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Fake J-M 100 oz. silver bar reported in NW Indiana today

CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,099 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Precious Metals
A long-time and very knowledgable dealer that I know in NW Indiana reported this on the dealer-to-dealer network today:

"had a fake JM 100 oz bar in today

1st I've ever seen

Decent would fool the small
Cash for Gold guys 85% of the time

weighed exact ..was vacuum sealed in a thinner plastic

the logos etc were lighter struck slightly off color and serial
number was hand hit in triple deep as regular strike"
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

Comments

  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    May I ask who the dealer was? First name is good enough, thanks.
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,099 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sent.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • KUCHKUCH Posts: 1,186


    << <i>Sent. >>



    Please PM me the name also. I purchase from a NW Indiana dealer. Thanks
  • indiananationalsindiananationals Posts: 1,094
    I would like to know aswell I'm in Indiana did they get pictures
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  • FullCameoFullCameo Posts: 492
    I'm in indiana too, please PM me.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can we get a pic of this bar? I've heard of smaller bars that were fake and larger bars that were drilled out but I've never heard of a large bar of this size that was fake. Sounds like the only reason that he was condemning it was because of how it was stamped. Since the stamping of the logo and the serial number are separate operations I'm not surprised that one would be struck more heavily than the other. I've seen real bars with both weak and heavy stamps so I'm a bit skeptical that this bar is a fake especially when this bar has the proper weight. One member here recently posted an Engelhard bar that was double stamped. I get the feeling that the precision of stamping these bars was never a major priority of the silver refiners since most of their product was made to be consumed in the manufacturing of silverware, jewelry, electronics, etc.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    I'm interpreting from what the dealer said that was provided by CaptH, is that the logo was weak, but the serial number was extremely deep. Also, being wrapped in plastic is a crude attempt to block the magnet test. I woulda been skeptical too.
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,086 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm interpreting from what the dealer said that was provided by CaptH, is that the logo was weak, but the serial number was extremely deep. Also, being wrapped in plastic is a crude attempt to block the magnet test. I woulda been skeptical too. >>



    The logo and the serial number are stamped by different machines in different operations. I've seen a great degree of variation in the depth/strendth of stamps on various genuine bars so this wouldn't raise a red flag for me. And, since when would a shrink wrap block a magnet?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    Actually the dealer said "thinner plastic"...wrong of me to assume it was shrink wrap. I was using the words loosely, my bad.

    If shrink wrapped (using actual shrink wrap) enough would block a weak magnet. I know it will because i've done the experiment.
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    I just got an email from the dealer this happened to, and I will confirm what CaptH says that the dealer is extremely knowledgable and has been around forever.

    He said:
    "it was a old style loaf/poured JM bar, the color was way off, very grey and the stamping looked like it was done with a hammer and stamp... was also vacumed sealed in plastic, just didn't look right at all.... weight was perfect but just wasn't right."

    I'm assuming, because he did not say so for sure, that he did not perform an acid test, probably because the seller refused to take the plastic off the bar...but that's purely assumption on my part.


    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This bar may very well be fake which was why I was asking for a pic. If someone went through all this trouble to create a fake of proper weight, why wouldn't they just silver plate it? Could the gray color be caused by the bar being dirty or contaminated? Doesn't toning cause some strange coloration on silver?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    If the bar was wrapped in some type of "plastic", why would it be off-color as the dealer said it distinctly was?

    edited to add:
    to my knowledge, no picture was taken of the bar in question. I know this dealer personally. There is no way he would report something on a dealer to dealer network if it wasn't fact.
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • Yukoncornelius1Yukoncornelius1 Posts: 654 ✭
    A person really has to be careful when purchasing silver bars as the crooks seem to be perfecting their trade, back when I started buying silver the only issue seemed to be drilled out extruded Engelhard 100 oz. bars.
  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭
    this 100 oz bar may be as fake as the former thread about jm kilo bars that were proclaimed fake, but not really fake...
    keceph `anah
  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I just got an email from the dealer this happened to, and I will confirm what CaptH says that the dealer is extremely knowledgable and has been around forever.

    He said:
    "it was a old style loaf/poured JM bar, the color was way off, very grey and the stamping looked like it was done with a hammer and stamp... was also vacumed sealed in plastic, just didn't look right at all.... weight was perfect but just wasn't right."

    I'm assuming, because he did not say so for sure, that he did not perform an acid test, probably because the seller refused to take the plastic off the bar...but that's purely assumption on my part. >>



    most likely it was an old pour 100 oz JM bar from bullion direct, thats how they did them in the old days...
    keceph `anah
  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    this 100 oz bar may be as fake as the former thread about jm kilo bars that were proclaimed fake, but not really fake...

    You mean the one from our own SilverBaron here? Those were proven to be legit, just variations of what is more commonly seen?
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
  • mrpaseomrpaseo Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭


    << <i>this 100 oz bar may be as fake as the former thread about jm kilo bars that were proclaimed fake, but not really fake...

    You mean the one from our own SilverBaron here? Those were proven to be legit, just variations of what is more commonly seen? >>




    I believe that was rawteam1's point.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,099 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's see.....we have the opinion of somebody with maybe 40 years experience in the trade, who has seen the bar, vs. the opinions of various people who have not seen the bar.........
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • piecesofmepiecesofme Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
    Let's see.....we have the opinion of somebody with maybe 40 years experience in the trade, who has seen the bar, vs. the opinions of various people who have not seen the bar.........

    image Couldn't have said it better, esp. personally knowing the character of the person that held in hand/saw with own eyes.
    To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
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