1993 Finest was 4000 cases (12 boxes each), how many cases of 1993 Flair? (Happy 30th anniversary!)

Estil

Okay, first off a happy 20th Anniversary (2023 edit: Now 30th!!) to both 1993 Finest and 1993 Flair, the first true super premium cards ever. Now as most here know, 1993 Finest's main claim to fame is its Refractors, which to this day remain one of the most legendary card sets ever. But a close second to the claim to fame department is that it was the first set where the production was made public: 4,000 cases, with 12 boxes each, 18 (or 24?) packs per box, and 6/7 (?) cards per pack.

But what about "that other super premium set", 1993 Flair? I may have figured out a way to figure out the approximate production run:

* According to the 1993 Ultra ad, there were 2,000 Eckersley autograph cards seeded in Ultra packs, and the odds of pulling one were 1:25,000. So 25,000 x 2,000 makes 50,000,000 packs of Ultra, and at 14 cards per pack, makes 700,000,000 Ultra cards in all.

* In the 1993 Flair ad, it advertised that it was limited to 15% of Ultra, just like how 1991 Ultra was announced as being 15% of regular Fleer. So 700,000,000 Ultra cards x .15 makes for 105,000,000 Flair cards.

* Now the way Flair was packaged was in 10 card packs, which would be 10,500,000 packs, then divided by 24 packs per box makes 437,000 boxes, divided by 20 boxes per case is about 21,875 cases. All these figures are approximate and don't take the inserts into consideration of course.

So as beautiful and attractive as the 1993 Flair set is in its own right, if they made over five times as many cases as 1993 Finest, and the cases had 20 boxes versus 12, and 10 cards a pack versus 6 or 7, then I guess it's no wonder 1993 Flair never did get as much love as the legendary 1993 Finest.

Does my math sound about right? I know this may seem like a silly topic but considering how huge a deal it was for 1993 Finest to have its production numbers made public (before that time, production numbers of cards were even more top secret than nuclear missile launch codes!), doesn't it stand to reason to be curious as to what the production of its only real competitor (1993 Flair) was in comparison?

PS: For those curious, this makes for approximately 1,076,923 Ultra sets (650) and 350,000 sets of Flair (300)

EDIT: Wow!! Now we're already at the 30th/pearl anniversary of the first two super premium card baseball card sets in all of baseball card history??? Where does the time go???

ydapd

your math sounds right . I'd say 93 SP was a bigger competitor to Finest than Flair was though.

Estil

<< <i>your math sounds right . I'd say 93 SP was a bigger competitor to Finest than Flair was though. >>



I disagree. The set was no different than Ultra or Leaf in terms of production quality--it had UV coating on both sides and a small copper (instead of the usual gold) foil stamped logo (on most of the cards). Whereas Flair (twice as thick and very glossy on both sides with six color printing) and Finest (shiny chrome-like foil front) were the true super premium sets. In fact I don't think Upper Deck made their first true super premium set until 1996 SPx.

CNote

I know the refractors were hot stuff, but I never thought the base Finest set was anything great.

calgarycollector

I agree back in the day (has it been 20 years!) Flair was mind blowing, SP overlooked. How excited I got with each pack to get a Wave of the Future Piazza, Erstad or Jim Edmonds. Maybe I'm blending in 94 as well.

#'s seem about right based on your math. Only 2000 Eck autos, and my unicorn as a kid was the 5000 run Pro Set Stanley Cup Hologram.

Aric

My take is that when they say 15% of the production of Ultra they mean per card.

If there are 700,000,000 ultra and 650 in the set then there are roughly 1,000,000 of each Ultra base card.

If Flair was 15% of the production then there would be 150,000 of each card.

If this scenario is true than this would equal about 9,375 cases.

Estil

<< <i>I agree back in the day (has it been 20 years!) Flair was mind blowing, SP overlooked. How excited I got with each pack to get a Wave of the Future Piazza, Erstad or Jim Edmonds. Maybe I'm blending in 94 as well.

#'s seem about right based on your math. Only 2000 Eck autos, and my unicorn as a kid was the 5000 run Pro Set Stanley Cup Hologram. >>



Too bad it was overshadowed by the then white hot Lombardi trophy Hologram. Boy did people really go ga-ga for that one...

calgarycollector

Overshadowed unless you lived in Canada that is. Gaga yes, we had rumours of guys with metal detectors searching cases of Pro Set for that dang thing. I don't remember actually ever seeing one in person.

Estil

Yes, that was true for the Lombardi trophy and even the 1991 Donruss Elites (baseball)! Can you imagine what it must've been like pulling an Elite card from one of the most blatantly overproduced sets (1991 Donruss) ever?

mcadams

<< <i>Okay, first off a happy 20th Anniversary to both 1993 Finest and 1993 Flair, the first true super premium cards ever. Now as most here know, 1993 Finest's main claim to fame is its Refractors, >>



I always considered '91 Topps Stadium Club to be the first super premium card? Am I missing something?

vladguerrero

<< <i>

<< <i>Okay, first off a happy 20th Anniversary to both 1993 Finest and 1993 Flair, the first true super premium cards ever. Now as most here know, 1993 Finest's main claim to fame is its Refractors, >>



I always considered '91 Topps Stadium Club to be the first super premium card? Am I missing something? >>



1991 Stadium Club was Topps stepping up to UD's popularity of the time. Although absolutely a premium brand not comparable to the release/impact Finest had as a "super premium" brand imo.

mcadams

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Okay, first off a happy 20th Anniversary to both 1993 Finest and 1993 Flair, the first true super premium cards ever. Now as most here know, 1993 Finest's main claim to fame is its Refractors, >>



I always considered '91 Topps Stadium Club to be the first super premium card? Am I missing something? >>



1991 Stadium Club was Topps stepping up to UD's popularity of the time. Although absolutely a premium brand not comparable to the release/impact Finest had as a "super premium" brand imo. >>



I wouldn't characterize TSC as "stepping up to UD". When Stadium Club was released, the gap between the quality it offered and anything else seen to date was just enormous. Don't be tainted by the fact that they've lost popularity over time. Surely you remember paying $8 a pack and the awe you felt seeing those for the 1st time.... Later in '93, there is no question that Finest was the better card, however the gap between Finest and other brands of the day was much smaller by comparison IMO. I thought TSC represented the real breakthrough several years earlier.

vladguerrero

I would still disagree that the buzz around 1991 SC was more than 1993 Finest, also 1993 Finest was much more of a premium quality product.

Competition can be good and UD's introduction into the marketplace drove Topps to create a "premium" product.. besides these bloggers agree with me and since it's on the internet obviously it's true...

Topps’ answer to the new, slick-look 1989 Upper Deck baseball card product came two years later as 1991 Stadium Club.

The 1991 Stadium Club set was Topps' response to Upper Deck, and what a dandy-looking set it was at the time. We all know how revolutionary full-bleed photos and thick card stock was at the time.

I would place 1991 SC closer to 1989 UD and it's popularity, rather than comparing it as a super premium product such as 1993 Finest. All historic sets though!

jradke4

<< <i>Yes, that was true for the Lombardi trophy and even the 1991 Donruss Elites (baseball)! Can you imagine what it must've been like pulling an Elite card from one of the most blatantly overproduced sets (1991 Donruss) ever? >>



hey i pulled a Sandberg auto back in the spring of 1991!!! it was fun. one of the first pack issued autos after the find the reggie craze of UD 1990.

ydapd

<< <i>Yes, that was true for the Lombardi trophy and even the 1991 Donruss Elites (baseball)! Can you imagine what it must've been like pulling an Elite card from one of the most blatantly overproduced sets (1991 Donruss) ever? >>



I actually pulled a Nolan Ryan Legends from 91 Donruss in my LCS, sold it on the spot ($200 and a couple boxes of cards IIRC). also think , I've still got a Chicago Tribune article from 91 about pack searching 91 Donruss for Elites, according to the article you could somehow tell by a lighter or darker shade of the color of the wrapper. If I ever find it I'll post a scan. (btw I spent god knows how much on wax trying to put that theory to work, but nothing. , my Ryan pull was pure luck.)

ydapd

<< <i>

<< <i>your math sounds right . I'd say 93 SP was a bigger competitor to Finest than Flair was though. >>



I disagree. The set was no different than Ultra or Leaf in terms of production quality--it had UV coating on both sides and a small copper (instead of the usual gold) foil stamped logo (on most of the cards). Whereas Flair (twice as thick and very glossy on both sides with six color printing) and Finest (shiny chrome-like foil front) were the true super premium sets. In fact I don't think Upper Deck made their first true super premium set until 1996 SPx. >>



you're right about the quality being better , I just remember SP boxes always being priced higher than Flair boxes. and I don't know if it was "super premium", but for back than that was as premium as UD got. I also remember 94 SP and red holoviews being even hotter than 94 Finest and refractors.

Estil

The reason the 1994 Refractors fell victim to the classic "sophomore jinx" was that they were much easier to pull (I think it was one in nine packs?) and the fact that 1994 Finest was two series was a big turn off at the time. Still I would LOVE to own that refractor set if the price is right, and if one ever shows up at all...

Estil

As crazy as this is to believe, now it's the 25th anniversary of the first ever super premium sets! Wow, where does the time go???

Tibor

1989 UD was a nice card, not premium except for price.
1991 SC was a premium card that was OVER PRODUCED
1993 Flair nice card but lots of production
1993 Finest premium card low production Refractors were
tough to find and verify.
re. 1993 Finest One board member here has hundreds of
these refractors. He also helped me finish my 1994 Pinnacle
Artist Proof set.

Estil

I'd rather have the Museum Collection set. There is one for sale on Feebay but it's a bit too rich for my blood...those cards really do look awesome, as opposed to the Artist's Proofs that are supposed to be much more limited edition yet just have a cheap little stamp on them :P

royalbrett

I've never been a fan of the Finest product. I know the popularity of the cards have always been really high, but the look of the cards are not what I consider beautiful in terms of card photography. TSC, however, was huge step up in terms of card attractiveness, IMO. Seems Fleer Ultra in 1992 was the attempt to duplicate this.

Estil

I don't think Finest was meant to be the ultimate in card photography...that was Stadium Club's job (especially first couple of years...why do you think 1992's design was borderless and minimalist?), just like how rookies and pre-rookies (guys who were still in the minors and not yet in the bigs) were Bowman's claim to fame.

PROMETHIUS88

I'm not very familiar with the boxes of these. How many refractors could you count on per box in the 93 Finest?

Estil

Usually about one per box, occasionally two...but lookie what this guy was able to pull from his 1993 Finest box break (go to 2:00)! And this guy busted four of these $350+ boxes, knowing full well odds are the refractor won't even come close to breaking even?? This guy must be rich!

https://youtu.be/8sVQCQEJYno

1954

It has been a long time since I opened up 1993 Topps Finest but I think the Alou is a tough pull for refractors. That was a cool video. Thanks

3stars

One Pro set Stanley cup hologram card on ebay right now PSA 6 $1199, several Lombardi trophy hologram cards around $100. Maybe those super cheap pro set boxes might be worth breaking a case or two after all.

LarkinCollector

@3stars said:
One Pro set Stanley cup hologram card on ebay right now PSA 6 $1199, several Lombardi trophy hologram cards around $100. Maybe those super cheap pro set boxes might be worth breaking a case or two after all.

Odds were long to begin with, but most have been found with a metal detector at this point.

hyperchipper09

I preferred the look of the 93 Flair over 93 Finest then and now. Really nice looking cards IMO.

Estil

Wow, has it now already been 25 years since these landmark baseball card sets came out??? Where does the time go???

NGS428

Looks like @Estil brought this back 5 years later, I am on board.

Lets show some 93 Flair (thick cardstock, run was 15% of ultra) and Finest (chromium base and refractor parallel)!

Landmark sets for sure! 1993 SP should be in the mix too somewhere.. They were all competing.

Estil

I don't think SP counts in the same category as Finest/Flair though. It's a regular Upper Deck card basically with a bronze foil logo. It's more like an Ultra or Leaf sort of card set

NGS428

From what I understand SP was designed to compete with these first generation of super-premium sets. Whether it did successfully is a different question. Historical significance they certainly rank for me Finest > Flair > SP. My favorites are Flair > SP > Finest.

x2drich2000

Personally, I think the only reason SP is even in the discussion is that it has the prospects (Jeter, Damon, etc) that the other 2 sets don't. Otherwise, I don't think it was much of a step up from Ultra. To me the best of the three was Flair. At least where I grew up, no kids could afford a single pack of Finest. It was a product really limited to just adults. In fact I would almost go one step further and credit Finest as being a negative for the hobby as it essentially began the process of pricing many kids out of the hobby. On the other hand, Flair was a premium product middle class kids could actually afford if they really wanted it.

maddux69

In regards to the Sp, I remember back when the Manny Ramirez was the most sought after card from the set with Chipper not too far behind. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

hyperchipper09

93 Flair. One of my all time favorite sets back in the day.

amp0909

I've always loved 93 Flair. The design and photography was just awesome. I've always wished they would bring it back but with Fleer out of the picture I guess the closest we get is Topps Gold Label. Just look at that Alomar. Beautiful.

amp0909

A 1993 Flair Jeter RC would be amazing.

BLUEJAYWAY

I remember Flair. The box the single cards came in reminded me of a cigarette box. The "Hot Gloves" inserts are an all time top 5 insert for me.

Estil

Yes indeed the then $25 per pack price of 1993 Finest was extremely controversial at the time...there were many in Beckett's Readers Write who were upset that it was making the hobby nothing more than money and hitting a jackpot.

Of course you could've just gotten a whole set for the cost of no more than 4-5 packs...I did many years ago!

Tibor

For all of the Flair fans, if you want to relieve the past
you can buy boxes and sets from BBCE relatively
cheap. Figure in the rate of inflation and you do have
a winner. Wasn't Flair packaged in little boxes per
pack inside the main box? If so, several possibilities
for on front stars/rookies packs.

lahmejoon

@Estil said:
Yes indeed the then $25 per pack price of 1993 Finest was extremely controversial at the time...there were many in Beckett's Readers Write who were upset that it was making the hobby nothing more than money and hitting a jackpot.

Of course you could've just gotten a whole set for the cost of no more than 4-5 packs...I did many years ago!

I remember packs initially being $10.

Estil

The key word is, "initially".

Huskies11

You guys got me nostalgic, just ordered this from BBCE, can't wait to crack it open

countdouglas

I've been mulling over the idea of grabbing a couple of boxes of Flair myself, for nostalgia's sake.

saraceno21

Can someone please figure out approximately how many individual base cards of 1993 finest there are?

x2drich2000

6 cards / pack
18 packs / box
12 box /case
4000 cases = 5,184,000 total cards in packs

241 of each refractor x 199 cards in set = 47,959 total refractors

5,184,000 total - 47959 refractors = 5,136,041 total non-refractors or 25809.25 of each player

Obviously since the numbers don't work out exactly, something is slightly off. Perhaps a few short print refractors, wrong number of cards in packs, stuff going out the backdoor cause the numbers to be skewed a little.

royalbrett

It would be interesting to know how many individual cards there were for 94 Flair series 2, which was said to be shot printed in anticipation of slow sales due to the strike.

Huskies11

Got these in today. I have to say it's been a while since I've actually handled these cards not in a PSA holder. It's really impressive to see the quality and thickness of the card stock, gloss, and photography. Absolutely gorgeous and really impressive for 1993.

Estil

I'm tempted to do this myself...but I'm not sure, I mean I already have both the regular and Wave of the Future sets...

saraceno21

@x2drich2000 said:
6 cards / pack
18 packs / box
12 box /case
4000 cases = 5,184,000 total cards in packs

241 of each refractor x 199 cards in set = 47,959 total refractors

5,184,000 total - 47959 refractors = 5,136,041 total non-refractors or 25809.25 of each player

Obviously since the numbers don't work out exactly, something is slightly off. Perhaps a few short print refractors, wrong number of cards in packs, stuff going out the backdoor cause the numbers to be skewed a little.

Thanks for this!

Estil

Well I don't normally do box/pack breaks (remember I do sets and it's usually MUCH cheaper to get a set than a "wax" box) but I decided to ahead and get a couple of 1993 Flair cartons from BBCE (one for me, one for wife) when I come visit her on her birthday this Dec 6 (she's in a nursing home about 40ish miles away and I can only get their via Greyhound; long story). At least with two boxes it's possible we could get a set out of it (I already have one from my college days in the early 2000s) but I guess we could make a game of it and see which of us can pull the most HOFers as well as hopefully get for her all her native Red Sox (a few years too early for her hero Nomar though).

I mean it is the 25th anniversary, the set does bring back memories, so why not let my wife see what the Cadillac of baseball cards (Finest was more like the Corvette with the refractors more like the Ferrari of baseballl cards) was like back then?