Is Fritsch as reliable as BBCE?

ClockworkAngel

I had never really heard of Fritsch until all the recent threads. He has a lot of nice unopened material as well. I am wondering if it is as reliable to be authentic and has as good a reputation as BBCE?

MrSnuffleupagus

Their stuff is as authentic as it gets!

Dboneesq

They are the original buyer from Topps on most all of their stuff ... INCLUDING the 60s and 70s.

JoeBanzai

Larry had a relationship with Topps, they would often call him and sell him their "last years stock" for next to nothing. The only problem I ever had with Fritsch was his prices.

Did manage to buy some items (not unopened product though) and was satisfied with the transaction.

Joe

grote15

Rock solid and beyond question 100% legitimate for unopened product. Problem is they charge top dollar and will even raise prices when you try and order depending on what they call "market conditions."

zurbs17

Can someone post a link to his site please?

Dodgerfanjohn

<< <i>Can someone post a link to his site please? >>



Larry Fritsch

You'll find much of the unopened stuff when you download the catalog.

gemint

It would be interesting to hear experiences of people who bought from them recently. Most of the feedback I got wasn't stellar. A 1971 vending box that yielded little and a 1974 'virtually untouched' set that was full of miscuts. I placed an order for a 1973 set then later cancelled it after talking to them and hearing about the '74 set. My impression was the sets were built in the year issued and put away. That's not the case. They build the sets to order. So they pull cards from vending or bulk boxes of sorted cards. So my guess is the better cards were used to build sets in the 70s and 80s and now they're down to the lower quality cards with more OC and miscuts. That's why they reduced their description from NM or better to EX-MT or better.

I'd be interested in hearing others' perspectives.

MiniDuff

Thanks for that heads up. I was reading the catalog last night and wondering about the sets. That explains it.

JMDVM

Ordering individual cards is crazy. You have to provide a list with "back ups" in case they don't have the cards on your want list. And you have to send a deposit. Plus there is a restocking fee for returns. Their operation is not computerized.

footlong

sets before 1974 were built from vending. anyone who's opened vending from that era knows you get some miscuts, rough edges, diamond cuts, etc. you either cull them out or use them.

gemint

<< <i>sets before 1974 were built from vending. anyone who's opened vending from that era knows you get some miscuts, rough edges, diamond cuts, etc. you either cull them out or use them. >>



Of course this is always the case with vintage vending. However, the feedback i got was the majority of cards were OC or worse and not submittable. You would expect at least 30% of a complete set to be submittable for a randomly build vintage set. The 1973 set I won off eBay several years ago was ordered in the year of issue and truly untouched. The corners were razor sharp and about 60% of the cards were well centered (65-35 or better).

itzagoner

with Fritsch you get The Flintstones.

BBCE is The Jetsons.

handyman

Fritsch has good stuff. But he doesnt beat BBCE or even come close.
Steve wont raise the price on you just because you called asking for a hot product, Steve will also include star packs in boxes you buy. Steve is 10x better if you ask me.
Nothing againts Fritsch, its just I feel steve has better product all around.

ChiefsFan1st

Maybe someone here can tell me what im missing. When I look at his site, all I see
is modern unopened(except for a few graded packs) What gives?

ClockworkAngel

<< <i>Maybe someone here can tell me what im missing. When I look at his site, all I see
is modern unopened(except for a few graded packs) What gives? >>



Yes, the web site is not user friendly at all. In fact, I'll go as far as to say it sucks.

It wasn't until I opened up his catalog that I saw some of the vintage unopened everyone is talking about. And it's randomly scattered throughout the catalog with no rhyme or reason. Kind of like a "Find Waldo", except with Fritsch he does "Find the 1973 cello box" amongst the mediocre stuff

mygotta

<< <i>

<< <i>Maybe someone here can tell me what im missing. When I look at his site, all I see
is modern unopened(except for a few graded packs) What gives? >>



Yes, the web site is not user friendly at all. In fact, I'll go as far as to say it sucks.

It wasn't until I opened up his catalog that I saw some of the vintage unopened everyone is talking about. And it's randomly scattered throughout the catalog with no rhyme or reason. Kind of like a "Find Waldo", except with Fritsch he does "Find the 1973 cello box" amongst the mediocre stuff >>



I agree. As good as his products might seem, his website is about as antiquated as craigslist. It only seems to show off single cards and modern stuff. Not much in the way of unopened material. The PDF magazine you can download shows more stuff than the website. But as everyone says, I am sure they are all priced different than by the time you call to make a purchase. In all, it sounds like a frustrating operation, even if the goods are there. Not one person has all the knowledge, and they are riding on their name more than their service.

grote15

Another problem is that they don't take down sold packs. They still have listed for sale packs on the sute that sold months ago.

calgarycollector

The part that bothers me is one page of the catalog is selling 75 cello boxes while the next is selling all sorts of 75 cellos with stars on front/back. I would think it's awfully tempting to move some from column A into column B

DCanfield

<< <i>Rock solid and beyond question 100% legitimate for unopened product. Problem is they charge top dollar and will even raise prices when you try and order depending on what they call "market conditions." >>



They are already quoting a $3500 Ebay auction price that was achieved this week to justify raising prices on 1973 series 4 boxes ("those market conditions"). As BTO said "You ain't seen nothing yet"!!!

zurbs17

Yeah that website stinks but it does have a section that I really wish BBCE had: new items. Whenever I go to BBCE and see the number has increased beside Football unopened or Hockey unopened I have to try and figure out what has been added. Would be much easier if it was also listed under a new items link.

handyman

"They are already quoting a $3500 Ebay auction price that was achieved this week to justify raising prices on 1973 series 4 boxes ("those market conditions"). As BTO said "You ain't seen nothing yet"!!! "

And he will only go by the highest price sold period. I called him several months ago right after a HA auction of a 1972 Fb Series 2 box sold for 2250 1972 box . I think that was what his price was at the time as well. He then said let me check if i have one(lol!! I bet you do, or let me check the internest sales.) He then says 2750.00 But you magazine I just got and it says 2500. And we all know its 3000 acording to the mag today. But I bet if you call it will be 3200 or something higher. And I dont know for sure but I think he uses HA to sell some of his boxes. When the 1972 went for 2250 they had 1 of each of the same stuff he curently has. So I thought it was him selling them. I know he has been using them for the last few years when he sold a large chunk of vending with them. SO I felt he know it just sold for 2250 not including his fees, so about 2000.00 in all. So its very annoying if you go by his guide or whatever he has on webpage. I dont look anymore at his stuff.
Also how many packs does he think comes in a 1980-81 Topps BK box. Wish he would fix that, or you may just get 24 packs at that price.

calgarycollector

So to buy boxes you have to call and haggle direct, no simple add to cart? I see some of his packs on ebay but no boxes.

I noticed that 24 pack basketball box to!

handyman

no haggling. Its what he says it is that min of the day

olb31

<< <i>Frisch has been around for decades. I'm 44 and bought from their catalog when I was a kid. >>



Me too. I ordered over 25 cards from him and Renata Galasso (Sp). They were very dependable. Ordered alot of 70's football sets.

MULLINS5

I ordered from a couple dealers in Canada via mail-in and the experience was a lot of fun and a breath of fresh air compared to having to scour through online websites.

Nothing against BBCE. They've been nothing but great to me and an overwhelmingly amount of people on this board, but buyers don't know the history of their unopened product. They can say they bought it from a guy who had it in storage, or whatever, but we don't know if the guy is the original buyer, how many times the product changed hands, was dropped, moved around in the boxes/cases, et cetera.

Now, buying a box from Fritsch seems to be different in that if he purchased the product directly from Topps then that's like you walking into our local dealer in Feb. 2013 and buying a box of baseball cards from the 70's directly from the manufacturer. To me there should be a premium in that.

And prices change everyday, I know it's frustrating but can't fault the guy for changing his regularly too.

Patrick

mygotta

<< <i>I ordered from a couple dealers in Canada via mail-in and the experience was a lot of fun and a breath of fresh air compared to having to scour through online websites.

Nothing against BBCE. They've been nothing but great to me and an overwhelmingly amount of people on this board, but buyers don't know the history of their unopened product. They can say they bought it from a guy who had it in storage, or whatever, but we don't know if the guy is the original buyer, how many times the product changed hands, was dropped, moved around in the boxes/cases, et cetera.

Now, buying a box from Fritsch seems to be different in that if he purchased the product directly from Topps then that's like you walking into our local dealer in Feb. 2013 and buying a box of baseball cards from the 70's directly from the manufacturer. To me there should be a premium in that.

And prices change everyday, I know it's frustrating but can't fault the guy for changing his regularly too.

Patrick >>



I could fault him. Don't put out a catalog with prices. Its simple as that. "Call for prices and availability" would be much more professional and less off-putting for your customers. If you are going to put prices down, then honor them. Or only sell what you want to sell at said prices. Its really about honoring your prices and not being tactless. If they have premium product and its untouched, then yes, by all means, charge top dollar. But dont advertise one thing and say another. I think its bad business, personally.

ClockworkAngel

<< <i>I ordered from a couple dealers in Canada via mail-in and the experience was a lot of fun and a breath of fresh air compared to having to scour through online websites.

Nothing against BBCE. They've been nothing but great to me and an overwhelmingly amount of people on this board, but buyers don't know the history of their unopened product. They can say they bought it from a guy who had it in storage, or whatever, but we don't know if the guy is the original buyer, how many times the product changed hands, was dropped, moved around in the boxes/cases, et cetera.

Now, buying a box from Fritsch seems to be different in that if he purchased the product directly from Topps then that's like you walking into our local dealer in Feb. 2013 and buying a box of baseball cards from the 70's directly from the manufacturer. To me there should be a premium in that.

And prices change everyday, I know it's frustrating but can't fault the guy for changing his regularly too.

Patrick >>



I hear what you're saying, but what we know about BBCE is:

A. There is no one better in terms of honesty, integrity, and taking care of his customers
B. He is perhaps THE best authenticator going. Has he ever been wrong? Maybe. But the mere fact that PSA enlisted him to authenticate speaks volumes.

Regarding Fritsch, yes, apparently it's a given that all his stuff is directly from Topps, but is it with 100% certainty? Do we know for sure everything we ever buy from him is in that original batch? I don't think he's any more of a sure thing than BBCE

handyman

"
I could fault him. Don't put out a catalog with prices. Its simple as that. "Call for prices and availability" would be much more professional and less off-putting for your customers. If you are going to put prices down, then honor them. Or only sell what you want to sell at said prices. Its really about honoring your prices and not being tactless. If they have premium product and its untouched, then yes, by all means, charge top dollar. But dont advertise one thing and say another. I think its bad business, personally."

This +1
He makes it feel like because you are showing interest he can add on another 10% just bc you had to call about it. The let me check and see if I have one. We all know what the answer is. So what is he really doing? Looking up my area code to see what the common/average salary is? Who knows but it doesnt feel right. I agree with the comment above.

gemint

<< <i>I ordered from a couple dealers in Canada via mail-in and the experience was a lot of fun and a breath of fresh air compared to having to scour through online websites.

Nothing against BBCE. They've been nothing but great to me and an overwhelmingly amount of people on this board, but buyers don't know the history of their unopened product. They can say they bought it from a guy who had it in storage, or whatever, but we don't know if the guy is the original buyer, how many times the product changed hands, was dropped, moved around in the boxes/cases, et cetera.

Now, buying a box from Fritsch seems to be different in that if he purchased the product directly from Topps then that's like you walking into our local dealer in Feb. 2013 and buying a box of baseball cards from the 70's directly from the manufacturer. To me there should be a premium in that.

And prices change everyday, I know it's frustrating but can't fault the guy for changing his regularly too.

Patrick >>



I don't think you can bank on the cards being as they arrived directly from the manufacturer in the 70s. As I mentioned earlier, their "untouched" sets are apparently build from stock that's been moved around and picked from over the years. So yes, the cards did come directly from Topps and yes they have been owned by Fritsch since the year of issue. However, it's not like you're getting pack fresh cards that have not been picked through over the years. You also can't be guaranteed that any boxes you get haven't had star packs pulled from them. That's not to say they are not truthfully describing their product. It's just their price levels are higher than what I would pay for EX-MT sets or rifled through boxes.

DCanfield

<< <i>

<< <i>Rock solid and beyond question 100% legitimate for unopened product. Problem is they charge top dollar and will even raise prices when you try and order depending on what they call "market conditions." >>



They are already quoting a $3500 Ebay auction price that was achieved this week to justify raising prices on 1973 series 4 boxes ("those market conditions"). As BTO said "You ain't seen nothing yet"!!! >>



So last night Probstein123 sold a 1975 cello box "purchased directly from Larry Fritsch" on ebay for $2750. Fritsch cards has it in their catalog for $3000. So I guessing today they'll be dropping their price!! My parents always told me to dream big. Trouble is, this is a fantasy.

DCanfield

Now, as much as I'm complaining because the price seems to be fluid based on one overbid ebay auction and it's more than I am willing to pay, I can't fault them. It's a case of "I have it - You want it - Here's my price. You don't like my price than don't buy since I'll find some one else that will pay my price". That's free enterprise. I guess I have a certain amount of envy because I'm not in that position.
Doug

purelyPSA

What everyone is saying about the Fritsch's is spot on. They bought it all back when Larry first started the business. The whole sorted set thing, though, isn't as straightforward as that.

I bought the 74 set Gemint is referring to. And he is right, they sort individual sets, they don't have a bunch sitting around pre-sorted from years past.

It was, in my opinion, atrocious - at least depending on what I thought I was getting. It's interesting that they trumpet the whole 'we took our stuff straight from vending boxes that we bought from Topps' angle, but then say 'our sets are EXMT to NM due to the inherent flaws and centering due to the vending' or whatever their disclaimer is.

So I was willing to accept the mixed bag - I figured there'd be a lot, numbered even in the hundreds, that would not be of the quality I was hoping for. I knew that going in. What I found was this: ALL star cards (save for one) were off center worse than 60/40 and over half were 70/30 or worse. On top of that, virtually every common that was centered had a small nick or ding, meaning that it'd likely not get higher than an 8 when submitted. However, over half of the few hundred cards that I got that were centered worse than 60/40 were otherwise gem mint edgewise and cornerwise. Now that can't be a coincidence - the only conclusion I can draw is that their items have been gone over by someone beforehand. Otherwise, I'd have gotten a nice smattering of centered and sharp cards, even if they were all Doug Birds and Larry Dierkers, but there weren't any.

Now, was it exmt-nm? I'd say so. I didn't get anything that was worse than exmt other than the Mays World series card, which had a half inch slice across the face of it. But I think them harping on the 'vending box freshness' of their items is a sort of code phrase that sets up an expectation for finding cards better than that. This would be a mistake, because that's the ceiling as much as the floor.

Oddly, the one card I thought that would qualify for a 9 that I DID get was a Dave Parker rookie that I think is worthy of a 10. It was like finding Kate Upton at a Comic-Con convention, it was so out of place. I haven't submitted it yet but I will, and I might bust it out a couple of times if they don't agree, because I cannot find anything wrong with it whatsoever. The funny thing is that one card in a 10 would salvage the whole purchase, because otherwise I spent $510 on a set you can find on eBay any day of the week for $170.

So that's my opinion. What you'd be better served to do if you wanted to spend $500 on a top set like the '74 would be to buy three NMMT ones on eBay, rifle through them and make the best set you can get, and sell the other two, since that'd cost about the same and your set would be dynamite.

1all

Until someone can confirm that they purchased a Cello or Rack box (or 72 fb for that matter) with stars showing on top, I have to assume the packs are picked through. I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

Wait, I stand corrected, that 75 Fritsch box that Probstein sold yesterday had a tiny picture of Frank Robinson on the front of one pack!

handyman

Agree. I also didnt see that many centered showing on top. But thats how that set is I guess.

BaltimoreYankee

The weird thing with that 75 cello box sale is one just sold on eBay for cheaper with every pack PSA graded and including packs with Ryan and Reggie Jackson on top.

gemint

Thanks for detailing your '74 set experiences Steve. That was one reason I cancelled my '73 set order. They told me by phone when I ordered it that it would take them a few weeks to build it because they were finishing their catalog updates. That made me nervous because I had thought the sets were built back in the day and sitting there waiting to be bought. Then after hearing your experience, I called them back a month after my order. They still hadn't built it yet so I was able to cancel the order. Glad I did. I just paid $1150 for a 1973 set on eBay which is more than Fritsch charges. Even though the set I got has worse than typical centering, there are at least still a fair amount of centered commons and centered star cards. I'd rather pay $1100 for a set that was rarely handled and randomly built than pay $950 for a set with 90% of the cards poorly centered.

Good luck with the Parker. Did you submit the Ryan yet? You had mentioned that looked like it had 8 potential.


Edited to add, I agree with your statement about misleading descriptions. The 'virtually untouched directly from the factory' statement would mislead people into thinking they are getting sets with a quality distribution similar to opening a vintage pack or vending box from that era. That doesn't seem to be the case though. If every card is either O/C or dinged, then it doesn't represent typical factory quality distribution of the era. They do cover themselves with the 'EX/MT or better' description but most people would think that's just to cover themselves for the percentage of the cards that have quality defects. A more accurate description might be 'EX/MT and no better'.

1all

<< <i>The weird thing with that 75 cello box sale is one just sold on eBay for cheaper with every pack PSA graded and including packs with Ryan and Reggie Jackson on top. >>



Yea, I noticed that too. But, that graded one was a Mini box while the Fritsch one was full size. Still, for *those* packs $2750 is STEEP. The clients that buy from Rick have got deep pockets.

footlong

on the 1974 sets. i'm sure someone on here has purchased a factory set that topps put out for j.c penney, sears,etc. how do these sets compare condition- wise to sets made from vending? just wondering.

purelyPSA

John - not yet, it's still sitting in a Card Saver. But I'll be sending it in here probably this week, along with the Parker. I'll shoot you a PM over on the other side when I get my grades.

I didn't find the Parker until I went through everything a second time, after I told you about the set originally. Was pretty shocked, let me tell you.

grote15

<< <i>The weird thing with that 75 cello box sale is one just sold on eBay for cheaper with every pack PSA graded and including packs with Ryan and Reggie Jackson on top. >>



Even weirder is that i can recall years ago when 75 mini cellos commanded a fairly significant premium over regular size 75 cellos due to their relative scracity.

cpamike

<< <i>

<< <i>The weird thing with that 75 cello box sale is one just sold on eBay for cheaper with every pack PSA graded and including packs with Ryan and Reggie Jackson on top. >>



Even weirder is that i can recall years ago when 75 mini cellos commanded a fairly significant premium over regular size 75 cellos due to their relative scracity. >>



Tim, that box seemed like a fair price to me...surprised it didn't end up in the GroteVault.

grote15

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>The weird thing with that 75 cello box sale is one just sold on eBay for cheaper with every pack PSA graded and including packs with Ryan and Reggie Jackson on top. >>



Even weirder is that i can recall years ago when 75 mini cellos commanded a fairly significant premium over regular size 75 cellos due to their relative scracity. >>



Tim, that box seemed like a fair price to me...surprised it didn't end up in the GroteVault. >>



I would have if I didn't have two already ..

KbKards

What everyone is saying about the Fritsch's is spot on. They bought it all back when Larry first started the business. The whole sorted set thing, though, isn't as straightforward as that.

I bought the 74 set Gemint is referring to. And he is right, they sort individual sets, they don't have a bunch sitting around pre-sorted from years past.

It was, in my opinion, atrocious - at least depending on what I thought I was getting. It's interesting that they trumpet the whole 'we took our stuff straight from vending boxes that we bought from Topps' angle, but then say 'our sets are EXMT to NM due to the inherent flaws and centering due to the vending' or whatever their disclaimer is.

So I was willing to accept the mixed bag - I figured there'd be a lot, numbered even in the hundreds, that would not be of the quality I was hoping for. I knew that going in. What I found was this: ALL star cards (save for one) were off center worse than 60/40 and over half were 70/30 or worse. On top of that, virtually every common that was centered had a small nick or ding, meaning that it'd likely not get higher than an 8 when submitted. However, over half of the few hundred cards that I got that were centered worse than 60/40 were otherwise gem mint edgewise and cornerwise. Now that can't be a coincidence - the only conclusion I can draw is that their items have been gone over by someone beforehand. Otherwise, I'd have gotten a nice smattering of centered and sharp cards, even if they were all Doug Birds and Larry Dierkers, but there weren't any.

Now, was it exmt-nm? I'd say so. I didn't get anything that was worse than exmt other than the Mays World series card, which had a half inch slice across the face of it. But I think them harping on the 'vending box freshness' of their items is a sort of code phrase that sets up an expectation for finding cards better than that. This would be a mistake, because that's the ceiling as much as the floor.


Let me get this straight. You buy a 1974 set advertised as EXMT-NM. This means that the cards in the set should fall into the PSA 6 to PSA 7 grade range and a PSA 7 card can be up to 75/25 off center.

You then state the following about the cards in the set.
1) ALL star cards (save for one) were off center worse than 60/40 and over half were 70/30 or worse.
2) Virtually every common that was centered had a small nick or ding, meaning that it'd likely not get higher than an 8 when submitted.
3) Over half of the few hundred cards that I got that were centered worse than 60/40 were otherwise gem mint edgewise and cornerwise.
4) Now, was it exmt-nm? I'd say so. I didn't get anything that was worse than exmt other than the Mays World series card.


From your description of the cards in the EXMT-NM set you purchased you got exactly what was advertised. But you called it atrocious because you were hoping that the cards were going to be nicer than the 6-7 range advertised. You complain that every common centered worse than 60/40 was gem mint otherwise, and every centered common had a small nick or ding and wouldn't likely get higher than an 8 when submitted. So even getting grades of 8 on cards advertised as 6-7 makes it an atrocious deal.


So BUYER BEWARE! Don't buy EXMT-NM sets and expect cards to grade PSA 8-9-10.

Also the reason they grade a set EXMT-NM is because that's what vending or unopened packs typically contain when subjected to critical new professional grading standards. They put EXMT-NM on their sets in the hope it will scare off the mint graded card buyers.

Treetop

here is a link to the 1971 vending box discussion


link tio 1971 vending box discussion

gemint

KB, You have a point. Even Steve said technically the set is as advertised (from the EX-MT or better perspective). However, the whole schpeel about the sets being virtually untouched from the year of issue is misleading. If the cards have been rifled through over the years to build sets, they've had a fair amount of handling. They set up a reasonable expectation that you would get a set with a typical factory distribution. Seriously, would anyone pay $500 for a strictly EX-MT 1974 set? You can buy them all day long for less than half that price elsewhere. Even a professionally graded NM-MT set is only about $3500, including all the grading fees. So I think they count on the 'untouched' angle to encourage buyers to pay way over market price for these sets.

I think the comment from Steve is just fair warning to anyone else thinking of purchasing those sets at those prices. Mark's comment about the 1971 vending box is also fair warning to anyone thinking of dropping $18k for their 1st series vending box.

purelyPSA

You know KB, I was about to concede your point until your last statement. The whole 'they put the exmt/nm grade' to scare away the Mint buyers is 100% the opposite of the conclusion I made, seconded by Gemint. They continually trumpet the whole 'untouched vending thing' and then say 'we grade the set exmt/nm due to inherent cutting and centering flaws' in order to get people to bite on their very, very overpriced items.

Gemint and I are far from the only people to draw this conclusion.

gemint

Also, here is the exact wording of the sets:

These cards have been virtually untouched by human hands, although printing and cutting flaws do exist. We grade these cards in at least excellent-mint to near-mint condition.

'At least' being the operative word. There's a reasonable expectation on the buyer's part that these cards are randomly pulled from factory fresh stock. I've never, ever seen a set built in the 70s and put away that had almost 100% of the cards being lower than NM-MT condition.

bbuckner22

If you are buying untouched, unhandled sets from Fritsch you can be assured that ALL of the mint centered cards have been cherry picked out.

gemint

<< <i>If you are buying untouched, unhandled sets from Fritsch you can be assured that ALL of the mint centered cards have been cherry picked out. >>



Even the ones that sell for $5 in PSA 9 NQ grade.

handyman

How do you think those 5.00 PSA 9 NQ card became high pops and only worth 5.00 today?! LOL