I don't think we have been on the same page with our points. What I was saying is that the Tigers perform poorly in fundamental situations such as scoring a runner from third with less than two outs or a runner from second with no outs. You don't need luck to score a run from those situations. You just need a disciplined approach to move a runner over and then get the bat on the ball to score him. In those two situations, you can score without the aide of a hit or luck. Now if you fail to advance runners in those situations and then have to rely on a base hit to get the run home, then I agree with you that a team is depending more on the luck of the timeliness of its hits. That is exactly how the Tigers function. Today's game is a perfect example of this. Three times in the first 5 innings the Tigers had a runner on third with less than two outs or a runner on second with no outs. Once they scored on what could have been a Cabrera double play and the other two times they had to rely on a two out hit to score because the batters before failed to advance the runner.
<< <i>I don't think we have been on the same page with our points. What I was saying is that the Tigers perform poorly in fundamental situations such as scoring a runner from third with less than two outs or a runner from second with no outs. You don't need luck to score a run from those situations. You just need a disciplined approach to move a runner over and then get the bat on the ball to score him. In those two situations, you can score without the aide of a hit or luck. Now if you fail to advance runners in those situations and then have to rely on a base hit to get the run home, then I agree with you that a team is depending more on the luck of the timeliness of its hits. That is exactly how the Tigers function. Today's game is a perfect example of this. Three times in the first 5 innings the Tigers had a runner on third with less than two outs or a runner on second with no outs. Once they scored on what could have been a Cabrera double play and the other two times they had to rely on a two out hit to score because the batters before failed to advance the runner. >>
I agree 100% with RW here. You might criticize Ron Washington in Texas for not bowing to the statistical gods of baseball...I tend to fall agree with his aversion to basing decisions on arcane numbers - you can overanalyze the game. What I like about the Rangers is that they are aggressive and can perform the fundamentals well. The Tigers have NOT be a fundamentally sound team - haven't been since the Trammell/Whitaker teams. In regards to getting the runner in from third. This is a statistical fact. Two professors at Yale university looked into this. In any ONE at bat it really doesn't matter - Matthew is right - it is basically chance. The difference between a .250 and .300 hitting is near zero. However, over the course of a season, RW is right. Teams that are well schooled get the benefits LONG TERM. This is my gripe against Leyland. His teams never execute consistently (from Bonds/Bonilla to Cabrera/Fielder).
I'm not a Leyland fan; heck, I'm not an AL fan for that matter... but for someone who's supposedly so untalented, he's sure had longevity. Someone must like him because he's still getting paid. A manager can only set up a game plan; he can't go out there and play for the guys who take turns screwing up and costing them games. But, I guess it's easier to dump on one guy than 3 or 4. Or 6.
With Mike Ilitch as owner, the Detroit organization has had a history of overpaying and keeping guys around too long because they are nice guys. Leyland, Dombrowski and several players mentioned above all fall into this category. That's how you end up with a team with a $150 million dollar payroll that annually struggles to win the worst division in the A.L.
By the way, was somebody here saying they really like Villareal? Guess that is going to happen when people are so desperate to come up with a player to praise Dombrowski about.
<< <i>I'm not a Leyland fan; heck, I'm not an AL fan for that matter... but for someone who's supposedly so untalented, he's sure had longevity. Someone must like him because he's still getting paid. A manager can only set up a game plan; he can't go out there and play for the guys who take turns screwing up and costing them games. But, I guess it's easier to dump on one guy than 3 or 4. Or 6. >>
Thanks Telephoto. I am the first to admit that I am an emotional Tigers fan...since 1975 and die-hard since 1977 (Year of the bird). My comment regarding Leyland was very specific. I have never said he was a bad manager, or that he was a bad person. I am 100% convinced he may be the single most over-rated game manager I have ever seen. I also watch other teams so it is not like I am restricted to a narrow sample. From what I hear, he is very good in the clubhouse and manages impressions well with top-brass. But within the 9 innings he has managed 3 talented clubs in his career and almost always gets the least out of his talent.
Thanks for the link...this may go down as one of history's greatest teams! I have been a Tiger fan since 1975 and fell in love with the team during the year of the Bird in 1976. Leyland will cost this team games, but I am starting to believe it doesn't matter in the end with that starting pitching and Miggy and Biggy in the middle of the line-up. In the end, I hope for a WS ring for Ilitch who has done so much for the god-forsaken city destroyed by 40 years of government corruption of its black democratic leadership.
I grew up downriver near Detroit and seen the corruption from Coleman Young on down the line to the gangster mayor Kilpatrick...it is a tragic story. You should see the glitzy palace that the education department has while most kids don't graduate HS and cant read. But sorry for injecting politics. Yah DD has made some incredible trades that have become historic steals from Miggy on down.
I should hate the Cardinals after stealing the 2006 series, but I just gotta respect the franchise and the city. Great baseball fans and top notch teams.
I never listen to a word the national media says about the Tigers. All they look at are the names and stats and clearly don't watch this team on a daily basis. The only reasons the Tigers have even made the playoffs under Dombrowski's tenure are Mike Ilitch's willingness to let Dombrowski spend his way out of his shortcomings and being fortunate enough to be in a division where on a yearly basis 2 to 3 of the other teams aren't even trying to compete. Yes, Dombrowksi has made a few good trades, but without those other 2 factors, they don't make the playoffs at all. And those few good trades don't excuse his poor drafting and farm system.
The Tigers are an entertaining team to watch if you are more a fan of individual performances (Cabrera, Verlander, and this year Scherzer) rather than good, team baseball. This team is glaringly home-run dependent, a slow team on the bases and in the field, and has perhaps the worst bullpen in the majors. It lacks just about everything needed to win the close games. And the fact that it gets so little help from its farm system when needed is a clear indictment on Dombrowski's farm system and his philosophy to draft almost exclusively pitching in the early rounds of the drafts.
And I just can't take the yearly revolving door of garbage relief pitchers any longer. Just going back about 5 years, the list is sickening: Bruce Rondon, Brian Villareal, Daniel Schlereth, Brad Thomas, Chance Ruffin, Ryan Perry, David Purcey, Fu-Te Ni, Casey Fien, Alfredo Figaro, Freddy Dolsi, Bobby Seay, Francis Beltran, Frankie De La Cruz, Yorman Bazardo, Casey Fossum, Luke French, Denny Bautista, Jordan Tata, Wil Ledezma, Aquilino Lopez, Zach Miner, Macay McBride, Juan Rincon, Tim Byrdak, Chris Spurling, Roman Colon, Jose Capellan…….
Trash, trash, and more trash.....
It would not surprise me one bit to see the Tigers finish in 3rd place behind KC and Cleveland - the only other 2 teams in the division trying to win this year. Maybe THAT would finally mean the end for DD and Leyland.
Leyland sucks and I will type this 1 millions times until they get rid of him "he is the single most over-rated game manager I have ever seen" he has no core principle, he plays the odds and then goes by hunch with no discernable pattern and IMO he squeezes every single loss he can during the course of a season. He almost requires two automatic outs in his line-up and over-uses his relievers and under-uses his starting position players. I have seen him manage since his Pirate years (totally getting out-classed by Bobby Cox). He had one lucky year in Florida and has continually mis-used players on the Tigers. Basically, Don Kelly has had near starter level at bats and what is Ramon Santiago doing starting today with his .150 average? What part of "situational lefty" does he not understand regarding Coke...on and on.
BTW RWax, that is one impressive list of garbage relievers! haha, all the memories of them getting shellacked.
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<< <i>I don't think we have been on the same page with our points. What I was saying is that the Tigers perform poorly in fundamental situations such as scoring a runner from third with less than two outs or a runner from second with no outs. You don't need luck to score a run from those situations. You just need a disciplined approach to move a runner over and then get the bat on the ball to score him. In those two situations, you can score without the aide of a hit or luck. Now if you fail to advance runners in those situations and then have to rely on a base hit to get the run home, then I agree with you that a team is depending more on the luck of the timeliness of its hits. That is exactly how the Tigers function. Today's game is a perfect example of this. Three times in the first 5 innings the Tigers had a runner on third with less than two outs or a runner on second with no outs. Once they scored on what could have been a Cabrera double play and the other two times they had to rely on a two out hit to score because the batters before failed to advance the runner. >>
I agree 100% with RW here. You might criticize Ron Washington in Texas for not bowing to the statistical gods of baseball...I tend to fall agree with his aversion to basing decisions on arcane numbers - you can overanalyze the game. What I like about the Rangers is that they are aggressive and can perform the fundamentals well. The Tigers have NOT be a fundamentally sound team - haven't been since the Trammell/Whitaker teams.
In regards to getting the runner in from third. This is a statistical fact. Two professors at Yale university looked into this. In any ONE at bat it really doesn't matter - Matthew is right - it is basically chance. The difference between a .250 and .300 hitting is near zero. However, over the course of a season, RW is right. Teams that are well schooled get the benefits LONG TERM. This is my gripe against Leyland. His teams never execute consistently (from Bonds/Bonilla to Cabrera/Fielder).
Good to see people outside of Detroit have a clearer perspective on things.
A manager can only set up a game plan; he can't go out there and play for the guys who take turns screwing up and costing them games. But, I guess it's easier to dump on one guy than 3 or 4. Or 6.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
By the way, was somebody here saying they really like Villareal? Guess that is going to happen when people are so desperate to come up with a player to praise Dombrowski about.
<< <i>I'm not a Leyland fan; heck, I'm not an AL fan for that matter... but for someone who's supposedly so untalented, he's sure had longevity. Someone must like him because he's still getting paid.
A manager can only set up a game plan; he can't go out there and play for the guys who take turns screwing up and costing them games. But, I guess it's easier to dump on one guy than 3 or 4. Or 6.
Thanks Telephoto. I am the first to admit that I am an emotional Tigers fan...since 1975 and die-hard since 1977 (Year of the bird). My comment regarding Leyland was very specific. I have never said he was a bad manager, or that he was a bad person. I am 100% convinced he may be the single most over-rated game manager I have ever seen. I also watch other teams so it is not like I am restricted to a narrow sample. From what I hear, he is very good in the clubhouse and manages impressions well with top-brass. But within the 9 innings he has managed 3 talented clubs in his career and almost always gets the least out of his talent.
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Leyland will cost this team games, but I am starting to believe it doesn't matter in the end with that starting pitching and Miggy and Biggy in the middle of the line-up.
In the end, I hope for a WS ring for Ilitch who has done so much for the god-forsaken city destroyed by 40 years of government corruption of its black democratic leadership.
Yah DD has made some incredible trades that have become historic steals
Good thing for the Pirates they don't have to meet them now the way they're playing.
DaveB in St.Louis
The Tigers are an entertaining team to watch if you are more a fan of individual performances (Cabrera, Verlander, and this year Scherzer) rather than good, team baseball. This team is glaringly home-run dependent, a slow team on the bases and in the field, and has perhaps the worst bullpen in the majors. It lacks just about everything needed to win the close games. And the fact that it gets so little help from its farm system when needed is a clear indictment on Dombrowski's farm system and his philosophy to draft almost exclusively pitching in the early rounds of the drafts.
And I just can't take the yearly revolving door of garbage relief pitchers any longer. Just going back about 5 years, the list is sickening: Bruce Rondon, Brian Villareal, Daniel Schlereth, Brad Thomas, Chance Ruffin, Ryan Perry, David Purcey, Fu-Te Ni, Casey Fien, Alfredo Figaro, Freddy Dolsi, Bobby Seay, Francis Beltran, Frankie De La Cruz, Yorman Bazardo, Casey Fossum, Luke French, Denny Bautista, Jordan Tata, Wil Ledezma, Aquilino Lopez, Zach Miner, Macay McBride, Juan Rincon, Tim Byrdak, Chris Spurling, Roman Colon, Jose Capellan…….
Trash, trash, and more trash.....
It would not surprise me one bit to see the Tigers finish in 3rd place behind KC and Cleveland - the only other 2 teams in the division trying to win this year. Maybe THAT would finally mean the end for DD and Leyland.
BTW RWax, that is one impressive list of garbage relievers! haha, all the memories of them getting shellacked.