Sometimes the full steps designation is just silly

Russ

This one is in an MS66FS holder. Now, what is wrong with this picture?

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Now, what is wrong with this picture? >>


it is too small?
.

MsMorrisine

besides the B mint mark?

got a shot of the obverse, too?



It looks like one beat die, but it is what it is... it might be a full 66, too, fwiw. just because it is otherwise a full dog doesn't mean it doesn't qualify under the stated rules.

ModCrewman

Steps are about all that's there.

19Lyds

<< <i>This one is in an MS66FS holder. Now, what is wrong with this picture?

>>

Most of the front of the building is missing!

But hey! It's got FULL STEPS!

Come to think of it, thats probably WHY it ended up with Full Steps. That metal has to go somewhere!

magikbilly

Weakicello?

Eric

coinkat

OMG

Thanks Russ for posting a picture that illustrates what I have been trying to write for years- This has been my issue with this worthless designation.

Contrast full steps with full Monticello and which would you rather have?

Can I guess the date? 1952-s

cladking

<< <i>OMG

Thanks Russ for for your posting a picture that illustrtates what I have been trying to write for years- This has been my issue with this worthless designation.

Contrast full steps with full Monticello and which would you rather have?

Can I guess the date? 1952-s >>



If the dies were clashed a little harder you could just read the date. '53-S?

coinkat

Okay

FTR, I edited my post for typos- sorry for not typing better the first time

DorkGirl

Now that's funny.

Russ

<< <i>Can I guess the date? 1952-s >>



1940-S

coinkat

1941 followed by 1940 would have been my next suggestions

DNADave

Another case the "full strike" FS designation...which this one wouldn't earn.

emzee

Nagengast described (and sold) coins like this as "weak windows".

Michael

mingot

I'll see your FS designated 40S and raise you.

spy88

As anyone who knows this series, there are many dates from all three mints that just had terrible dies and let them go on stamping anyway. This looks to me to be a early '50s coin and yes, it could be a 66 even without a strong strike because for the first half of that decade, there simply weren't many (if any). It is BU, without major hits, nicks, scratches, so the grade may be justified.

As 19Lyds said...

<< <i>That metal has to go somewhere! >>



As for that '40-S of mingot's, it should be a MS62/3 as that year/mm Jeff are available with a much stronger strike (so early in the series).

Coinsponge

Not much use for steps if there is no door.

mingot

<< <i>As for that '40-S of mingot's, it should be a MS62/3 as that year/mm Jeff are available with a much stronger strike (so early in the series). >>



PCGS 65FS

spy88

<< <i>PCGS 65FS >>



Congrats and very surprised!

mingot

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS 65FS >>



Congrats and very surprised! >>



took decent images and sold it within a few days of getting it. lost a few bucks. no congrats applicable.

Russ

<< <i>As anyone who knows this series, there are many dates from all three mints that just had terrible dies and let them go on stamping anyway. This looks to me to be a early '50s coin and yes, it could be a 66 even without a strong strike because for the first half of that decade, there simply weren't many (if any). It is BU, without major hits, nicks, scratches, so the grade may be justified.

As 19Lyds said...

<< <i>That metal has to go somewhere! >>



As for that '40-S of mingot's, it should be a MS62/3 as that year/mm Jeff are available with a much stronger strike (so early in the series). >>



Uh, the one I posted is also a 1940-S.

spy88

As I said...

<< <i>This looks to me... >>

and I wasn't the only one to guess wrong.

I did miss your posting of the date.

madax425

I pay no attention to the FB,FH,FBL,FS, designations. just look at slq's for example more often than not it will be a debateable full head, with a weak shield and rivets, or with mercs for some dates, weakly split bands, with other weak areas. If you are patient and cherrypick you can find true FH,FS,FB coins in holders without the designation, and get a better coin for less money. The crazy thing is unless it is on the holder most dont care. I mean my eyes can see split bands or a full head. Silly as it is as long as it is on the holder many people will pay the premium, regardless of the true quality of the strike.

Neca63

Sunnywood

I have railed against those strike designations for a long time. If you're going to have any strike designation, how about just a generic "FS" for Full Strike. I think the focus on a particular attribute, FH, FS, FBL is arbitrary and somewhat senseless.

I have previously posted a magnificent 1924 SLQ on here, graded PCGS MS68+ (yes 68+ !!!) which has an 80% full head, yet full everything else, and the appearance of high relief with flawless surfaces, luster, and beautiful peripheral rainbow toning. Yet this coin gets an automatic 3-point downgrade if used an any Registry set, because it is not "FH." That's ridiculous!!! Oh, and I bought it from David Hall Rare Coins. Great coin, should not merit a "downgrade" at all.

However, none of these things makes me as crazy as "First Strike" (which is, of course, not necessarily a first strike at all, and certainly not in the way the term was always used in traditional numismatics). But wait - there might be an "FS" even worse than Full Steps or First Strike ...

yes, it's First Sold ... I have nothing to say about that.

Sunnywood

MsMorrisine

I've said something about Strong Strike before, but drawing the lines between SS, Mid Strike and WS(patent application pending) ?


Maybe a 70 point Strike Scale? No? Never mind.

But I like SS's and would give a point to have a better strike on a coin.


I don't know.... There are 3 die states. Why not 3 Strikes?

MrEureka

have previously posted a magnificent 1924 SLQ on here, graded PCGS MS68+ (yes 68+ !!!) which has an 80% full head, yet full everything else, and the appearance of high relief with flawless surfaces, luster, and beautiful peripheral rainbow toning. Yet this coin gets an automatic 3-point downgrade if used an any Registry set, because it is not "FH." That's ridiculous!!!


Which is more ridiculous? Them knocking your coin down 3 points, or you caring that they did it? Personally, I'd just be glad to have the coin.

Sunnywood

MrEureka, obviously I didn't care - I bought the coin after all
but I can still opine on the state of things, n'est-ce pas?

MrEureka

n'est-ce pas?

Are you going to show us the coin???

DMWJR

Strike should be a grading factor like the definition says. No need for an additional designation. The traditional definition (and the one on the PCGS site still) is that a coin must have a full strike to get a 65. Citing a Full Steps designation is supposed to be evidence of a full strike, and a coin with an incomplete strike but getting the full steps designation totally misses the point.

(Shouldn't be any brown cents higher than a 65 either )

Sunnywood

I had posted it on PCGS once before, and I don't like to spam the boards with the same coin over and over, but since you asked, here it is:

The image is Coin Facts, not True View (i.e. in the holder, not out of the holder, so not as good), and it doesn't capture the 3-D depth effect of this coin.

Sunnywood

DMWJR

Strike should be a grading factor like the definition says. No need for an additional designation. The traditional definition (and the one on the PCGS site still) is that a coin must have a full strike to get a 65. Citing a Full Steps designation is supposed to be evidence of a full strike, and a coin with an incomplete strike but getting the full steps designation totally misses the point.

(Shouldn't be any brown cents higher than a 65 either )

Sunnywood

Sunnywood

Wow my computer went nuts, no idea why it posted five times ...

DMWJR

Strike should be a grading factor like the definition says. No need for an additional designation. The traditional definition (and the one on the PCGS site still) is that a coin must have a full strike to get a 65. Citing a Full Steps designation is supposed to be evidence of a full strike, and a coin with an incomplete strike but getting the full steps designation totally misses the point.

(Shouldn't be any brown cents higher than a 65 either )

ms70

<< <i>I have railed against those strike designations for a long time. If you're going to have any strike designation, how about just a generic "FS" for Full Strike. I think the focus on a particular attribute, FH, FS, FBL is arbitrary and somewhat senseless. >>



I'm right there with ya brother.

Sunnywood

Sorry everyone for the multiple posts ... my computer froze and kept posting the same message over and over until I turned it off and rebooted ... bizarre

lostincoins

Sunnywood you can opine any time you want but I agree I would like to see an image of the coin also as you have an amazing eye.

MsMorrisine

Forum hiccup


That's a killer SLQ



I rate it a SS, EDS

CoinJunkie

<< <i>I have railed against those strike designations for a long time. If you're going to have any strike designation, how about just a generic "FS" for Full Strike. I think the focus on a particular attribute, FH, FS, FBL is arbitrary and somewhat senseless. >>


In the case of Merc and Roosie dimes, I think focusing on the bands as a determinant of "full strike"
is a reasonable approach. It's not perfect, of course, but nothing subjective ever is. I don't really
collect SLQs or Franklins, so have no opinion on FH or FBL, except to say that they seem far more
subjective than FB.

MsMorrisine

And if only the OP picture survived

It was an XWS (also patent application pending). But such designation is used quite rarely

leothelyon

<< <i>Not much use for steps if there is no door. >>

leothelyon

<< <i>Not much use for steps if there is no door. >>

Broadstruck

<< <i>Sorry everyone for the multiple posts ... my computer froze and kept posting the same message over and over until I turned it off and rebooted ... bizarre >>



SW, It's not your PC as it's the site which has been like this all weekend.

keets

if you understand what might have taken place on the strike which produced the OP's coin and other Jefferson Nickels with a similar appearance it makes a little more sense, especially with coins struck during the mid-1950's.

during that period of time at the Mint it was typical for not many Jefferson Nickels to exhibit a fully struck step area while the rest of the coin is crisp with well defined detail. after many thousands of strikes the dies would naturally begin to show a lack of detail due to wear or a buildup of debris in the finer areas of detail. at the same time the step area of the die isn't even coming into contact with the planchet so that fine detail of the die is intact. all that is required for fully struck steps and soft overall detail is a slight over-travel of the dies or an increase of pressure, either intentional or due to a press malfunction. I have owned several coins which had this appearance, weak detail in the building and obverse portrait, yet with perhaps the best struck steps approaching P/l quality.

without being able to see the OP coin it is difficult to know if that is what caused it to look as described but it is a plausible explanation for how some coins are struck with a similar appearance.

MsMorrisine

It is plausible, but I remember the coin and while it had FS it didn't have Full Monticello

The debate is if FS is a worthy designation to use for strike quality as it seems to be imperfect

keets

Sorry everyone for the multiple posts ... my computer froze and kept posting the same message over and over until I turned it off and rebooted ... bizarre

hey, I made a reply this morning to the thread and it was accepted and listed me as the last reply TTT but it is now gone. probably a PCGS problem of some type.

DIMEMAN

As a Mercury and Roosevelt Dime collector I have never been a slave to FB's. I would much rather have more hair on the obverse. I always go by the overall look of the coin and if it has bands .....OK....if not OK.

But I will not pay moon money for the FB on the label......NEVER!!

keets

The debate is if FS is a worthy designation to use for strike quality as it seems to be imperfect

I can end the "debate" by saying yes, it is a worthy designation because it is the deepest part of the design, the last area of the die to fill with metal when the coin is struck. with that in mind, the better the strike the better the metal flow and the better chance of a coin exhibiting full detail. my post above simply explained that in a roundabout way that maybe you couldn't infer. to that end, the Full Step designation doesn't necessarily equate to strike quality or the overall appearance of the coin. there are often flaws in planchets which won't be filled by even the best strike and the step area on a Jefferson Nickel is a good example of that: quite often what is seen as ticks and gouges actually is unstruck planchet flaws. I suspect/am quite certain that with some of the dates which are notorious for not having fully struck and well defined step detail the reason is that the dies used were simply incapable of striking that detail, it was so worn on the Master Die that the Working Dies were weak from the beginning. that is why at those points in the series the Mint took it upon themselves to make new Master Dies with slight modifications to improve metal flow. I also believe that a slightly underweight planchet would be incapable of becoming a Nickel with full steps.

BarberFanatic

<< <i>I have railed against those strike designations for a long time. If you're going to have any strike designation, how about just a generic "FS" for Full Strike. I think the focus on a particular attribute, FH, FS, FBL is arbitrary and somewhat senseless.

I have previously posted a magnificent 1924 SLQ on here, graded PCGS MS68+ (yes 68+ !!!) which has an 80% full head, yet full everything else, and the appearance of high relief with flawless surfaces, luster, and beautiful peripheral rainbow toning. Yet this coin gets an automatic 3-point downgrade if used an any Registry set, because it is not "FH." That's ridiculous!!! Oh, and I bought it from David Hall Rare Coins. Great coin, should not merit a "downgrade" at all.

However, none of these things makes me as crazy as "First Strike" (which is, of course, not necessarily a first strike at all, and certainly not in the way the term was always used in traditional numismatics). But wait - there might be an "FS" even worse than Full Steps or First Strike ...

yes, it's First Sold ... I have nothing to say about that.

Sunnywood >>




Agree 100%. Bravo, sir!