Thinking about Thalers

LongNineteenthCentury

Hello All,

As a collector relatively new to the hobby, I have been drawn to the coins of Europe, 1600-1900, and especially Thalers, as a near- and long-term area of focus. The reasons are simple; the coins are beautiful, the historical connections are endlessly interesting, and there is ample differentiation/scarcity to feed the lusting.

Nevertheless, I have some questions for which i'd love to hear the opinions of other collectors:

1. I'm interested to hear opinions on collecting fractional Thalers. I'm not interested in the notion of collecting for fractions themselves, but the coins strike me as a way to collect "Thalers," pun intended, at a fraction of the cost. I recognize that there is no hard and fast rule, but i'm curious if collectors see fractionals (i.e. 1/2 and 2/3) as "real" Thalers or as a genre unto itself. Do most Thalers have fractional counterparts? If not always, are they usually less expensive? Do you find them less appealing in hand?

2. Is ma-shops the best place to purchase? My local coin shops are not world-coin specialists. I don't have the opportunity to attend shows all that often, and when I do, I feel a certain disadvantage vis-a-vis the dealer because I can't, on the spot, research global pricing, recent sales, scarcity, etc. Are there U.S. dealers with an online presence who you regularly trust with Thaler purchases?

3. For collectors who are more long in tooth, I'm curious as to how you have seen the market for Thalers develop over the years/decades. Has there been a general decline of interest in European coins while collectors have started to turn towards East Asian and the Middle Eastern coins? Has demand for Thalers followed this trend (which might be more imaginative than empirical) or have they remained relatively strong (just as most luxury items seem to have done during the past decade)?

I should mention that I have been lurking here during the past few months and have already gained much. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond.

ajaan

Fractional talers are great IMO. In some cases rarer than their big brother and just as nice. I would stick with 1/2 and 2/3 talers. Local ma-pa coin shops usually dont' carry talers. Most of them live or die on silver and gold. Northeast Numismatics carry certified talers, sometimes you can find fractional there. eBay is also a good source.

LongNineteenthCentury

Thanks ajaan. Seems like your interpretation of fractionals falls very much in line with mine. 1/48 through approximately 1/6 I see as small denomination coins while 2/3, 1/2, and perhaps 1/4 I see as, well, Thaler fractionals. Because I have not really begun to collect these in earnest yet, I was uncertain as to whether or not they "felt" like Thalers, in a complete a sense as possible. Sounds like you think they substitute nicely.

I am also in the Northeast (RI), but had not come across Northeast Numismatics (I am a recent transplant here). From a quick perusal of their webpage, they appear to have a great inventory. Thanks for letting me know.

Zohar

Welcome to the board. I have been at the Taler theme for 5 years or so and my interest has only grown since dumping my US collection and putting it right into these. I have seen prices rise consistently, yet not at the level of the emerging market coins, and I do believe some collector interest is coming from Asian and emerging market buyers. There are a few Taler collectors on this forum who can share their views.

Nothing beats a large silver coin, beautiful artistry and designs, along with owning a piece of European history.

A few recent pickups which perhaps emphasize this:

LongNineteenthCentury

Zohar, those coins are simply stunning. Each has a different shade of toning (the darkish hue in combination with the rainbow bands on the reverse of the Hall MS-62 is extraordinary). I had come across your webpage some weeks ago and was blown away by the depth of your collection. It seems like you have made a conscious decision to focus on Habsburg/Austro-Hungarian coins. Is this decision based on the aesthetics of the coins themselves? Perhaps a particular interest in Habsburg history? Something else? This kind of particularity strikes me as a difficult decision to make and to commit to. In my own experience, I seem to bounce from an interest in a particular German State(s) one day to another State or even region the next (Habsburg, Scandinavia, etc.). While this kind of strategy can work for minor coins, I fear that collecting Thalers demands a more specialized and region-specific approach.

Zohar

<< <i>Zohar, those coins are simply stunning. Each has a different shade of toning (the darkish hue in combination with the rainbow bands on the reverse of the Hall MS-62 is extraordinary). I had come across your webpage some weeks ago and was blown away by the depth of your collection. It seems like you have made a conscious decision to focus on Habsburg/Austro-Hungarian coins. Is this decision based on the aesthetics of the coins themselves? Perhaps a particular interest in Habsburg history? Something else? This kind of particularity strikes me as a difficult decision to make and to commit to. In my own experience, I seem to bounce from an interest in a particular German State(s) one day to another State or even region the next (Habsburg, Scandinavia, etc.). While this kind of strategy can work for minor coins, I fear that collecting Thalers demands a more specialized and region-specific approach. >>



Thank you very much. I selected the Habsburg theme for the broad history and impact on Europe and the world as we know it today. The series is well defined by emperor, mint and expanded to include Austrian States (Salzburg, Olmutz etc.). I find these Talers as appealing as the emperors of the time took great pride (having large egos) in the design work. Don't get me wrong I have branched out into other themes, yet have resolved to remain forcused in 2013

JCMhouston

I think fractionals are an excellent way to collect early world coins at generally lower prices. The talers are impressive coins, and bigger is better to the majority of collectors, so talers in general will sell for more than their fractional counterparts. That's with all things being equal of course. Keep in mind that the majority of world coins are not yet holdered, and my guess is that more fractionals are unholdered than their taler counterparts.

But with that being said fractionals often sell much lower than full talers and you may be getting a much scarcer coin for much less money. As an example the 1/3 Talers / Talers of Freidrick WIlhelm II of Prussia from the 1790's. The 1/3 Taler has no prices listed for uncirculated because they are actually very scarce in uncirculated, while the Taler values are listed in uncirculated and are available on a regular basis for $500-800. I recently bought the only slabbed uncirculated 1791 E 1/3 Taler for around $300, and there weren't many people bidding on it because people like the larger coins, an equivalent Taler which is much more common would have been twice the price.



If you can afford, and don't mind spending the money, the Talers they make a wonderful collection, just look at Z's. If you have a beer budget, like me, then look at the fractionals. There are exceptions of course where well known rare fractionals sell for more than the Taler version, but these are few and far between. As far as buying them auctions are the most common for me, even ebay now has a couple of well known German auction houses/dealers selling slabbed German coins. I also bid online with a couple of German auction houses.

LongNineteenthCentury

Thanks, JCMhouston. Nice Prussian 1/3 piece. Was the "E" mint mark for Dresden in the 1790s, as it would be about a century later, following unification? I am becoming convinced that fractionals are not simply lesser Thalers, but are in fact worthy of collecting in and of themselves. Of course, all coins appeal to one numismatist or another, but my fear had been that these fractionals were sort of in a nether-world between "real" minors and "real" Thalers.

I just spent some time perusing the 18th century Krause catalog. It struck me that German States Thalers (including fractionals) list, generally, at a premium over non-German States Thalers. There appear to be some exceptions, including Denmark and Sweden, but there are some really "cheap" Thaler and Thaler-equivalents in surprising places; Austria, the Netherlands, Croatia (Ragusa), etc. No particular question here, just something that jumped off the page to me.

Analyst

1) JCMHouston: << ... fractionals often sell much lower than full talers and you may be getting a much scarcer coin for much less money.>>

I agree. Fractionals are often better values, from a logical perspective. It does not make sense to assume that bigger coins are necessarily more desirable. In the field of U.S. coins, the 1870-S half dime, at least three 1792 half dismes, a few dimes, and at least three quarters are all worth more than one million dollars each, as are all five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

2) Before learning about grading and learning which dealers to trust, buying PCGS certified European coins would involve much less risk than buying not certified European coins.

3) In recent articles, I discuss world coins that have sold or will be sold at auction. It is best to hire an expert for assistance before spending substantial sums at auction.

Auctions in March

European Gold Shines in World Coin Auction

insightful10 gmail

coinlieutenant

Welcome to the boards.

Few thoughts:

1. Collect what you like. If you like thalers better, then I would collect those. If you like the fractionals, go for them.
2. Regarding the price, watch auctions and track results on your own in the subseries that you prefer. A great site is sixbid.com
3. Buy the book before you buy the coins
4. Find a dealer to represent you at auction. You can find nice foreign here in the states, but you will miss out on a lot if you don't have the ability to bid over there.
5. Krause is a good reference, but it has major issues.

Enjoy!

John

EVillageProwler

Heed the words of coinlieutenant.

I collect pretty much anything that catches my fancy, but I do tend to like crown-sized pieces as well as fractionals. The fractionals are, by comparison to the crown-sized (and larger) pieces truly much less expensive.

Here are two:

The first is a Salzburg 1/2T, graded MS65. If it were a full Thaler, then it'd be worth ~ $1800 in MS62. They are very hard to find in higher grades, so I won't guess at a price at the gem level. But for my 1/2T, I paid less than $2000.



The second is an Imperial 1/4T, from the Hall mint and graded MS64. If this were a full Thaler, it'd be worth ~ $2500 in MS64. I paid well less than $1000.

Zohar

Very nice as always EVP - and great imaging to boot.

I have a few other fractional pieces that I very much like. Note that these were more heavily circulated given reduced value compared to the crown size making them more of a challenge to find in nice condition.

LongNineteenthCentury

Thanks everbody for all of the wonderful ideas, suggestions, and beautiful photos. I am more excited than ever to expand my collecting beyond pfennig and kreuzer coins into these larger pieces. Your thoughts (and the images of the coins!) have pushed me over the edge, so to speak, in wanting to walk this route. Glancing through the Kuenker auction catalog was quite a treat, especially the enormous selection of Rhineland coins. I will be paying close attention to how that proceeds next week. Thanks, Analyst, for sharing your write-up on upcoming auctions.

Thanks, and Cheers All!

kevin

EVillageProwler

Thanks, Z. Yours are great too. Btw, TomB did my images.

Long19C - I guess you're hearing that we like the 1/4-sized crowns and up because they are large enough. Anything smaller just has too much of a different feel.

Again, heed the advice of CoinLT. Education is key. If you got the bug and your only real cure now is to buy something, then buying books, catalogs and fractional crowns is a good start. And, always buy the coins that look original, or crusty, or lively, or have nice eye appeal. Best to go with coins slabbed by a reputable TPG. And, feel free to ask questions here or across the street.

Happy hunting!

EVP

EVillageProwler

Long19C/Kevin - some more advice: get the Krause catalogs, and get an account on HA.com. Both allow you to get pricing data. HA.com, especially, has good archival information to allow you to determine recent comparables.

EVP

Zohar

As well as LINK for European auction houses.

DorkGirl

LongNineteenthCentury

Thanks for the welcome, DorkGirl (a descriptor which might be redundant on a board of coin collectors) .

EVP and Zohar, i've been cruising around the auction sites checking out some recent results on coins that i'm interested in. What a great tool to have. One quick question: While mcsearch is great for reviewing auction results, it does not compile a list of upcoming auctions (as far as i can tell). Is there a site which includes an upcoming auction calendar? Thanks again.

kevin

EVillageProwler

Long19C - didn't I tell you to heed the words of CoinLT?

He recommended this site: sixbid.com

EVP

LongNineteenthCentury

Ha! Indeed you did tell me to heed the words of the Lieutenant. I somehow overlooked his comment about sixbid. Thanks for (re)-pointing it out. And apologies to the Lieutenant for letting his efforts go to waste.

coinlieutenant

Ha. No worries. Just don't start collecting these type of talers. WAY too late for your tastes. Plus, they glorify guns....and in this political environment, guns are just NOT COOL.

Zohar

CLT - what a tease! The 1842 is one of the finest specimens I have seen. Thanks for posting this.

EVillageProwler

Nasty shooting talers. How un-cool.

WorldTypeSet

I like Thalers ... 1645 Augsburg Thaler


1854 Brunswick-Wolfenbuttle Thaler


And fractional Thalers of all denominations ... 1774 Bern 1/4 Thaler


1845 Hannover 1/6 Thaler


1847 Hannover 1/12 Thaler


1753 Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg 1/24 Thaler

coinlieutenant

Wow. Those are great....as is the type set PBRat

MacCrimmon

<< <i>Wow. Those are great....as is the type set PBRat >>







Anyone else notice that Coinfacts is now linking to TrueView images/coin data?

marcmoish

CL that 1842 mustve earned a u suck if not... u suck!!!..or perhaps a double suck is in order here?

as for Z's PAAR piece that's mine he's just watching it for me whatever

truth be told these are all beautiful examples here above period......hey Long welcome....been into fractional Talers too for abit now so I can tell you its fun, and rather expensive as mentioned above many 1/2 or 2/3's are costlier than there parents..1/4's are adorable and less expensive..... but regardless I think we all agree you should stay away and collect the coinage of Micronesia for example.

Enjoy



edited to add PB I luv that Augsburg ..what grade is it?

LongNineteenthCentury

...wow, these coins all look great. CoinLieutenant, the Shooting Thalers are fascinating. I've been looking at some German examples from the 1860s, but the Swiss certainly set the bar high. PBrat, that's a nice collection of fractionals...a great indicator that these kinds of coins can make a wonderful collection.

Marcmoish, you have nothing to fear from me (unfortunately!). At this point, i'm still doing more dreaming than buying. In fact, I went to a coin show this morning (Dedham, MA). Pickings were fairly slim as the majority of tables were stamp dealers (total of 28 tables, less than 10 of which were coin oriented). Actually left the show with most of my cash still in hand. My best pick-up was a Sweden 1907 2 kronor, 50 yr. wedding anniversary commemorative. Though raw and circulated, the detail, especially on the reverse, is still rather nice.

worldcoinguy

Welcome to the boards LongNineteenthCentury! Good to see more taler interest. I have a particular interest in the sede vacante variety german states material, but my focus is often sidetracked by impulse buys.

theboz11

Be sure to get a book on Large silver coins by Davenport . I have a couple to show, Not much.

lordmarcovan

Welcome!

I think fractional thalers can pack a lot of bang for the buck.

I've had a few pieces, here and there, but have yet to really delve into them as a theme.

LongNineteenthCentury

Worldcoinguy, that is one of the most interesting and clever ideas for a collection theme that I have seen. In addition to enjoying the coins themselves, I learned some valuable history from your collection. I was under the impression that Sede Vacante coins were only issued for an empty Papal seat. I did not realize that Sede Vacante also referred to the States' bishopric positions. In addition, I was surprised to see some Sede Vacante coins from Imperial free cities, such as Lubeck (where there was no local prince-bishop). Of course, as I learned from viewing your collection, these coins were in fact commemorating the actual Papal/Holy Roman Empire seat.

Nice coins, Boz11. I almost pulled the trigger on a Davenport book on Amazon. However, because i'm lucky enough to have access to a large university library, i think i'll just do it the old-fashioned way...checking the book out from circulation!

Thanks for the welcome, Marcovan.

lordmarcovan

I have the Davenport "Large Size Silver Coins" book like this.

I don't use it. It's like new. Would sell at a friendly price, or swap it.

LongNineteenthCentury

Many thanks for your kind offer, Marcovan. However, i'm going to stick with library copies for the moment. I really do appreciate the opportunity though.

Best,

kevin