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What pitcher had the best pure stuff in mlb history?

zendudezendude Posts: 208 ✭✭
in Sports Talk

In my opinion it's Pedro Martinez. At his peak, he was just unreal.

Comments

  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭
    Ugh, that guy. Easy to dislike because he wasn't on my team, but yeah, he was compiling dead-ball era stats in the juiced era. I still remember being at an M's game watching him buckle Edgar's legs with a naaaaassty curve
  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mariano Rivera, at his best, was wicked. You knew what was coming, but it didn't matter.

    Dave
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  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭
    What do we mean by "stuff"? Are you saying who was the best pitcher or just who had the best pitch?
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  • jdip9jdip9 Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭
    Stuff (for me) is some combination of the following in order of importance:

    A. ability to put the ball exactly where he wants to
    B. wicked movement on at least one pitch
    C. high velocity fastball
    D. due to the above, make hitters look silly

    With that in mind, I agree with the OP and say Pedro. His changeup was unhittable, could reach 96/97 during his prime, and routinely racked up 10+ Ks per game.

    Of course, being in my mid-30s, I've never seen guys that pitched in 70's or earlier. Koufax must have had some stuff to rack up the career numbers that he did.
  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gaylord Perry.
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  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the answer to this question will be based on the age of the person who is asked. Being 43, I never actually got to see guys like Walter Johnson,Satchel Paige, etc...pitch. So for me...the pitcher with the best stuff I have ever seen is Greg Maddux. If I had to give runner ups I would say a tie between Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens.
  • alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    forget his name but sports illustrated did an article on him......last name fitch I believe.....or something like that.......also didn't some kid who played for Baltimore throw abizzilian miles an hour back in the 50's and then hurt his arm.....

    al.
  • calaban7calaban7 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭


    << <i>.......also didn't some kid who played for Baltimore throw abizzilian miles an hour back in the 50's and then hurt his arm.....

    al. >>



    Steve Dalkowski --- hardly best stuff , but an amazing read non the less . The article by Hardball Times is the best on him .----- Sonny
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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would still separate Pitchers of the modern era from earlier times- not sure what an appropriate break would be- probably around 1960-

    I can think of several pre 1960 and post 1960 candidiates and I am not able to choose just one.

    One factor is just the mere presence of the pitcher and their demeanor, delivery and reputation for instilling a certain fear - and I don't mean fear from something that would be considered unsportsmanlike

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  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Stuff (for me) is some combination of the following in order of importance:

    A. ability to put the ball exactly where he wants to
    B. wicked movement on at least one pitch
    C. high velocity fastball
    D. due to the above, make hitters look silly

    . >>



    I guess my answer differs based on which variable we're talking about. If its A. from above, then I'd go with Maddux. No one in his era had the placement he did.. I'm not sure there was even a close 2nd place.

    For B., I'd go with Mariano Rivera.

    For C., there are lots of candidates.

    For overall, I'd say Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux, but for different reasons. Both had an equal ability to make a hitter look silly.
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  • vladguerrerovladguerrero Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭
    Pedro at his peak was pretty amazing.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nolan Ryan
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  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Would agree with Pedro at his peak. For a single season, in my lifetime, Doc Gooden in 1985. His fastball and that 12-6 curveball was unreal.


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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In order to illustrate my point, how could a batter not be intimidated by the delivery of Juan Marichal?

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  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    I voted for Pedro.
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Dwight Gooden, in the 84 to 86 timeframe, was the best I've ever seen (I've only been alive since 1970)
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  • PowderedH2OPowderedH2O Posts: 2,443 ✭✭
    All time (without having seen him pitch) I would go with Walter Johnson just based upon numbers. Using the eyeball test, I would say that Steve Carlton had the best stuff I've ever seen. His slider made hitters look absolutely foolish.
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  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
    And Sandy Koufax? Man, that guy was amazing! Imagine someone going 97-27 with an ERA under 2.00 for the prior four years and deciding to retire at the age of 30?
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  • alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    I am not a big Yankees fan but didn't Ron Guidry have a season that was one of the best ever, and he had awesome stuff.....
  • mommam17mommam17 Posts: 971 ✭✭✭
    I would go with Koufax first and Juan Marichal next.
  • ExodusExodus Posts: 348 ✭✭✭
    Sandy Koufax and Pedro Martinez.

  • MattyCMattyC Posts: 1,335 ✭✭
    Gooden's curve and fastball were about as sick as it gets in 1985.
  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    One writer's argument that Pedro Martinez had the greatest season of any pitcher in history:

    link to article
  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I voted for Pedro. >>



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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Have to mention Bob Feller!
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  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    Did he make all of your wildest dreams come true?

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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pre 1960

    Walter Johnson
    Bob Feller


    Post 1960

    Juan Marichal
    Nolan Ryan
    Sandy Kofax
    Bob Gibson
    Sam McDowell

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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bert Blyleven had some good stuff too!
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  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    So did Dock Ellis. image
  • RoarIn84RoarIn84 Posts: 859 ✭✭
    Kerry Wood..... for one game. Probably one of the greatest games ever pitched!! But for real, in my time, I can't not go with Greg Maddux. He made hitters look just plain stupid. Nowadays, Verlander has the best overall arsenal. Sure I'm a biased Detroiter, but every time he goes out, he goes at least 7 innings and has no-hit stuff.
  • LodiBrewFanLodiBrewFan Posts: 564 ✭
    Sid finch! This guy was hitting a buck fifty on the juggs gun. Never made an appearance in the majors, blew his arm out before making it. Sports illustrated diva great article on him. No one could come any where near his velocity!
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  • alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Sid finch! This guy was hitting a buck fifty on the juggs gun. Never made an appearance in the majors, blew his arm out before making it. Sports illustrated diva great article on him. No one could come any where near his velocity! >>



    that's the name I couldn't remember.......
  • halosfanhalosfan Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭✭
    Mike Boddicker had an amazing assortment of Junk ....
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  • corncobbcorncobb Posts: 516 ✭
    Im going with Wilber Wood
  • JJacksJJacks Posts: 759 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>.......also didn't some kid who played for Baltimore throw abizzilian miles an hour back in the 50's and then hurt his arm.....

    al. >>



    Steve Dalkowski --- hardly best stuff , but an amazing read non the less . The article by Hardball Times is the best on him .----- Sonny >>



    Hey, thanks for posting about this guy - I have followed baseball somewhat closely (at least I thought!) for 20+ years and have never heard of him that I can remember. I just read up about him on Wiki - pretty amazing he had something like 262Ks AND 262 walks in 170 Inn in a minor league year! He had a game with 24 Ks and 18 walks!

    JJacks
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  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭
    No mention of Randy Johnson. Hmm.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Not even a close call since I've been following the game Koufax. He was mostly unhittable.
  • GB5HOFGB5HOF Posts: 590 ✭
    I'll go with Doc Gooden circa 1984-1986. Man that was fun to watch.
  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>.......also didn't some kid who played for Baltimore throw abizzilian miles an hour back in the 50's and then hurt his arm.....

    al. >>



    Steve Dalkowski --- hardly best stuff , but an amazing read non the less . The article by Hardball Times is the best on him .----- Sonny >>



    Hey, thanks for posting about this guy - I have followed baseball somewhat closely (at least I thought!) for 20+ years and have never heard of him that I can remember. I just read up about him on Wiki - pretty amazing he had something like 262Ks AND 262 walks in 170 Inn in a minor league year! He had a game with 24 Ks and 18 walks!

    JJacks >>


    Dalkowski was the basis for the Nuke LaLouche character in Bull Durham.

    There's a lot of great info on him in the book High Heat.
  • MintMoondogMintMoondog Posts: 969 ✭


    << <i>In my opinion it's Pedro Martinez. At his peak, he was just unreal. >>



    +1 my all-time favorite
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  • thenibblerthenibbler Posts: 147 ✭✭
    BIG TEX Nolan Ryan has to be at the top with 7 no-hitters and 12 one hitters. Maybe not your greatest pitcher of all time , but no one
    comes close to those numbers.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Walter Johnson had 113 career shut outs-

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  • TheTalkingWalnutTheTalkingWalnut Posts: 444
    I'll waste my vote on Blyleven. A guy just doesn't pitch that many shutouts with crap. Heck, a guy doesn't throw that many complete games with crap. Heck times two, a guy hardly even throws that many innings or gets that many Ks any more.
  • fiveninerfiveniner Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭
    Sandy Koufax hands down.
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  • soundgardsoundgard Posts: 650 ✭
    Bert Blyleven
  • CocoaBeachDodgersCocoaBeachDodgers Posts: 750 ✭✭✭
    There have been so many great pitchers with pure junk in MLB history.
    Maddux would just plain out think hitters & use his pin-point accuracy.
    Blyleven had a huge breaking curveball.
    Nobody threw harder consistently than Nolan Ryan.
    Pedro was very tuff with his fastball & breaking pitch combination.
    Randy Johnson was brutal to lefthanders.
    The list goes on & on....
    But for those of you that remember watching Koufax from about 1962 to 1966, players often could just not get the bat on the ball.
    That hard breaking curveball, along with a pin point accurate fastball, he was just unhittable. For you younger guys, if you ever get a chance to watch those World Series videos from the 60's, you would really appreciate them. 1963 and 1965!

    Edited to add: I thought Finch was an April Fools joke SI or ESPN played?
  • Skyhawks1bSkyhawks1b Posts: 376


    << <i>Stuff (for me) is some combination of the following in order of importance:

    A. ability to put the ball exactly where he wants to
    B. wicked movement on at least one pitch
    C. high velocity fastball
    D. due to the above, make hitters look silly

    With that in mind, I agree with the OP and say Pedro. His changeup was unhittable, could reach 96/97 during his prime, and routinely racked up 10+ Ks per game.

    Of course, being in my mid-30s, I've never seen guys that pitched in 70's or earlier. Koufax must have had some stuff to rack up the career numbers that he did. >>



    Take out the high velocity fastball and just use A B & D....the answer is Greg Maddux. Also the act that for the most part of his career his fastball was 87-90....pits him toward the top IMO. He could move his fastball as much as his changeup
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  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭✭
    Not my answer....but Tom Seaver doesn't get much love historically. He had great stuff.

    My 4 would be....Walter Johnson, Ryan, Koufax and Pedro Martinez
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