at play here, which is whether or not people like Broussard should be criticized for what they said after Collins' announcement, I think it's a healthy sign for our culture going forward that these people did meet significant resistance. >>
Criticism is fine, as long as it stays civil. If people start throwing bricks through Broussard or Collins windows, or letting the air out of their tires, or worse, then things are going too far.
Does the "significant reistance" you speak of only involve criticism against the individual (e.g. angry letters from listeners, newspaper columns, message boards, etc), or actual punishment? (e.g. loss of job, forced restitution) >>
I think a loss of job would be way out of line- and I thought the same thing when Rush Limbaugh (whom I despise) lost his job after his remarks about Donovan McNabb, or when Steve Lyons made the wallet joke during an MLB broadcast.
Chris Broussard is intellectually immature, but that should not be a fireable offense. >>
He's "intellectually immature" because his opinion is formed out of religious text that you disagree with? Geez Boopotts, you've hit a new low...... Not a big fan of religious freedoms huh?
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And as for the larger question that seems to be at play here, which is whether or not people like Broussard should be criticized for what they said after Collins' announcement, I think it's a healthy sign for our culture going forward that these people did meet significant resistance. >>
Criticism is fine, as long as it stays civil. If people start throwing bricks through Broussard or Collins windows, or letting the air out of their tires, or worse, then things are going too far.
Does the "significant reistance" you speak of only involve criticism against the individual (e.g. angry letters from listeners, newspaper columns, message boards, etc), or actual punishment? (e.g. loss of job, forced restitution) >>
I think a loss of job would be way out of line- and I thought the same thing when Rush Limbaugh (whom I despise) lost his job after his remarks about Donovan McNabb, or when Steve Lyons made the wallet joke during an MLB broadcast.
Chris Broussard is intellectually immature, but that should not be a fireable offense. >>
He's "intellectually immature" because his opinion is formed out of religious text that you disagree with? Geez Boopotts, you've hit a new low...... Not a big fan of religious freedoms huh? >>
You are starting to make yourself look silly.
There's nothing in my posts here that would suggest I'm opposed to religious freedom.
Semi-related I was talking yesterday to a client who had a cup of coffee with the Broncos in the 80's. I said I was sure there would be some jokes/comments, in the locker room, behind Collins' back. He said, "no, most likely jokes right out in front of him... but, at the end of the day the team is a tight knit family and their goal is to win basketball games so it will be a non-issue."
<< <i>You are starting to make yourself look silly.
There's nothing in my posts here that would suggest I'm opposed to religious freedom. >>
It may not be your intent but you're also giving this non-religious person that impression. Does that make me look silly and "intellectually immature" as well?
<< <i>
<< <i>You are starting to make yourself look silly.
There's nothing in my posts here that would suggest I'm opposed to religious freedom. >>
It may not be your intent but you're also giving this non-religious person that impression. Does that make me look silly and "intellectually immature" as well? >>
I don't know how you can read my posts here and infer that I'm opposed to religious freedom. There's absolutely nothing in them that suggests that. In fact, I've even gone so far as to stress that I don't think Chris Broussard should lose his job- and, moreover, I would be disappointed in ESPN if he did, just as i was disappointed when Rush Limbaugh lost his.
There is an enormous gulf between thinking religion, in the main, stems critical thought and curbs intellectual development, and thinking that it should be outlawed/banned/regulated. If you want to pray to Jesus, Allah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that's 100% fine with me; just don't expect me to take is seriously.
Best line of the thread so far.....That would be one league that he could be relevant in though.
<< <i>
now THAT is funny.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
Broussard and others are entitled to their opinions on the issue, be they pro, con or indifferent. Borussard, however, is employed to provide his opinion and as such, is at the mercy of his employers and their determination with regard to the potential backlash or support for his public statements and said responses will weigh greatly when his contract comes up for renewal.
Collins has admitted that he is gay. That's it. He has asked for nothing. He has not stated that he's been mistreated or denied employment and he has not requested any special treatment of consideration. He just cleared his conscience. Whether another team signs him or not remains a question. He's a marginal player at best and in the waning years of an nondescript career. If he isn't signed to a contract, it may be the result of his coming out, but it may just be because he isn't that good of a player. Regardless, if he doesn't not get signed, I hope it is solely based upon his limited ability and not his orientation. Likewise, if he is resigned, I hope that it isn't for some sort of publicity maneuver. His future should be based solely on the merits of his abilities and my guess is that would be all that Jason Collins would want. That should be all that all of us want.
"As long as he plays hard"
I lol'd
<< <i>Broussard and others are entitled to their opinions on the issue, be they pro, con or indifferent. Borussard, however, is employed to provide his opinion and as such, is at the mercy of his employers and their determination with regard to the potential backlash or support for his public statements and said responses will weigh greatly when his contract comes up for renewal.
>>
Scott- This is not correct. An employer does not legally have the right to tell any of their employees that they can't express an opinion if that opinion is part of their religion. Furthermore, if his contract was not renewed by ESPN and part of the reason for the non-renewal was due to ESPN's not liking Broussard's statement, then that too would be an infringement on Broussard's rights under the US Constitution. I guess I'll be the Religious Liberties police on the thread from here on because there seems to be much confusion about it.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>Scott, I find it hard to believe that he doesnt have some sort of agenda. I mean why is he coming out now and announcing he is gay after all this time? In my opinion gays have come a long way and have little discrimination to deal with in this day and age. Maybe Im wrong but the fact that his mediocre career is winding down is I think he or his agent thinks this publicity stunt will get him attention that might become profitible. >>
Bingo!
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Ralph
I think this is pretty accurate...I really don't think that players will be wondering if a guy like Collins is "looking their junk." These guys are professional athletes and their goal is to succeed on the court/field. I don't think the vast majority of them are going to ruminating about a teammate's sexual preferences whern it comes to trying to win.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Scott, I find it hard to believe that he doesnt have some sort of agenda. I mean why is he coming out now and announcing he is gay after all this time? In my opinion gays have come a long way and have little discrimination to deal with in this day and age. Maybe Im wrong but the fact that his mediocre career is winding down is I think he or his agent thinks this publicity stunt will get him attention that might become profitible. >>
The idea that being gay is more profitable than being straight is absolutely ridiculous.
If being gay is more profitable than being straight, why hasn't there ever been an openly gay athlete in any of the major pro sports before?
<< <i>Scott- This is not correct. An employer does not legally have the right to tell any of their employees that they can't express an opinion if that opinion is part of their religion >>
mcadams- This is not correct. Ng v Jacobs
Ms. Ng’s activities were specifically directed at unwilling co-workers whom she hoped to convert to her religious beliefs. Therefore, she violated reasonable company policies which was wrong.
Furthermore, if he is let go by ESPN, it almost certainly will be for reasons other than expressing religious belief. ESPN is constantly dropping and changing talent and there is no evidence they have ever done so for that reason. Almost always it is because of customer demand and a focus on company profits
<< <i>
<< <i>Scott- This is not correct. An employer does not legally have the right to tell any of their employees that they can't express an opinion if that opinion is part of their religion >>
mcadams- This is not correct. Ng v Jacobs
Ms. Ng’s activities were specifically directed at unwilling co-workers whom she hoped to convert to her religious beliefs. Therefore, she violated reasonable company policies which was wrong. >>
The case you cited isn't even in the same ballpark. Despite numerous warnings to cease using her work facilities and email system to actively convert uninterested co-workers on a mass basis, which crossed the line into harassment, she kept at it. Huge difference between expressing an opinion and constantly violating company policies.
This section sums it up pretty well:
<< <i>The trial court found that plaintiff was prohibited from proselytizing in the workplace by company policies on anti-harassment and e-mail usage. Although defendant told plaintiff she could use her private e-mail account to send messages to willing recipients, and that she could conduct her religious activities outside of its building, plaintiff refused those suggestions.
The trial court found no evidence that defendant applied its policies in an inconsistent manner or that other employees were permitted to engage in religious proselytizing in the workplace. Complaints from plaintiff�s coworkers regarding her proselytizing activities in the workplace exposed defendant to potential liability for religious harassment claims by the coworkers if plaintiff were allowed to continue her proselytizing. The court concluded that each of plaintiff�s causes of action failed based on these undisputed facts, and because defendant was not required to permit an employee to impose her religious views on other employees or to allow its facilities to be used for religious purposes. >>
What would happen if a major sponsor told ESPN "Either he goes, or we go." Would they be allowed to let him go in that case? Or would that infringe his rights under the US Constitution?
<< <i>stown,
What would happen if a major sponsor told ESPN "Either he goes, or we go." Would they be allowed to let him go in that case? Or would that infringe his rights under the US Constitution? >>
I honestly don't know the legal ramifications of that hypothetical situation. mcadams may know..