Stone's Tobacciana Thread - T3 Turkey Red Framed Ad; Favorite Chewing Tobacco Nellie Fox - Ramleh ci
Stone193
Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hi everyone - I'm placing this up for those who have the time over the weekend to check it out - it will be ongoing with additions of other products and items. I know it's long - for that I apologize.
First up - Helmar Cigarettes.
The origin of Helmar Cigarettes:
The Egyptian Ideal and Tobacco Works started producing Ramleh cigarettes in 1902.
By 1907, they were being made by S. Arnogyros (they produced Turkey Red - for you T3 aficionados) - a branch of the American Tobacco Co.
The American Tobacco Co. felt that the name was too confusing - since Ramleh (city in Israel) resembled a competitor - Ramly Cigarettes which were made by the Mentor Cigarette Co., Boston, MA. I read - but won't say this is gospel - that Mentor made the cigarettes "after" Ramleh to capitalize on their popularity.
So, they decided to change the name but keep the cool Egyptian graphics. Later, someone came up with the idea of 'reversing' the name - thus the birth of Helmar.
Here's an old ad for the Ramley product and what the pack looked like - I gotta say, I didn't know Helmar had another trade name.
Finding this pack would be some feat I believe.
Now, fast forward from 1907 to 1911: the Supreme Court ruled against tobacco - they were in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 - the major companies to emerge out of the decision were: The American Toacco Co., R.J. Reynolds, Liggett & Meyers Tobacco Co., Lorillard and British-American Tobacco.
Thus, now - Lorillard is the producer of Helmar product - though of interest - I noticed the Arnogyros name is still on the inside of the cover to the packs. The Lorillard name is on the outside edge of the packs. And at some point, I believe - based on different packs - it was removed all together.
I've noticed some subtle changes in the packs and - more importantly - some packs have "Tax Stamps" on them. This - obviously - is the easiest way to date a pack.
Side note on Tax Stamps:
The stamp - as such - is apiece of artwork and had a date on it - I'm guessing up to 1932.
The top scan is the leading edge of the stamp with the current date - in this instance 1910; the bottom date of 1909 is the enactment of the new taxation.
(Dewitt Clinton sure looks like a happy guy - right?
)
Side note:
Most webs say the early Ramleh product was made in 1902 - some allude to around 1907 as the change in name - before the antitrust decision. But, how can we account for this date in which the product name is Helmar in 1901?
Helmar pack with early stamp:
The enactment of 1901 with a "present" date of 1901! That's the earliest I've ever found on these kinds of packs.
And this Ramleh ad is dated by the writer as 1907 - which to me is probably impossible OR they were producing both products at the same time?
Now - back to tax stamp dates - a change occurred in 1932 when they modified stamps - no longer do they have dates but rather a "Series" number.
Thus 1932 equals series number 102. Thus, after that each year gets "1" digit - so that series 103 would be 1933 and so on.
Heres a full pack from the war - Series 115 (115-102=13 and 13 + 1932=) 1945. Why didn't they just keep the date?
Unfortunately, many packs don't have the tax stamp on them - I'm assuming they were easy to remove or had them glued to cellophane? Not sure about this.
So, besides the stamp, one has to do some deduction to figure the date - examining the outside of the box - what's on it and comparing the box to magazine ads would be a good way to potentially date the packs.
Also, on the appearance - first - I noticed that the early packs were called Helmar "Turkish" cigarettes and the later packs are sans that reference.
Here's a really cool "baseball" type ad from 1916 with the "Turkish" reference:
And here's a 1923 ad:
So - I can deduce that the packaging was most likely the same from 1901 to around 1923?
I'll be adding to the "dating" of packs as I pick up more information. This is by no means a major "focus" of mine - and I look at this topic from time to time - last time was 2 years ago!
Furthermore one can do a bit of identifying by what's on the "back" of the pack. Some packs have the Helmar name on the reverse while others have a "red stamp" affixed.
I haven't fully worked this out as of yet - this stamp is from 1910 - and is Factory No.7.
I'm sure everyone is familiar with their premiums - baseball related stamps, silks, leathers - not gonna go into the non-sport items.
1911 - Helmar Stamps
"Sidebar" - since the American Tobacco Company was dismantled under the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1911 - and these stamps were issued around that time? Who gets the credit? ATC or Lorillard?
The checklist has 180.
1912 Helmar Leathers
It's my understanding that one would have to redeem 50 coupons in order to get one leather which is 9 1/2 X 7 3/8" - I understand there's a total of 25 BB players.
1912 Helmar Silks
It's my understanding that one has to redeem 25 coupons to get a silk.
And just to add to the variety of packs - here's a cool metal box which holds 50 cigarettes:
And here's a variation to the earlier packs - from 1910:
And these types of "store" advertisements are kinda cool - but tend to go for too much money:
As one can see - not only were premiums placed in packs but also coupons good for cash or "other" redeemable items.
Don't want to bore - but for all those who collect "T" cards - it's interesting how powerful the American Tobacco Company - the Duke family - was.
Tho the Dukes had troubles scoffing up the very small companies that had hand-rolling specialty brands in NYC. They did manage to to buy up the larger firms like M. Melanchrino, S. Anargyros, Monopole and Schinasi Bros. bringing on board their expensive brands like Melachrino, Murad, Helmar, Mogul, Natural, Egyptienne Prettiest, Egyptienne Straights and Egyptienne Deities - Turkish blends.
Duke also sold a cheaper line of "Turkish blends" which included Hassan, Mecca and Fatima.
Eventually, the trust absorbed most of the other major tobacco companies in the country including Mayo and Wright & Patterson of Richmond, Hanes & Brown of Winston, Beck of Chicago, Scotten-Dillon of Detroit, Bollman of San Francisco, Finzer of Louisville and Sorg of Middletown. By 1909, The American Tobacco trust controlled 86% of the national cigarette business, 85% of plug, 76% of smoking tobacco, 97% of snuff and 14% of cigar manufacture.
As I said earlier - the "trust bust" split up the Duke "empire" - with Lorillard securing their brand - aka Helmar.
1910 Helmar Silks
And way back in 2005 - this 1911 "uncut" Silk went for close to 200K!
I'm adding a tobacco store which features Helmar.
87 Tillary Street, Brooklyn, and was taken on Sunday, November 27, 1927. Broadcaster Vin Scully, the voice of the Dodgers, was born nearby that same day.
I picked this up very reasonable - not ornate or iconic "Helmar" - but still a nice cardboard poster.
I got it today - first thing I did was check it with a "black" light - and it's prior to 1940 - did not fluoresce.
Then I put it under the microscope - and the printing style is not modern IMO.
The poster is approximately 12X20" - was found in a warehouse in Boston.
Wow - that was long! Thanx for viewing - again - like my games, this isn't a card - but I just wanted to add something different to our forum.
First up - Helmar Cigarettes.
The origin of Helmar Cigarettes:
The Egyptian Ideal and Tobacco Works started producing Ramleh cigarettes in 1902.
By 1907, they were being made by S. Arnogyros (they produced Turkey Red - for you T3 aficionados) - a branch of the American Tobacco Co.
The American Tobacco Co. felt that the name was too confusing - since Ramleh (city in Israel) resembled a competitor - Ramly Cigarettes which were made by the Mentor Cigarette Co., Boston, MA. I read - but won't say this is gospel - that Mentor made the cigarettes "after" Ramleh to capitalize on their popularity.
So, they decided to change the name but keep the cool Egyptian graphics. Later, someone came up with the idea of 'reversing' the name - thus the birth of Helmar.
Here's an old ad for the Ramley product and what the pack looked like - I gotta say, I didn't know Helmar had another trade name.
Finding this pack would be some feat I believe.
Now, fast forward from 1907 to 1911: the Supreme Court ruled against tobacco - they were in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 - the major companies to emerge out of the decision were: The American Toacco Co., R.J. Reynolds, Liggett & Meyers Tobacco Co., Lorillard and British-American Tobacco.
Thus, now - Lorillard is the producer of Helmar product - though of interest - I noticed the Arnogyros name is still on the inside of the cover to the packs. The Lorillard name is on the outside edge of the packs. And at some point, I believe - based on different packs - it was removed all together.
I've noticed some subtle changes in the packs and - more importantly - some packs have "Tax Stamps" on them. This - obviously - is the easiest way to date a pack.
Side note on Tax Stamps:
The stamp - as such - is apiece of artwork and had a date on it - I'm guessing up to 1932.
The top scan is the leading edge of the stamp with the current date - in this instance 1910; the bottom date of 1909 is the enactment of the new taxation.
(Dewitt Clinton sure looks like a happy guy - right?
)Side note:
Most webs say the early Ramleh product was made in 1902 - some allude to around 1907 as the change in name - before the antitrust decision. But, how can we account for this date in which the product name is Helmar in 1901?
Helmar pack with early stamp:
The enactment of 1901 with a "present" date of 1901! That's the earliest I've ever found on these kinds of packs.
And this Ramleh ad is dated by the writer as 1907 - which to me is probably impossible OR they were producing both products at the same time?
Now - back to tax stamp dates - a change occurred in 1932 when they modified stamps - no longer do they have dates but rather a "Series" number.
Thus 1932 equals series number 102. Thus, after that each year gets "1" digit - so that series 103 would be 1933 and so on.
Heres a full pack from the war - Series 115 (115-102=13 and 13 + 1932=) 1945. Why didn't they just keep the date?
Unfortunately, many packs don't have the tax stamp on them - I'm assuming they were easy to remove or had them glued to cellophane? Not sure about this.
So, besides the stamp, one has to do some deduction to figure the date - examining the outside of the box - what's on it and comparing the box to magazine ads would be a good way to potentially date the packs.
Also, on the appearance - first - I noticed that the early packs were called Helmar "Turkish" cigarettes and the later packs are sans that reference.
Here's a really cool "baseball" type ad from 1916 with the "Turkish" reference:
And here's a 1923 ad:
So - I can deduce that the packaging was most likely the same from 1901 to around 1923?
I'll be adding to the "dating" of packs as I pick up more information. This is by no means a major "focus" of mine - and I look at this topic from time to time - last time was 2 years ago!
Furthermore one can do a bit of identifying by what's on the "back" of the pack. Some packs have the Helmar name on the reverse while others have a "red stamp" affixed.
I haven't fully worked this out as of yet - this stamp is from 1910 - and is Factory No.7.
I'm sure everyone is familiar with their premiums - baseball related stamps, silks, leathers - not gonna go into the non-sport items.
1911 - Helmar Stamps
"Sidebar" - since the American Tobacco Company was dismantled under the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1911 - and these stamps were issued around that time? Who gets the credit? ATC or Lorillard?
The checklist has 180.
1912 Helmar Leathers
It's my understanding that one would have to redeem 50 coupons in order to get one leather which is 9 1/2 X 7 3/8" - I understand there's a total of 25 BB players.
1912 Helmar Silks
It's my understanding that one has to redeem 25 coupons to get a silk.
And just to add to the variety of packs - here's a cool metal box which holds 50 cigarettes:
And here's a variation to the earlier packs - from 1910:
And these types of "store" advertisements are kinda cool - but tend to go for too much money:
As one can see - not only were premiums placed in packs but also coupons good for cash or "other" redeemable items.
Don't want to bore - but for all those who collect "T" cards - it's interesting how powerful the American Tobacco Company - the Duke family - was.
Tho the Dukes had troubles scoffing up the very small companies that had hand-rolling specialty brands in NYC. They did manage to to buy up the larger firms like M. Melanchrino, S. Anargyros, Monopole and Schinasi Bros. bringing on board their expensive brands like Melachrino, Murad, Helmar, Mogul, Natural, Egyptienne Prettiest, Egyptienne Straights and Egyptienne Deities - Turkish blends.
Duke also sold a cheaper line of "Turkish blends" which included Hassan, Mecca and Fatima.
Eventually, the trust absorbed most of the other major tobacco companies in the country including Mayo and Wright & Patterson of Richmond, Hanes & Brown of Winston, Beck of Chicago, Scotten-Dillon of Detroit, Bollman of San Francisco, Finzer of Louisville and Sorg of Middletown. By 1909, The American Tobacco trust controlled 86% of the national cigarette business, 85% of plug, 76% of smoking tobacco, 97% of snuff and 14% of cigar manufacture.
As I said earlier - the "trust bust" split up the Duke "empire" - with Lorillard securing their brand - aka Helmar.
1910 Helmar Silks
And way back in 2005 - this 1911 "uncut" Silk went for close to 200K!
I'm adding a tobacco store which features Helmar.
87 Tillary Street, Brooklyn, and was taken on Sunday, November 27, 1927. Broadcaster Vin Scully, the voice of the Dodgers, was born nearby that same day.
I picked this up very reasonable - not ornate or iconic "Helmar" - but still a nice cardboard poster.
I got it today - first thing I did was check it with a "black" light - and it's prior to 1940 - did not fluoresce.
Then I put it under the microscope - and the printing style is not modern IMO.
The poster is approximately 12X20" - was found in a warehouse in Boston.
Wow - that was long! Thanx for viewing - again - like my games, this isn't a card - but I just wanted to add something different to our forum.
Mike
0
Comments
That was a fun read. Enjoyed the heck out of that. Thanks for sharing.
What I'm selling
Building Sets, Collecting Texas Rangers, and Texas Tech Red Raiders
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Leon, cool stuff. I have seen some of your stuff in the past on your board and you should post some of it here. Lots of collectors and observers would love it.
<< <i>Oh my gosh.....Thanks Maurice. Now I just need to do some resizing!! I appreciate it....and I don't want to hijack Stone's thread but I do love the tobacciana stuff. >>
Hiya Leon
Thanx!
No problem!
I want this to be an ongoing thread for anyone who wants to contribute to the subject - whether it be an item or information.
So - fire away!
More to come!
I like the fact that you have a Ramleh pack - they're on the rare side I believe. I do like the Turkey Red pack also. Thanx for sharing.
I'll be doing Egyptienne Straights next up.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Now up:
Egyptienne Straights Cigarettes - which were produced from 1902 to the mid 1950s - a division of the American Tobacco Co. - which survived the trust bust.
Let's start with a couple of packs - the first is dated around 1910 and the second - not sure - I can only tell you that it's after the 1940s based on a black light test - more on that later.
Note how pristine the 2nd pack is? Based on that - I would say this is one of the latest of their packs before discontinuation in the 50s:
I don't know enough about the subtle style changes to date the pack - but I've dated it newer than 1940 based on the fact that when a black light is placed on the box - it fluoresces - which will only happen on paper that's late 30s or newer due to the photo-brighteners that were placed in paper and material products in that time:
Notice how the older box on the right doesn't fluoresce - the camera did pick up on the fluorescing bleeding over to the older box - but you can see it's old stock...
My guess? At some point they started putting the tax stamp on the outside of the cellophane that enclosed the cigarette pack.
Let's go over to the Premiums connected with Egyptienne Straights.
I know of two major types - one is sports - the Silk Flags and 1914 B18 Felt Baseball Blankets:
I was able to pick up two different "Coupons" that reflect the promotions attached to the product:
Just think - for 3900 coupons - one can get a 14 karat gold watch!
If ya notice - the surrealistic female portrait - on the coupon - is also inside some of the packs:
and here's a cool "ad" piece that I picked up last year - notice how the frame has the product name - so it's all original - and there's the same image:
Here's a really cool photo from back in the early 1900s with a large "ad" for the product:
and here's a really cool "tin" ad sign that's on ebay - don't have the dough for it - the buyer picked it up off ebay and has been having all kinds of trouble selling it for a profit:
I'm taking a break for now on Egyptienne Straights - will add more later - I think this is enough for now.
Hope you like this addition! Thanx for viewing.
Thanks for taking the time to share
HINDU
Only known correct Hindu:
You can see it pictured in the advertisement here:
OBAK
Not that rare, but rare with the original card from inside:
TURKISH TROPHIES
Note rare, but rare with the original T3 redemption advertisement still on the front:
GYPSY QUEEN
Beautiful and ornate counter-top display box (would have held 20 packs):
OLD MILL
Unopened Old Mill:
LONE JACK
Original, full Lone Jack with original card:
I remember you posting on the Turkish Trophies - until then - I didn't know T3s could be gotten in other than Turkey Reds.
There's so much for me to learn - and there's always another day - thanx for sharing.
<< <i>Very cool Jon!
I remember you posting on the Turkish Trophies - until then - I didn't know T3s could be gotten in other than Turkey Reds.
There's so much for me to learn - and there's always another day - thanx for sharing. >>
Yup - the T3s, L1s and S81s could all be gotten with coupons packaged inside Turkish Trophies. This may shed a bit more light on it... talk about one of the BEST advertising pieces out there!
It's hard to post the last 2 days. Thought I would update this thread - it's been a while.
First, the fact that older packs routinely have no "tax stamp" led me to believe that the stamp was on a cellophane packing.
Here's two relatively new packs - each one has a stamp series 123 (123-102=21 + 1932) - which - using the formula - puts the packs at 1953.
I shrink wrapped these 2 packs due to the fact that the cellophane was very fragile and peeling.
More importantly - the stamps are on the pack and "not" the cellophane. So, if they did the same in the early 1900s? It must've been really easy to remove the stamp from the box - which - if true - is making it harder to "date" many packs to look for variations in printing and assigning it to a specific date.
Last - and consequently - I've found it easier to date packs by pictures in dated advertisements.
And that leads me to my Turkey Red pack I picked up back in May:
And my latest T3 - I think I'm at 27%
And here's one of my newer additions - I like sports related packs.
Plain 4 Bagger Tobacco - 1944
The baseball theme/graphics is what drew me to the pack. Unfortunately, there's no coupon or card connected with this company.
The tax stamp is series 114 (1932 started with series 102 - thus 1932 + 12 [114-102=12] = 1944)
At this point I can't find any info on Harvey's of Syracuse who make the product. Will add as I find.
The next one I've had for a 3 or 4 years.
Unfortunately the tax stamp was placed and then the outer sleeve was glued around the pack.
I've seen dates for these packs anywhere from the late 1800s to the early 1900s.
Honest Long Cut - Smoking and Chewing Tobacco
Factory No. 60, 2nd District, New York
So, you hold the pack in your hand? And you wonder. T205? T227?
Or some non-sport? I think they also had a boxing series?
Well, short of opening. I guess it's like Schrodinger's Cat - a card exists and doesn't at the time time - as long as I keep it closed. Thanx - again -Big Bang.
This is my last.
Mogul Egyptian Cigarettes - 1910
This is a high end product - I believe prominently in the NE - produced by S. Anargyros - a subsidiary of Lorillard and ultimately the American Tobacco Company.
What's cool is the fact that the College Leather is still attached to the back of the pack!
There's all kinds of non-sport insert cards and presidential silks.
The "leather" premiums are of the colleges and universities in the country.
Here's one of my alma mater - Columbia - it also has a basketball theme.
I find it immensely interesting how big inserts were at the turn of the century. The non-sport subjects were limitless.
I bought this last year.
This will not shake the rafters but I was happy to pick up this up.
Helmar Cigarette Carton
The problem? Can't date it? The packs lack the tax stamp to date it and I can't get enough information - yet anyways - on specific info like the factory stamp.
One thing tho. I can say that the carton and packs predate 1940 since they don't fluoresce under a black light - and neither does the carton in areas where the outer cardboard is missing - thus the paper lacks photo brighteners.
Do cigarettes have an expiration or can you smoke those bad boys?
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>Nice Mike! This may be a dumb question but I'll ask anyway
Do cigarettes have an expiration or can you smoke those bad boys? >>
I'm gonna have to defer to the cigarette smokers on that one Matt and thanx!
I'm guessing it would be like chewing the gum from a 52T pack?
<< <i>
<< <i>Nice Mike! This may be a dumb question but I'll ask anyway
Do cigarettes have an expiration or can you smoke those bad boys? >>
I'm gonna have to defer to the cigarette smokers on that one Matt and thanx!
I'm guessing it would be like chewing the gum from a 52T pack?
That's funny. I made the same comparison in my head when I asked the question haha. Not 52 packs but you get the idea.
I guess wine is the only thing that gets better with age.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
I'd smoke one of those
As an xsmoker I can say it doesn't take long for butts to go stale...
Matt I think cheese also gets better with age?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>
Matt I think cheese also gets better with age? >>
Probably the one exception being fromunda cheese.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Been a while since I updated this thread.
Last March, I picked up this framed ad from a board member who had a few of them.
T3 Turkey Red Advertising
As you can see, it's in an original frame that was sent to tobacco stores for the purpose of displaying.
Not sure if that can be cleaned. Was gonna look into it down the road.
And more recently I've got this really cool item for a fair price on eBay with a "premium" that was for the kids.
Favorite Chewing Tobacco
This is the rarer "free sample" pack which was endorsed on the package by Nellie Fox.
I'm gonna guess this pack was from around the late 50s/early 60s since Nellie was the AL MVP in '59 and Maz was ML Player of the Year in 1960.
Based on the style of the seal on the package, I'm guessing this is the original cellophane packaging.
Along with Fox are Luis Aparicio, "Rocky" Nelson, Tito Francona, Frank Thomas, Jim Lemon, Bill Mazeroski, Harvey Kuenn and Dick Donovan.
The "premium" is a cool notebook which is identical to the packaging (not the "free sample" kind).
Favorite Memo Book
Compliments of Taylor Brothers, Winston Salem, N.C.
Thought it cool they also had endorsement from FB.
I missed out on an advertising countertop piece a while back - went for too much for me.
It appears to have been used to house the notebooks - so when one took a free sample, they also were given one of the notebooks?
Some of these displays look so fresh looking - almost like they were reprinted?
And last - a present from one of our board members - ThreeTwocount - thanx Tony for this precious and rare pack...
Ramleh Cigarettes
If you look above, you'll see that Helmar was originally Ramleh but changed the name due to confusion with Ramly cigarettes.
Thanx for viewing everyone. Till next time.
edit: I apologize for some missing scans - will check and see if I can find them.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
This winter we're having the front of the house renovated and will include my back room - I'll be setting it up and then come the pics.
I'm looking forward to showing my personal "man cave."