coin rolls, history, etc.

steveben

i would like the knowledgeable numismatists here, who are willing, to share what they know about the history of rolls for coins. was the mint or a bank the first to use them? when? what coins were in what rolls, amounts, etc. also, let's see some photos of your oldest authentic rolls. does anyone have any gold coin rolls?

cladking

We've discussed this a few times in the past and never reached much of a conclusion.

I believe the oldest (probably) original roll that anyone could account for was an '09-S VDB
though some had heard of older ones.

It wouldn't be surprising if paper tubes to hold coins have been used and abandoned a few
times.

Let's hope the new thread brings out something new. I'm not very hopeful though since even
records of how and where the coins circulated tend not to exist.

lcoopie

a search for
coin rolls history
interesting enough gave me this page as number three

and

link

lordmarcovan

Wow. PCGS is certifying rolls, now?

That's interesting. A little weird, but fascinating, too. And kind of a nice way to preserve an intact roll, I suppose.

freechance

<< <i>Wow. PCGS is certifying rolls, now?

That's interesting. A little weird, but fascinating, too. And kind of a nice way to preserve an intact roll, I suppose. >>



I believe they started with the 2008 First strike eagle rolls. sonically sealed tubes--don't let them fool you they still tone

darktone

I consider my 1902 Indian cent roll original. They might not be in a paper roll from 1902. They are all from the same few dies, all have the same color. I don't really know if a roll this old could be found in original paper??

OKbustchaser

Not trying to be a donkey, here, but what is the reasoning behind collecting rolls or bags of coins which can never be opened without losing the premium originally paid for the roll or bag?

I just can't fathom the idea of never being able to look at the coins I purchased. Each is an individual. Paper wrappers, OTOH, pretty much all look the same.

halfhunter

HERE is some pretty interesting, though basic, info on BU rolls from Wayne Herndon.

BTW . . . I just love seeking out and collecting original shotgun rolls ! ! !

HH

GrumpyEd

Wasn't a lot of the gold from the Central America "ship of gold" shipwreck still piled up in stacks because they were in rolls and the rolls decayed but the coins were still arranged in stacks?

rmpsrpms

Coins have been "rolled" for a long time, maybe hundreds of years. It's a convenient way to store, transport, and verify count for high value coins. Far as I can tell, rolling was a limited practice until the early 'teens. Demand for rolls brought out the inventors, who developed the auto coin wrapping systems still used today. The most famous and well-used of these is the Batdorf mechanism of 1915, which was used to create the type of roll that is started with flat paper and crimped on both ends by the machine. These are distinguished from the pre-rolled types of later years by the typically V-shaped cut on the paper, versus the spiral shape of the pre-rolled machines.

So, if what you mean by "roll" is simply a paper tube with coins in it, wrapped by a bank employee by hand, then it's possible to date these back quite far for higher denominations. However, for minor coins, I've never seen a reference to rolls being used for distribution until the late 'teens. The 1909 Cents were distributed to the banks in small bags (I'd love to have one!) rather than rolls. I've never heard of a documented example of an "original roll" of 1909 Cents. If they did exist, they would have been hand-wrapped by a teller, so would not fit into the "OBW" definition.

mrpaseo

<< <i>Wasn't a lot of the gold from the Central America "ship of gold" shipwreck still piled up in stacks because they were in rolls and the rolls decayed but the coins were still arranged in stacks? >>





Drool

mrpaseo

Imagine...

rmpsrpms

Looks to me like they were in stacks inside boxes (which mostly disintegrated), not rolled.

steveben

what prompted this topic was this really incomplete, and perhaps inaccurate, wikipedia article on the subject:

Coin Wrappers

i was imagining what it would be like to have a roll of 50 eagles!!

stealer

<< <i>

<< <i>Wasn't a lot of the gold from the Central America "ship of gold" shipwreck still piled up in stacks because they were in rolls and the rolls decayed but the coins were still arranged in stacks? >>





Drool >>


That really prooflike reverse peeking out on the far left half encased in gunk is drool-worthy...and NCS worthy as well.

johnny9434

<< <i>

<< <i>Wasn't a lot of the gold from the Central America "ship of gold" shipwreck still piled up in stacks because they were in rolls and the rolls decayed but the coins were still arranged in stacks? >>





Drool >>

life is good

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Not trying to be a donkey, here, but what is the reasoning behind collecting rolls or bags of coins which can never be opened without losing the premium originally paid for the roll or bag?

I just can't fathom the idea of never being able to look at the coins I purchased. Each is an individual. Paper wrappers, OTOH, pretty much all look the same. >>

Don't feel bad, OKBC. I never entirely "got" it, either.

rmpsrpms

<< <i>

<< <i>Not trying to be a donkey, here, but what is the reasoning behind collecting rolls or bags of coins which can never be opened without losing the premium originally paid for the roll or bag?

I just can't fathom the idea of never being able to look at the coins I purchased. Each is an individual. Paper wrappers, OTOH, pretty much all look the same. >>

Don't feel bad, OKBC. I never entirely "got" it, either. >>



Published roll values are for average quality tubed rolls that have been cherrypicked and searched for gem quality coins and varieties. The allure of OBW rolls is that they are unsearched, and thus may contain gem quality coins or interesting varieties. This makes the OBW rolls worth more than tubed rolls as long as the OBW roll is never opened. It can thus trade as a commodity between gamblers who place a value on what they might find in the roll were it to be opened.

OKbustchaser

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Not trying to be a donkey, here, but what is the reasoning behind collecting rolls or bags of coins which can never be opened without losing the premium originally paid for the roll or bag?

I just can't fathom the idea of never being able to look at the coins I purchased. Each is an individual. Paper wrappers, OTOH, pretty much all look the same. >>

Don't feel bad, OKBC. I never entirely "got" it, either. >>



Published roll values are for average quality tubed rolls that have been cherrypicked and searched for gem quality coins and varieties. The allure of OBW rolls is that they are unsearched, and thus may contain gem quality coins or interesting varieties. This makes the OBW rolls worth more than tubed rolls as long as the OBW roll is never opened. It can thus trade as a commodity between gamblers who place a value on what they might find in the roll were it to be opened. >>



I understand why there is a premium for original bags or unsearched rolls. I just don't understand how coin collectors can leave them unopened never to know whether they own a rarity or not.


I guess it comes down to a case of "Is the cat dead or alive? Until one opens the box it's both."

rmpsrpms

<< <i>I understand why there is a premium for original bags or unsearched rolls. I just don't understand how coin collectors can leave them unopened never to know whether they own a rarity or not. >>



Once you have a few extra rolls about, it starts to make sense. I have a few hundred OBW Cent rolls that I will probably never open. Many were bought singly, and they could contain anything, but often they were purchased in groups and I have opened a couple from each group so am pretty sure the rest are the same. Indeed I have rolls set aside that I know to be full of gem coins, and rolls that are full of fairly rare RPMs and Doubled Dies, and even those I may never open. They are a store of value, and as original rolls are gradually opened by folks who really need to know what's in them, the ones that are left undisturbed go up proportionally more in value.

joeykoins

WoW! as ugly as that picture may look, in our eyes ( Numis,nuts) their BEAUTIFUL! -joey

Tookybandit

<< <i>
I guess it comes down to a case of "Is the cat dead or alive? Until one opens the box it's both." >>




Schrödinger

I learned this from...

(Sorry, fixed the link)

rmpsrpms

It all comes down to risk/reward. You risk lowering the value of the roll by opening it and balance that with the reward of finding something of equal or higher value. Among the hundreds of OBW I have stashed, I have a handful of 1969-S bank rolls that have never been searched. These rolls have significant value over their tubed/searched brethren, but not enough to make me want to sell them rather than search them for the DDO's I just know are in there.

golden

I still have 2 paper wrappers that each contained 25 1909 VDB cents when I obtained them. I also owned an original roll of 50 1899 cents, but they did not have the wrapper when I got them.

rmpsrpms

Lots of games were played by folks in the early 60's. Half-rolls, rolling of older coins, etc. If you have any "OBW" or anything like that from the early teens or earlier, most likely they were put together in the early 60's or more recently after 2000 when such animals started to gain in potential value again.

Banks and distribution companies ALWAYS put their names on coin rolls right from the start, so you have the ability to research the bank to ensure it was operating under that name in the year the coins were rolled. Google "history of XYZ bank" and you will find a timeline of that bank's history including purchases, acquisitions, mergers, etc. The bank must have operated under the EXACT name on the paper wrapper in the year the coins were minted or it is a bogus roll. I've published many a post warning folks that a roll is bogus based on this, and it's pretty easy for you to check it yourself.