What happened to the Sports Talk board?

Objectivity

This board has barely any good debates going on!

I am glad the old Jim Rice thread got bumped...those were good times.

Baseball(the PSA poster not the sport), we may have to find some other topics to debate about...I'm needing to keep my mind occupied Getting tired of the same old debates we have had though.

Maybe an infusion of Jaxxr and his Kingman/Wagner method?

Winpitcher, what happened to your guy Ryan Howard? His ship is sinking fast! I though he was 'clutch city'....did he just strike out again in the post season? Did he just make ANOTHER last out in the post season?

perkdog

Always good to see you posting my friend!


Gone are the days when this place was hopping with daily arguments but still fun, it ussually picks up during Baseball pennant races and NFL Season...

Objectivity

Perk, right back at you. This board is a good diversion to get away from the daily grind. I miss some of those old characters though!

select22

Who will be the premier closer for next 10-15 years with M Revera retiring after this season?

Think Craig Kimbrel has the stuff to stay dominate or will it be someone else?

greencrow

Happy Birthday Chuck Norris. Anyone have any good jokes?

stown

<< <i>Happy Birthday Chuck Norris. Anyone have any good jokes? >>



Chuck doesn't do push ups, his superior strength defies gravity and pushes the Earth down.

onlyanumber

Chuck Norris doesn't call the wrong number. You answered the wrong phone.

PowderedH2O

I'm not a Jim Rice lover or hater. If we put him in the HOF, he clearly is on the borderline. If he hadn't been elected, that would have been a borderline call as well. But, if we are comparing left fielders of similar eras, why is Jim Rice IN, while Tim Raines is OUT? Rice had more power and RBI's (which is a relatively meaningless stat), but Raines had a fabulous .385 OBP, and then was one of the greatest base stealers of all-time once he got on base. And while Raines was never a Gold Glove winner, he did have great range in left field and actually might have been hosed out of a Gold Glove here and there. I mean, if you lead the league in fielding percentage AND range factor at your position, shouldn't that be a pretty good resume for a Gold Glove? Raines is #8 All-Time in WAR among left fielders. Rice is #25. Again, I'm not saying Rice was a BAD ball player, but if he's a HOFer, then Raines ought to be in as well.

onlyanumber

Chuck Norris tutors the Dos Equis man.

JoeBanzai

I wouldn't go so far as to say RBI's are a "relatively meaningless stat". Without RBI guys in the lineup aren't stolen bases a relatively meaningless stat?

Before you load up the shotgun, I think Rice is a bit over rated and Raines is quite a bit under rated. Power hitters simply command more attention.

Joe

onlyanumber

Chuck Norris can powerslide a horse.

stown

Death once had a near Chuck Norris experience.

PowderedH2O

The reason I say "relatively meaningless" is because it is based so much on the team on which you play. Take Jim Rice in 1985, for example. Wade Boggs got on base 336 times that year via walk or base hit. Take away the 8 homers, and he is on base for somebody to knock him in 328 times. Typically, Rice batted 4th in 1985 behind Boggs, Evans, and Buckner. Evans got on base 247 times that were not home runs, and Buckner got on base 215 times that were not home runs. So, those guys were on base A LOT! Yes, Evans and Buckner knocked in Boggs quite a few times, but what I am saying is that when Jim Rice came to bat, he had men on base a good percentage of the time. Even if he just hits at a decent clip, the chances of him knocking in 100 RBI's are pretty good.
Now, lets say Rice is on the 1985 Texas Rangers instead of the Sox. He still hits in the 4 slot, but he hits behind Toby Harrah, Oddibe McDowell, and Buddy Bell. Do you really think Rice ends up with the same amount of RBI's? Not a chance.
RBI's are a nice way to look at run production, but the stat is not a fair one. Heck, Tom Herr had 110 RBI's one year when he was batting behind Vince Coleman and Willie McGee in their prime. If you put enough men on base, ANY decent hitter can rack up impressive RBI stats. Just my take.

thunderpower

Not many people here anymore.

JoeBanzai

Powdered, I understand how the RBI works and I would love to see a stat that breaks down a batters percentage of RBI's produced bringing into consideration how many men were on base. Ted Williams used to speak about this as well.

When Killebrew drove in 140 in 1969 he was quoted as saying there was so many guys on base for him he should have had 240 RBI.

It's really the same with almost ALL of the statistics, good teammates make you a better player IF YOU PRODUCE. You put Raines on some of my mid to late 1970's Minnesota Twins teams and his runs scored goes WAY down.

Look at all the players above Rice on the career RBI list. Pretty much all HOF'ers. Rice averaged 116 RBI's per year for his career, he probably had a few good years. The manager tries to put the best guy at driving in runs batting 4th, just like he puts the speed/high average guy leading off.

Being on a good team is always going to give ALL the players on that team more opportunities to succeed (and fail), it's not the players fault.

I am not a big Jim Rice guy, he does seem borderline, but he also had a few HUGE seasons. Looking at total bases (which should be a fairly stand alone stat) 6 times over 300 and once over 400 says he could hit pretty well. Of course a couple of more GOOD seasons would have cleared up the whole argument.

Joe

PowderedH2O

I hear ya. I don't see 116 RBI's a year for Rice. I see less than 100, even if you throw out 1974, the strike year, and 1989 in which he retired early. I am not saying Rice couldn't hit. He certainly could. Anybody that leads the league in total bases four times can obviously rake. I just wouldn't use RBI's in the argument. I have to believe that if I put a generic #4 hitter in the Red Sox lineup in the mid 1980's (let's say a Larry Parrish, Cory Snyder, Don Baylor, whoever...), that player would have a legitimate opportunity to knock in 100+ runs every year without having to have a really good year. Honestly, if you hit .275 with 25 homers, you'd probably do it with the Red Sox lineup as it was at that time. Nothing wrong with .275 and 25 homers, but it isn't anything to be writing home about.
In similarity scores, the ten players closest to Rice include three HOFers (Cepeda, Snider, and Billy Williams) that were all guys that had to wait a while to get into the Hall (as did Rice). Of the other seven, five of them have no chance ever, one of them is borderline and has used up his eligibility (Dave Parker), and the other is Paul Konerko, who is still playing and will likely not be so similar to Rice when all is said and done. So, if you like similarity scores, it says Rice is a borderline HOFer, and that's exactly how it turned out. He landed on the good side of the line. But not by much...

JoeBanzai

I got my stats from this site which says his 162 game season average is 116 RBI's

Rice's stats

Too bad my guy Killebrew wasn't on those Red Sox teams in his prime!

Boston actually visited Killebrew before Washington found him. Talk about ballpark factors Killebrew + Fenway = 800 HRs?

Joe

JoeBanzai

It makes sense to me that a big strong right handed batter would perform better at Fenway. Of all the visiting parks, Killebrew hit more home runs at Fenway than any other stadium.

I don't put as much stock in the "ballpark factor" as some of you guys do. Rice didn't get 350+ total bases hitting singles of the green monster.

People always bring up Yankee Stadium during Dimaggio's years saying it hurt him so much. I don't agree, he lost some home runs for sure, but I'll bet he got quite a few more doubles and triples because of all that outfield.

Joe

JoeBanzai

<< <i>JoeBanzai,

Since you're such a self proclaimed OPS guy, I let the numbers speak for themselves. Rationalize them however you want.


Jim Rice:

.920 Home
.789 Road


Joe DiMaggio:

0.938 Home
1.015 Road >>



Not sure what you mean. Seems self explanatory to me. First thing that comes to mind is Dimaggio was a stud! A MUCH better hitter than Rice. Rice was still darn good though, especially at home where he could use the Monster to hit homeruns that in other parks would have been outs. Remember, I said I would like to see how Killebrew's career home run totals would be if he played in Boston.

If you are referring to the fact that Joe hit for a higher OPS on the road, that seems logical as well. Yankee stadium would tend to hurt OPS, for a righthander. Can you find Joe's home/road batting average numbers? It would also be interesting to see how many doubles and triples he hit in Yankee stadium compared to away.

Just because I like OPS doesn't mean I ignore everything else!!!!!!

Would also like to see splits on Mantle, Ruth and Gehrig to see if Y.S. hurt them as well.

I don't know how to find these home/away stats, but I'll bet MOST players hit better at home.

Joe

JoeBanzai

<< <i>Here are many/most of the prominent Red Sox hitters in history who played substantially all (or the clear majority) of their careers in Fenway:

Carl Yastrzemski:
.904 - Home
.779 - Road

Bobby Doerr:
.928 - Home
.716 - Road

Dom DiMaggio:
.876 - Home
.727 - Road

Ted Williams:
1.148 - Home
1.082 - Road

Dustin Pedroia:
.883 - Home
.778 - Road

David Ortiz:
.965 - Home
.889 - Road

Wade Boggs:
.934 - Home
.781 - Road

Dwight Evans:
.885 - Home
.798 - Road >>



Wow, looks like Yastrzemski was over rated!

I had always heard that Fenway was a tougher than average park for lefties. Seems like the left handed batters did better at home as well. Or am I wrong?

Joe

JoeBanzai

I AM confused. Are you reading my posts? I don't know who you are arguing with.

Let me try it again. Yes, Rice had an advantage in Fenway, for the third time I will use Killebrew (a right handed pull hitter, who also was a fly ball as opposed to line drive hitter) as my AGREEMENT that ballparks have an effect on players OPS. Had Killebrew played for Boston, he might have hit 700+ home runs.

Dimaggio hit three home runs on the road to every two at home BUT he also was rewarded in the extent that he hit three triples at home to every two on the road. I know this doesn't make things equal, but the larger outfield, while making it hard for him to hit it out of the park gave him bigger "gaps" between the players, thus increasing his triples.

As I said before, I am not a Jim Rice guy. I really don't object to him in the HOF, but if he wasn't in, I wouldn't be upset about that either.

In bringing in Ballpark effect, (other than Fenway) do you automatically give a right handed player a little more credit than a lefty? Most parks have much shorter right field dimensions than in left.

Ted Williams said in his book "The Hit List" that in general right handed batters had it tougher because of this, plus the fact that most pitchers are also right handed. He also said that Fenway was tougher on left handed batters, which was part of the reason for the Dimaggio for Williams trade rumors that went around during their playing days.

It just happens to be a fact that unlike the other sports Baseball has some huge differences in the playing field dimensions.

I just don't think a ballpark makes as much of a difference as you do. Perhaps with the exception of Fenway. The player still has to have the ability to take advantage of every "edge" he can.

Give me your idea of what you think the splits should be for a player.

Do you think they should be different for left handed batters? How about sluggers as opposed to high average low(er) home run guys?

Joe

JoeBanzai

Thanks for showing me where the "splits" could be found. More interesting information.

JoeBanzai

You're funny.

I have agreed in principal with most of what you are saying.

I do think it is a valid point that Dimaggio hit more triples at home when every other stat shows he did better away. I don't think you can REALLY dispute that. I was wrong in assuming he hit more doubles though. With that HUGE outfield, I assumed both doubles AND triples would be easier to hit.

I ASKED you if you gave a little more credit to right handed batters. It seems like you just want to argue, I was trying to get some opinions out of you (other than the Fenway factor) to understand how your thought process works. If all you want to talk about is Jim Rice, this has been done to the point of beating a dead horse. Does he deserve to be in the HOF? I don't know, there are others (Tony Oliva and probably Raines) I would put in first.

I agree (again) that Fenway helped Rice and Y.S. hurt Dimaggio's HR totals. I was just trying to bring in some more/different factors that effect hitters.

In looking at Killebrew's splits, he was pretty consistent in his home/away split numbers, .899 at home .871 on the road. He did do better at Fenway than any other park. Are his numbers more what you think they should look like or does he appear to be closer than most?

The reason I brought up Ted Williams is he knew a little bit about hitting and he addressed some of these same points in his book.

Joe

JoeBanzai

Thank you.

onlyanumber

Chuck Norris played baseball once. He went 4 for 3.













(Sorry. Some good baseball talk there. Don't want to see this thread slow down and die...)

stown

FREE CHUCKY!

Ooops, sorry, wrong thread...