Newp - 1829/7 O.102a R5 CBH, or die-state not late enough?

BustHalfBrian

In order to qualify for the status of 102 "a", the vertical die crack must extend from the edge, through the 9, penetrate the hair curls, and end at clasp.

My example exhibits the first three without a doubt, but I can't make-out the die crack at the clasp. I might... just might see a crack peaking through the ribbon near the clasp, but if there is one, it's extremely faint.

So with this said, you think my example could still be considered a "102a"?

And feel free to grade, comment, etc is you can't shed light on the questions regarding the variety

STONE

That is a superb CBH!

habaraca

Looks good to me....

Who says it "MUST" Not Overton or Herrman.....

The Prime has NO crack so I say your's qualifies.

zap1111

If it were mine, I'd say it was the a state. Enough evidence is there. Nice coin! I'd call it EF40 with nice toning and some luster.
zap

harveypb

My piece has the diecrack through the 9 and the curl
and appears to stop there. See Image.
It is the R5 die state..

BustHalfBrian

<< <i>If it were mine, I'd say it was the a state. Enough evidence is there. Nice coin! I'd call it EF40 with nice toning and some luster.
zap >>



Great! Thanks for the input

and yeah, there is an unusual amount of luster for the grade. The peripheries really shimmer under a light!



<< <i>My piece has the diecrack through the 9 and the curl
and appears to stop there. See Image.
It is the R5 die state..
>>



Nice one, harvey!

jayPem

I think you'd better wait for Mozin to chime in before you get too excited there buddy...

BustHalfBrian

<< <i>I think you'd better wait for Mozin to chime in before you get too excited there buddy... >>



Good point...

The thread has "CBH" in the title, so I'm sure he'll pay us a visit here soon

CoinZip

This is not my coin.....but the die crack shows really nice in this photo.

http://coinzip.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=downloadattachment&board=1829b&thread=1822&post=28846&key=UPMnUfgsY1n0fweZhj9S

BustHalfBrian

<< <i>This is not my coin.....but the die crack shows really nice in this photo.

http://coinzip.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=downloadattachment&board=1829b&thread=1822&post=28846&key=UPMnUfgsY1n0fweZhj9S >>



That's a great example - thanks for posting.

That's one heck of an LDS! Wish mine looked like that

BustHalfBrian

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>This is not my coin.....but the die crack shows really nice in this photo.

http://coinzip.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=downloadattachment&board=1829b&thread=1822&post=28846&key=UPMnUfgsY1n0fweZhj9S >>



That's a great example, thanks.

That's one heck of an LDS! Wish mine looked like that >>



Unless I am missing something really obvious, your example is of a slightly but most definitely later die state. >>



Not quite, IMHO.

In the example CoinZip posted, the die crack has extended well up into the clasp, which my example doesn't show.

OKbustchaser

It doesn't look as if your coin quite qualifies. The die crack seems to stop at the ribbon rather than extending on through to the clasp. Intermediate die states are classified as the more common state of the two. (For example, if on the other hand, the prime die state for the '29-102 happpened to be R-5 while the "a" version was R-2 then your coin would be considered the "a" model.)






Kinda convoluted and silly ain't it? I say call it what it is...a nice VF+ bustie.

BustHalfBrian

<< <i> ...The die crack seems to stop at the ribbon rather than extending on through to the clasp. Intermediate die states are classified as the more common state of the two... >>



Curious - where's the source of this info?

I thought the more IDS examples showed a crack that ran only from the rim through the 9, and once it extended into the fields above 9, it could be considered an LDS (or "a" model) example.

Both silly and convoluted, I agree... and that's why I love it so much

harveypb

The early die state does NOT have the crack at all.....

BustHalfBrian

<< <i>The early die state does NOT have the crack at all..... >>



I understand that. I said IDS (Intermediate Die State), not EDS.

jayPem

I knew this one wouldn't go down without a fight...
Don't worry, I've tossed out a few prime vs. intermediate vs.LDS threads in the past...nobody ever agrees.
For the couple of dates that I'm interested in collecting by die state, if it looks prime to me, then I call it prime...if looks a model
and I'm looking for an a model, in it goes as an a model , the BHNC have yet to come by my house and erase the designation
off of any of my 2x2's...

mozin

The latest BHNC die state study says "If your coin has the particular crack (or other item) mentioned for the die state, even if not fully defined, it is still that die state." Many time perhaps there should be an official intermediate DS, or should any sign of a crack move the coin to the a-DS? There is certainly nothing more definite currently as pertains to cracks determining die states.

My personal thought is that intermediate die states should be given the same rarity as the more common die state. Many collectors do not agree with me. When it comes time to pay up for a coin, I think most everyone would insist that all the Overton cracks must be present to garner the LDS extra money. There are so few die state collectors that bidding for a rare DS can result in a bargain---OR two bidders might have the bucks to spend moon money.

lava

It seems to escaped the conversation to date whether the die crack was never as high as others, or whether it may be but wear makes it impossible to determine. I haven't seen too many with the crack. It is rare. I went to check the length of the crack on my example and it is missing, so the variety may be even rarer now.

JRocco

Nice coin BHB
There has to be a line drawn in the sand regarding most things.
This one sure bumps right into that line. Now does it cross the line ?
That I am not too sure of. If I was going to pay moon money for the
variety I would want to see the complete crack.

messydesk

We have some of the same issues in VAM collecting. There are some coins that have many know die stages for a specific variety. The 1888-O VAM 1B is a good example, as it has 11 stages shown, starting with no die crack at all (stage 0, or "prime", to use CBH parlance, state), all the way to stage 10, with a break from the rim at 10:00 across Liberty's cheek, neck, and lower hair. Value depends on degree of die break as well as rarity of that stage, and there are people collecting entire die progressions. The name depends on thresholds of the die break, as the VAM 1B has officially been broken up into 1B1 through 1B4, with only the 1B3 and 1B4 being advanced enough breaks to count as a "Scarface" to those keeping score.


<< <i>Both silly and convoluted, I agree... and that's why I love it so much >>


Aye.

jayPem

<< <i>We have some of the same issues in VAM collecting. There are some coins that have many know die stages for a specific variety. The 1888-O VAM 1B is a good example, as it has 11 stages shown, starting with no die crack at all (stage 0, or "prime", to use CBH parlance, state), all the way to stage 10, with a break from the rim at 10:00 across Liberty's cheek, neck, and lower hair. Value depends on degree of die break as well as rarity of that stage, and there are people collecting entire die progressions. The name depends on thresholds of the die break, as the VAM 1B has officially been broken up into 1B1 through 1B4, with only the 1B3 and 1B4 being advanced enough breaks to count as a "Scarface" to those keeping score.


<< <i>Both silly and convoluted, I agree... and that's why I love it so much >>


Aye. >>



This sounds good to me...with all the enthusiasm around CBH and varieties, I'm surprised there isn't a system like this yet.

lava

<< <i>

<< <i>We have some of the same issues in VAM collecting. There are some coins that have many know die stages for a specific variety. The 1888-O VAM 1B is a good example, as it has 11 stages shown, starting with no die crack at all (stage 0, or "prime", to use CBH parlance, state), all the way to stage 10, with a break from the rim at 10:00 across Liberty's cheek, neck, and lower hair. Value depends on degree of die break as well as rarity of that stage, and there are people collecting entire die progressions. The name depends on thresholds of the die break, as the VAM 1B has officially been broken up into 1B1 through 1B4, with only the 1B3 and 1B4 being advanced enough breaks to count as a "Scarface" to those keeping score.


<< <i>Both silly and convoluted, I agree... and that's why I love it so much >>


Aye. >>



This sounds good to me...with all the enthusiasm around CBH and varieties, I'm surprised there isn't a system like this yet. >>



Time to make such a system for CBH.

BustHalfBrian

As if Overton's book weren't "foreign language" enough, let's add a couple more numbers and letters to the end of each variety..............

But really - personally - I think using similar methods for Bust halves would just over-complicate things.

And, my God, just think of the man hours necessary to research/document such information...

lava

Found my example with the full crack.

lkeigwin

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>We have some of the same issues in VAM collecting. There are some coins that have many know die stages for a specific variety. The 1888-O VAM 1B is a good example, as it has 11 stages shown, starting with no die crack at all (stage 0, or "prime", to use CBH parlance, state), all the way to stage 10, with a break from the rim at 10:00 across Liberty's cheek, neck, and lower hair. Value depends on degree of die break as well as rarity of that stage, and there are people collecting entire die progressions. The name depends on thresholds of the die break, as the VAM 1B has officially been broken up into 1B1 through 1B4, with only the 1B3 and 1B4 being advanced enough breaks to count as a "Scarface" to those keeping score.


<< <i>Both silly and convoluted, I agree... and that's why I love it so much >>


Aye. >>



This sounds good to me...with all the enthusiasm around CBH and varieties, I'm surprised there isn't a system like this yet. >>



Time to make such a system for CBH. >>

It aint broke.
Lance.

johnny9434

looks like a nice pick up from here

maibockaddict

Here is mine with some crack
XF40

BustHalfBrian

Nice example, maibockaddict. I like its originality.

Here are some new pics of mine, still raw. Until PCGS recognizes this 'a' die state, it will probably remain raw.