1975 Topps Standard Vs. Mini
mygotta
Posts: 1,652
Growing up, I was always under the impression that the 75 Mini was much rarer than the standard size. Yes, it seems that the standard sells better and at higher prices. Is this because more people are interested in the standard size than the or is the mini have more high end examples available, or are there plenty more Minis available than I originally thought?
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Seriously though, they are beasts to find primo examples of and sell for insane sums in high grade, from the commons ($1000+ for some PSA 9s) to the stars-- not that there are many extant PSA 10 HOF minis. The Brett 9 is breaking new ground right now in fact, with the last topping 1K and the current one on ebay set to hit that same mark.
There is also a great group of guys on these boards deep, deep into the set-- it has wondrous nuances and idiosyncracies. I would venture that price-wise high-end minis hold their own or outperform the regular 75s. The guys to opine here would be Mintmoondog or Miniduff, among others. I know the minis very well but cannot speak too much to the market for their bigger brethren.
Dan
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<< <i>mygotta I was just having this exact conversation with mattyc...about how the Minis were always the more valuable cards, usually selling at 1.5 to 2 times the regular cards. I am not sure how or why that changed but it did. That being said, as matty said, there are some die hard dedicated collectors of minis that I think are driving them up and making them a little more level again. I personally think they're really cool and one of my favorite sets from the 1970's. I've been "investing" in some high dollar high grade minis of late and think there is a lot more room for growth vs. the regular issues. >>
That was my original thinking as well. Back in the 80's when I was introduced to cards, my older cousin showed me the 75 mini's and thought they were cool looking. Coming back some 20 years later, I had a 75 mini Aaron #660 (?) and it was relatively the same or less value than its standard counterpart and was found it odd. I just got back a 75 Jackson mini #300 (from a recent group rip) with a PSA 8 and it sells for less than a standard PSA 8. So this puzzled me some. It got me thinking of either the demand and/quantity in relation to each other. Again, I thought maybe eBay and the internet made them much more available and revealed the true availability thus equalizing the prices.
In my experience the high end mini will command more than the regular 75. I'm talking 9s and 10s here. Low pop PSA 9 common minis often reach or exceed $1000. The PSA 10 Aaron 660 sold for 8500 and 11000 privately (I can attest to that because I was part of both deals).
Checking the pop reports, the minis are much tougher, with 204,396 regular in slabs to only 80,618 of the minis (and that include slabbed shorts that are no longer in vogue, so to speak). Again so many minis are OC right out of the pack. In PSA 9 grade, there are 40,856 regulars to 14,652 minis.
Of course their are more collectors into the 75 regulars, and despite the love minis get the immense difficulty in building a high end set or even high end HOFer collection keeps many collectors out of the mix. I built my set to 9.04 complete but literally could not find the final upgrades over the course of 5 years, and if I did they'd cost more than I was comfortable paying. I thus broke my set. I would bet the farm it is literally impossible to build a 9.00 set today-- the cards just aren't in the market. They are not coming out of packs. A close examination of the minis from all these angles reveals just how tough they are relative to their 70s cousins, barring of course the 71s. For my money, when we factor in subjective aesthetic taste, rookie card inclusion, and rarity I say 75 mini and 71 are top of the decade. I love the colors and design of 72 but they don't have the RC firepower of the 75 minis, which have great color themselves.
The Conlon auction came and went-- cases were broken-- and not a single watershed mini pop 1 PSA 10 HOFer showed up. That says a lot, and the condition of those cases were as good as it was ever gonna get. Not many sets could survive that kind of unopened infusion and maintain low pops.
I look at what the PSA 9 Bretts are doing now and it's awesome to think what solid PSA 9 HOFers will now be bringing, let alone the 6 existing Brett 10s!
and many cases were hoarded in unopened/ uncirculated condition and are still sitting out there...
the mini cards survive in far better condition, because kids in the 1970s often used rubber bands to separate cards by "teams" (my friends and I did at least), and the 2.5" wide cards took all the wear...
were I lived the mini cards were more common, even in older mixed collections I often sifted through in the early 1980s (NorCal)
even though the '75 mini set was regionally issued it is very common compared to most regional sets, because Topps printed a buttload of cards every year... and even in 1975 there were hoarders seeing $$
Mini's historically did carry a premium and I believe will again and are well along the road there now. Mini's were incredibly strong 5 years ago with common 8s bringing $10 per. Low pop 9s were routinely $500 or more.
Three things came together to take the momentum out of minis for a time:
The economy cratered
There was a controversy over a huge number of high grade minis that did not fill the holder. This took most of the regulars out of the buying game for some time and prices fell significantly. Grading standards have improved significantly since and the collecting base is now broader than ever. Full sized copies now command significant premiums. Average collectors who are unaware of this issue are misled by VCP history that can be all over the map. Look deeper and you will see nice cards sell for more, sometimes much more, than average and this is why.
Charlie Conlon died. For those not familiar, he was a legendary card collector with an eye for the unusual. For the most part, he single handedly cornered the market on minis back in 1975. Over the years, he slowly released supply into the market. Perception was that he had a warehouse full of unopened mini product. Reality was quite different. In the end, he had 26 wax cases, 12 of those sealed as well as two loose cello cases. There was also a loose high grade lot of 20,000 cards. This was all sold through REA in 2009. Prices realized were far below historical norms. Economy and flooded supply played a part.
As a result of the Conlon influx, there was a perception that they sky was going to fall and card populations would be obliterated. That did not happen. As Matty pointed out, almost no rare hall of fame 10s appeared at all. There was some saturation of previous low pop cards, like stan bahnsen 9s for example, but not one new claudell Washington was graded a 9 for example. Boxes were available like candy and for a year or two could be had for as little as 1,000. Prices weren't helped by the fact that the overwhelming majority of pack fresh minis are not gradable. Anyone who has opened mini product has endured this particular joy...
Over the last four years, virtually all those cases were broken, sold and opened. Unopened boxes now routinely sell for 2k or more. For the most part, we are done. There is no more unopened product to speak of. I haven't seen a high grade (gradable) raw set in well over a year, at any price. Mini collectors have figured this out and we are experiencing rapid price rises in any tough mini in a 9. hall of famers even more so. Low pop 8s are pulling down solid prices as well.
To each his own, but as someone who has owned four conlon cases, ripping one, and graded more than 10% of the minis out there, it is my strong opinion that they trajectory is up.
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<< <i>Mygotta,
In my experience the high end mini will command more than the regular 75. I'm talking 9s and 10s here. Low pop PSA 9 common minis often reach or exceed $1000. The PSA 10 Aaron 660 sold for 8500 and 11000 privately (I can attest to that because I was part of both deals).
Checking the pop reports, the minis are much tougher, with 204,396 regular in slabs to only 80,618 of the minis (and that include slabbed shorts that are no longer in vogue, so to speak). Again so many minis are OC right out of the pack. In PSA 9 grade, there are 40,856 regulars to 14,652 minis.
Of course their are more collectors into the 75 regulars, and despite the love minis get the immense difficulty in building a high end set or even high end HOFer collection keeps many collectors out of the mix. I built my set to 9.04 complete but literally could not find the final upgrades over the course of 5 years, and if I did they'd cost more than I was comfortable paying. I thus broke my set. I would bet the farm it is literally impossible to build a 9.00 set today-- the cards just aren't in the market. They are not coming out of packs. A close examination of the minis from all these angles reveals just how tough they are relative to their 70s cousins, barring of course the 71s. For my money, when we factor in subjective aesthetic taste, rookie card inclusion, and rarity I say 75 mini and 71 are top of the decade. I love the colors and design of 72 but they don't have the RC firepower of the 75 minis, which have great color themselves.
The Conlon auction came and went-- cases were broken-- and not a single watershed mini pop 1 PSA 10 HOFer showed up. That says a lot, and the condition of those cases were as good as it was ever gonna get. Not many sets could survive that kind of unopened infusion and maintain low pops.
I look at what the PSA 9 Bretts are doing now and it's awesome to think what solid PSA 9 HOFers will now be bringing, let alone the 6 existing Brett 10s! >>
I have opened only a small handful of 75 mini packs that came from BBCE which were a notoriously off center batch. So, yes, I know what you mean when they come OC right out of the pack. Maybe I lucked out on getting an 8 Jackson.
OK. That all makes sense, but looking at the recent issue of the SMR it says the standard Yount in a PSA 10 sold for an astronomical $25,000, while the mini only around $4,000. And even then, the book values it at $16,000 for the standard and only $3,000 for the mini. Despite these difficulties you mention. Is this more to do with popularity over rarity? This trend happens throughout the set, where the standard sells for much more - at least in terms of the HOF'ers.
I am at about 80% complete with my mini set in PSA 8 or better, with at least 2/3 of those cards, including all of the PSA 10s, consisting of cards I pulled from packs and self-submitted to PSA. I've been working on the set since 2007, on and off, and find it to be one of my favorites from the 1970s.
I have several 75 mini rack packs which are the scarcest of any rack from the 1970s. When REA auctioned off the Conlon collection, they had about 26 mini wax cases, 2+ mini cello cases, and a grand total of 3 mini rack packs.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
For all cards, the SMR is wildly inaccurate and does not reflect actual market prices; it can drive you crazy looking at SMR and trying to reconcile its stated values with market realized prices-- though they do make an effort to include notable sales that deviate from their usual numbers.
As to the Yount, it trades often in the 4k range. It is a pop 9 in mini form and pop 3 in regular; I believe that population data and the number of Registry sets is a big cause of the price difference.
To truly gauge the price of any mini in question, one has to go on VCP and seek out the "full-sized" example and see what it sold for. SMR and the inclusion of short minis depressing VCP averages lead to inaccurate views on pricing.
The salient point here is that quality PSA 9 and 10 minis let alone HOFers are just not easily obtained these days regardless of demand. They are for the most part locked up in collections. And when they do now they are commanding serious coin, as evinced by the two latest Brett 9s.
Hope all that helps contribute to a broader picture of the mini market.
<< <i>I've opened my fair share of mini wax over the past few years--about 6-7 boxes, and can tell you that when it comes to quality control it's either feast or famine. If you are lucky enough to get a box from a good printing run, mini wax is probably the only issue where you will make more money by opening the packs than keeping them sealed. Conversely, if you get an OC run of packs, you may very well go an entire box with no more than a couple of gradeable cards.
I am at about 80% complete with my mini set in PSA 8 or better, with at least 2/3 of those cards, including all of the PSA 10s, consisting of cards I pulled from packs and self-submitted to PSA. I've been working on the set since 2007, on and off, and find it to be one of my favorites from the 1970s.
I have several 75 mini rack packs which are the scarcest of any rack from the 1970s. When REA auctioned off the Conlon collection, they had about 26 mini wax cases, 2+ mini cello cases, and a grand total of 3 mini rack packs. >>
Yeah. I saw this recently, and even questioned whether mini's were put into rack packs
1975 Mini Rack Packs with 2 Nolan Ryans on top
The fact that 2 Ryans happen to be on top made me really suspicious as well. But it is slabbed by GIA, so I assume it to be legit. And seems to have gone for a decent price as well.
<< <i>My gotta,
For all cards, the SMR is wildly inaccurate and does not reflect actual market prices; it can drive you crazy looking at SMR and trying to reconcile its stated values with market realized prices-- though they do make an effort to include notable sales that deviate from their usual numbers.
As to the Yount, it trades often in the 4k range. It is a pop 9 in mini form and pop 3 in regular; I believe that population data and the number of Registry sets is a big cause of the price difference.
To truly gauge the price of any mini in question, one has to go on VCP and seek out the "full-sized" example and see what it sold for. SMR and the inclusion of short minis depressing VCP averages lead to inaccurate views on pricing.
The salient point here is that quality PSA 9 and 10 minis let alone HOFers are just not easily obtained these days regardless of demand. They are for the most part locked up in collections. And when they do now they are commanding serious coin, as evinced by the two latest Brett 9s.
Hope all that helps contribute to a broader picture of the mini market. >>
I'm picking up the bigger picture of what you are saying. The stance of the market does put it into question, but clearly going deeper into the set makes it more evident that the mini's are a rarer breed - as mentioned - in high grade especially!
<< <i>
<< <i>I've opened my fair share of mini wax over the past few years--about 6-7 boxes, and can tell you that when it comes to quality control it's either feast or famine. If you are lucky enough to get a box from a good printing run, mini wax is probably the only issue where you will make more money by opening the packs than keeping them sealed. Conversely, if you get an OC run of packs, you may very well go an entire box with no more than a couple of gradeable cards.
I am at about 80% complete with my mini set in PSA 8 or better, with at least 2/3 of those cards, including all of the PSA 10s, consisting of cards I pulled from packs and self-submitted to PSA. I've been working on the set since 2007, on and off, and find it to be one of my favorites from the 1970s.
I have several 75 mini rack packs which are the scarcest of any rack from the 1970s. When REA auctioned off the Conlon collection, they had about 26 mini wax cases, 2+ mini cello cases, and a grand total of 3 mini rack packs. >>
Yeah. I saw this recently, and even questioned whether mini's were put into rack packs
1975 Mini Rack Packs with 2 Nolan Ryans on top
The fact that 2 Ryans happen to be on top made me really suspicious as well. But it is slabbed by GIA, so I assume it to be legit. And seems to have gone for a decent price as well. >>
Actually, that rack would have gone for much more if the cards were in the correct sections. An authentic mini rack with commons showing would go for that price.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've opened my fair share of mini wax over the past few years--about 6-7 boxes, and can tell you that when it comes to quality control it's either feast or famine. If you are lucky enough to get a box from a good printing run, mini wax is probably the only issue where you will make more money by opening the packs than keeping them sealed. Conversely, if you get an OC run of packs, you may very well go an entire box with no more than a couple of gradeable cards.
I am at about 80% complete with my mini set in PSA 8 or better, with at least 2/3 of those cards, including all of the PSA 10s, consisting of cards I pulled from packs and self-submitted to PSA. I've been working on the set since 2007, on and off, and find it to be one of my favorites from the 1970s.
I have several 75 mini rack packs which are the scarcest of any rack from the 1970s. When REA auctioned off the Conlon collection, they had about 26 mini wax cases, 2+ mini cello cases, and a grand total of 3 mini rack packs. >>
Yeah. I saw this recently, and even questioned whether mini's were put into rack packs
1975 Mini Rack Packs with 2 Nolan Ryans on top
The fact that 2 Ryans happen to be on top made me really suspicious as well. But it is slabbed by GIA, so I assume it to be legit. And seems to have gone for a decent price as well. >>
Actually, that rack would have gone for much more if the cards were in the correct sections. An authentic mini rack with commons showing would go for that price. >>
Are you saying that rack was tampered with?
I would have been extremely interested had it passed the sniff test. I have personally opened and been burned by gai graded resealed racks.
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Meant to reply for a bit, but I was locked down on the latest round of mini auctions and was on radio silence
I am no way near objective on this question but I will add this.
1. MattyC mentions it is now almost impossible to build a mini set in 9. True! Almost all the key cards are locked up and there are so few we know where they all are.
2. Good luck building a mini set in all 8! There are 30-40 very hard to find minis in 8, and now almost 200 of the 8s will not come up for auctions that often. Basically, all you will find are the same 300-400 common 8s for sale. As Jim and Matt mentioned, the Conlon sale has been graded and circulated. The htf 8s are also locked up.
3. The regular 1975 is very strong in 9s and 10s. Here the sheer number of collectors will create very intense competition for 75-100 of the HTF 9 commons and stars, but most of the 9s are relatively easy and the ENTIRE set in 8s can be had for basically grading costs. There is not a single HTF 8 in the regular set. From 1952 through 1979 the Regular set has more graded 8s (over 100,000) than any other graded set...and the pace of grading through the first quarter of 2013 is still faster than any other set. It is the 1990UD of the pre 1980 era.
4. I would strongly suggest reading through the mini forum before collecting this set - this is not a set for the novice collector.
6. The best value buy in the 1970s remains 1975 minis in strong 9 condition. MattyC smartly revealed the population discrepancy 14,600 minis (about 13,000 legit and not short) versus 40,000 plus regular. In fact, the set with the nearest comparable number of 9s is the 1961! Also, there are actually less 1975 mini 8s than any set from 1956 through 1975. The only reason there are less in 1976-79 is that psa9 is the psa8 for those sets.
5. But given that I STRONGLY recommend every1 to keep bidding up the Regular set and avoid the minis...please
<< <i>Yeah. I saw this recently, and even questioned whether mini's were put into rack packs >>
I can vouch for the fact that '75 minis were issued in rack packs.
I was 12 years old at the time, and grew up in San Diego CA. I (with enormous help of course, from my mother
Of course, I sold all the duplicates to fund more card purchases, and finally sold the set in 1984 for I think around $200
Steve
I think Henry's statement here is spot on. The last week or so, I've been kicking around the thought that for about 25-30 of the Mini's, PSA 7 is the new 8. The cards I have in mind are the ones that not only have the typical printing and centering issues, but also are consistently found cut below the Min size requirement. These cards are tough enough just to get holdered let alone get a decent grade based on the condition factors.
<< <i>There was a mini 75 rack on ebay a few weeks ago I tried to pick up, but literally when I was going to hit the buy it now someone beat me to it. He knows who he is. Nice pickup sir! >>
Thanks, Nate.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.