Hypothetical Related To Other Sheet Thread - Also: Unopened Pack Cards

MattyC

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to raise a fun hypothetical and didn't want it to get poofed, hence this new thread...

I thought that was actually a great discussion. I think Cleveland absolutely nailed it and boiled the issue down to a simple collector choice-- does one feel a card is original and authentic once the printing process is complete (the stock, ink, colors, image) or when the card and cutting are both complete? In other words: factory printed or factory printed and cut?

For me, I'd prefer a card from a pack, and I put my trust in PSA to detect as best they can-- but to me the sheet is also the card in its first original form, and nothing to sneeze at. If PSA scrutinizes a card and slabs it, I'm okay. That's what we pay them for.

I'd like to raise a fun hypothetical:

What if a card was factory cut but was left in a stack at the factory and never made it's way into packs? How would you feel about this card? It never made the same journey as others through packs and stores? Yet it was factory printed and cut.

Also-- what about unopened product? I mean, so many of us talked about a card's journey through kids' hands and making it through that journey in good condition... But a card that sat in a pack all these years in a storage basement had an advantage, did it not? And now it can be graded along with others that were opened and handled and loved by kids for decades.

When we talk about intent, weren't the packs intended to be opened? Who could really argue otherwise about what was intended back in the 50s or 70s, before the investment boom. Were people collecting unopened in 1952? I'd think we'd see more product today. So what about a card graded from a pack just opened today? That card has an advantage over the one opened in 1952.

Anyways just a crazy thought that popped into my head reading the other thread, and curious of fellow collector responses. I think I'd have zero problem whatsoever with the hypothetical card cut and left at the factory warehouse-- even though it never made it into a pack.

grote15

For me, the distinction is when the card was cut and by using what equipment method. In my mind, that is the only issue--was the card cut by Topps in the year of issue and with vintage equipment of the day when quality control was a mere afterthought or was the card cut years later using modern day technology and equipment with an obvious eye on quality control to maximize the grade. Everything else is secondary with regard to how yhe cards were stored or preserved over time.

BostonAmericans

I agree with you on factory cut but left in a stack on a shelf for years. The intent was for those pieces of cardboard to be sold/collected as individual cards. The same applies to cards that have been sitting in packs, waiting to be opened. While it is true the intent was for the pack to be opened, when that opening takes place is a completely arbitrary happening that is more up to fate than anything (pack collectors aside). Besides, sitting in packs adds in risks not found by cards sitting in shoe boxes in attics or on a shelf and never packed - wax and gum stains. I picked up a Valenzuela rookie from the last group rip that was the gum card. I know I can remove the residue somewhat easily, but I also had some OPC hockey cards that had gum damage beyond repair.

My position on this discussion is what was the intent of the card after printing? If it was meant to be sold as a pack card, then it is a pack card. If it was meant to be sold as part of a sheet, then it is a sheet and any cutting following it leaving the Topps factory just makes it (for lack of a better word/phrase) a 'cut out'. It may be nice, it may look like a 10, and it may be an authentic card (stock, ink, etc.). But it getting to 'individual card' condition varied from the intent of the factory, hence making it a nice collectible, but not one that should be considered for grading in the same category as partner to a pack card.

As much as I would not have a problem with adding a category of 'authentic but sheet cut' to the grading process, the fact that there is so much counterfit/trimmed/sheet cuts trying to be passed off as pack cards, thus being rejected as not be true authentics (i.e. unaltered), PSA almost HAS to have the rule regarding not grading them. There would be too much conflict over what someone claims to be authentic (and in some cases would be true) and what PSA judges to be altered.

The category that we submit/buy/trade cards in is trading cards. The unwritten assumption is that these cards come from the 'traditional' route - individual cards sold in wax/rack/cello packs or cut out from box bottoms or redemption sheets - sheets meaning the cards were intended to be cut because they were sold that way. Cards that came from a sheet that was originally sold as a sheet do not qualify as they were intended to remain a sheet, not cut up.

MattyC

Just playing devil's advocate to probe the issue:

If the intent was for the card to be distributed in packs and it never made it into a pack, isn't that a breach of the compete intent chain of "plates-to sheet-to cut-to packs-to kids' hands?" That seems to be the complete, let's call it "purist," chain.

I guess it's an entirely personal choice, as to where along that chain each collector can stop and be okay.

I would be AOK with that hypothetical card that never made it into a pack, but I have to admit it still did not make it into a pack and thus has the cut going for it, but is definitely akin to sheet cut in the sense it never made the "full journey."

In the same way, while I concede cards in packs have their potential dangers, the card just opened today from a box that sat in storage all these years definitely has an advantage over the one opened and loved and handled by a kid decades ago. So it's a slippery slope. Do we add "pack opened date" to the flip?

Also, it's worth noting that an original sheet also can meet damage over the course of years-- surface scratches and bending are real threats to a sheet.

grote15

Cards in vending boxes and cut cases never made it into a pack. All modes of distribution were not created equal either--racks typically yield much nicer cards than cellos for instance.

Again, for me it all goes back to one simple question: when was the card cut and was it cut using production methods of the era with equipment from that era. Those factors are the primary reason why a PSA 9 Claudell Washington 75 mini commands a 100x premium over an equally graded Ed Kranepool, for instance.

BostonAmericans

IMO it's how the card left the factory, whether in a pack in 1978 or from a 'found treasue' that was sitting in a back storage room all those years ago. The card was cut by Topps in the factory - the intent of the card was always to be sold as an individual card. Your arguments about storage and and advantages are all very valid. However, I believe the general consensus (and PSA's modus operandi when it comes to this) is that if the card was cut by Topps in the year of manufacture, it was intended to be an individual trading card. If the fates dictate it was placed on a shelf for 30 years before found or it makes its way into a pack and busted a month later or into a pack and then stored for 30 years, then so be it for that card. Anything beyond that is getting into hair splitting territory.

But let's take your hypothetical a step further. Let's say Topps finds a cache of 1975 baseball uncut sheets that were intended to be cut up and placed into packs but for whatever reason never did and ended up in this back room, perfectly preserved. They find them in 2013. Since the intent was to cut them, does Topps cut them and put out a special 'throwback promotion'? They could, but IMO they would have to somehow alter the cards so they can be identified as the '2013 Backroom Swamp Find'. Why? Because they would be using today's techniques for cutting and QC, thus making them superior to original 1975 cards and more valuable, which while not being a bad thing, would give the 2013 cards an advantage over the originals. Besides, if they did somehow run them back through a printer to add a mark signifying the 2013 find, the cards automatically stop being original 1975 cards and become 2013 Backroom Swamp Find cards.

From what I have seen from yesterday's and today's threads, a card becomes a card if it is cut at the factory in the year of manufacture to be sold as a card - no matter if it gets stored or packed and then ripped either that year or 30 years from then. If it is sold as a sheet and then cut by anyone other than the factory, then it is an 'altered' card and not the same as the individual pack card.

itzagoner

<< <i>Were people collecting unopened in 1952? >>



was Nostradamus still available at the time?

MattyC

I agree, if we say "individual card," as opposed to "individual pack card." Not playing semantics, only because the latter implies it should have been in a pack and this hypothetical card was not, but we're still okay with it.

It seems most of us then (including PSA) park our cars in the "factory printed and factory cut" space. I am curious if others would insist upon "factory distributed, i.e., made it into packs," or if there are even more purist collectors out there who collect lower grade cards because they desire cards that were also opened back in the day-- as was no doubt intended/assumed by the card maker.

To the point raised in the initial post of the other thread and as others echoed, it's a personal choice. I don't think because PSA has one set of criteria, they have to become anyone else's.

That said, given PSA's stated criteria and that they train and pay experts what to look at and for, I think if one likes pristine looking examples that may be sheet cut, just grab a beautiful BGS and be happy. I love the Jordan Star cards and PSA doesn't grade them. So I and many other collectors buy BGS ones and are happy. Not exact but it's analogous.

MattyC

<< <i>

<< <i>Were people collecting unopened in 1952? >>



was Nostradamus still available at the time? >>



I really do wonder. I know I wish my dad and grandfathers did!

Stadium1978

Vending Box cards were never in packs.

No gum stains. No wax stains. No pack corner damage.

The hypothetical "cards left on the shelf" isn't that much different. Based on that, I think we can get rid of all of the talk about cards being in packs and pulled by kids etc...

The only argument comes down to the cutting.

Personally, I think that as long as the right amount of cardboard is there, it's fine. HOWEVER, I can see the other point of view and I certainly have no problem with PSA's stance on the subject.

MattyC

"Personally, I think that as long as the right amount of cardboard is there, it's fine."

Nicely said.

cpamike

<< <i>

<< <i>Were people collecting unopened in 1952? >>



was Nostradamus still available at the time? >>



His quatrain 10, 20 accurately predicts the end of the unopened market. Only I can't tell you the year.

itzagoner

hmmmph. i knew somebody around here is well connected.