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Brutal SNAD decision, do I have any recourse? - Update

So I have been selling on ebay since October 1998 and have never had a single negative feedback or even a single snad case raised against me, with many thousands of sales. Last year, I bought a sealed case of 1984 Topps Football Factory sets from the REA auction. I opened one set, 60/40 all around, not bad. Opened a second, more like 70/30 - 75/25, decided not to open any more. Looked to BBCE who sells the sets for $350 and buys at $250. Decided to list the last 14 sets on ebay at 265 each (spoke to steve first and he didnt need that many). 9 of them sell over time, all with great feedback. Two sell in a day last week. One buyer asks exactly what 'case fresh factory set means". I respond that it means that I personally bought a sealed case, opened it and am the only one to handle the sets, which have clean, undamaged boxes and are still factory sealed. He goes ahead and buys. The other buyer leaves perfect feedback. The one who asked the question messages to say that the cards were bent and had print defects and wants his money back after opening the factory sealed set.

I explained that by opening the factory seal, it was no longer the item he purchased and he has taken responsibility for the contents. The value was in the factory seal and the possibility that there were mint or gem cards inside, not any kind of guarantee. He wants me to send him ANOTHER sealed set in its place and opens a case. I explain that the set is EXACTLY as described. I did not mention the condition of cards inside and never would, just like a pack, I dont know is inside. The only claim I made was that the set was fresh from a case, had a factory seal and as a result, unlike a wax back, the cards would be wax and gum free. All true. I go out on a limb, since he is complaining about "bent" cards and offer to exchange his set for the one I opened and still have which is razor sharp. Again he demands I send him another sealed set to open, which I decline.

Ebay decided within one hour to give him his money back. Forget angry, I am well past that. I am stupified. Do I have any options other than swallowing my own vomit?

For purely informational purposes, the buyer id is redskins0712, which I have now blocked, rather than see him use my own money to go ahead and buy another sealed set and repeat the process.



<<Update 03/01/2013>>

I did in fact receive the set back today and it is complete as well. The seller described it to ebay as dented, bent, marked, etc., but it was a flat out lie. The set that came back is in fact vending fresh and sharp. Centering is all over the map as vending normally is. For giggles, here are the keys:

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1975 Mini Collector
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions

Comments

  • ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just hope you get the original (now opened) factory set back from the buyer. I had a similar case against me and Paypal dinged my account for the items even though I never received the items back from the buyer. Ebay even sent me a message that said "The buyer did not provide any tracking info for the items" and they still just dinged me for $250.

    Good luck.
  • milbrocomilbroco Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    So sorry to hear of this. Were you able to explain your side of the story to ebay or do they just listen to one side? I have been selling on ebay since about the time you have and its this kind of #@%@ that made me stop. Nothing like this has happened to me personally but all of the horror stories from others about how ebay protects the buyer like this made me stop. Best of luck, I hope you get to tell your side and get the decision reversed.
    Bob
    ebay seller name milbroco
    email bcmiller7@comcast.net
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very sorry to hear this, Jim. Doesn't ebay require the buyer to return the item before refunding? If not, that's just plain wrong. With ebay, you pretty much shouldn't list anything you can't afford to eat, because you never know when you will get a scammer as a buyer. I would still call ebay, though, if I were you. You have a long track record with perfect FB, and you might get a sympathetic ear.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Very sorry to hear this, Jim. Doesn't ebay require the buyer to return the item before refunding? If not, that's just plain wrong. With ebay, you pretty much shouldn't list anything you can't afford to eat, because you never know when you will get a scammer as a buyer. I would still call ebay, though, if I were you. You have a long track record with perfect FB, and you might get a sympathetic ear. >>



    Not in my case. The buyer escalated to a claim (or whichever is the last step) at 11pm and I felt quite confident that all of the messages I submitted on behalf of myself would be good enough. By 11:19pm they had ruled in the buyer's favor. The next morning I received instructions from ebay not to refund the buyer because they were going to do themselves (of course, then you have to refund ebay). The following day I received messages form ebay/Paypal that the buyer did not provide tracking information for the items that were to be returned. I never received the items from the buyer.

    I wish MiniDuff the best of luck and if you find some way to get them to rule in your favor let me know. I stopped using ebay because of this as I was never going to give them a penny of my money without getting the items back from the buyer.
  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭✭
    That sucks and is totally wrong.

    I agree Buyer has to send back item for a refund forst thats ebay rules
    Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets
    1948-76 Topps FB Sets
    FB & BB HOF Player sets
    1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
  • MiniDuffMiniDuff Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭
    Decision:
    We've asked the buyer to return the item to you for full refund.

    Comments:
    The buyer has been asked to return the item to you. Once tracking shows the item has been delivered to you, the buyer will be issued a full refund.

    I'm not saying they wont as there are too many horror stories to the contrary, but it seems pretty clear that delivery confirmation is required. We'll see how it plays out and of course he cound send me an empty envelope with tracking...
    1975 Mini Collector
    ebay id Duffs_Dugout
    My Ebay Auctions
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭


    << <i>We'll see how it plays out and of course he cound send me an empty envelope with tracking... >>

    make sure you open the box in front of a postal employee and videotape it as you do so.
  • Unopened "Mint" cards and factory-collated sets are considered Mint in their unknown (and presumed perfect) state. However once opened or broken out, each of these cards is graded (and valued) in its own right by taking into account and quality control defects (such as off-centering, printer's lines, machine creases, or gum stains) that may be present in spite of the fact that the card has never been handled.
    From the 11th edition of "The Sport Americana baseball card price guide"

    This has been hobby knowledge for years, and common sense.

    Put some of the sports card related fees into educating your employees about the hobby.
  • Unfortunately the buyer protection treats everything the same. If they buy a factory sealed set and they don't like what they see they can return it the same way they can return a factory sealed toaster oven if they don't like the way it works. It didn't meet their expectations. There needs to be a specific enforced policy for collectibles.
  • Unfortunately, collectibles are wide open for fraud. Any non graded item can be substituted and returned.

    I've been on ebay for 12 years and have been ripped off a couple times.
    I still sell there because sometimes it's the best market and my loss rate is less than 1 percent.

    Where else can you pull an obscure item out of your attic and get a feeding frenzy?
  • Stories like this make me sick. I'm sorry that this happened too you.

    I have zero doubt that the buyer knew exactly what he was doing.

    Is there any way for some type of auction aspect be put into the BST section?
    I'm building a 1968 and a 1970 Topps set. I have lots of 1970s and 1960s to offer in trade.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That stinks!

    To answer your question, here are some things you can do;

    Quit selling on ebay, not what I would do, but some people would.

    Quit selling unopened on ebay, if their policy is the way it is.

    Try to get buyers to pay with a form other than PayPal. I have had no luck with this, mostly tried on overseas shipments when buyer didn't want to pay for proper ebay shipping.

    Continue on ebay, but raise your pricing to cover for $cumbags that rip you off.

    But the number one answer is............to "swallow your own vomit"! Even though ebay/PayPal have very poor policies regarding protecting sellers from these kind of scams, in the long run it's still the easiest, cheapest way to sell your items.

    Bidder blocked. Thanks for the heads up.

    Joe
    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>make sure you open the box in front of a postal employee and videotape it as you do so. >>



    I see people suggest that a lot. How does that work? A lot of boxes can be opened from the bottom. A dishonest person could simply replace the contents with rocks and tape it back up before opening it up in front of a postal employee.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭


    << <i>A dishonest person could simply replace the contents with rocks and tape it back up before opening it up in front of a postal employee. >>



    Can attest to this personally. It has happened to me. Sold someone a couple of graded cards, they didn't like them, and wanted to return them. Opened the package and the package contained the proverbial brick (it contained broken PSA slab halves). I opened in front of a postal employee, called PayPal immediately, and they acutally spoke to the ostal employee over the phone. If I did not open in front of the postal worker and get them on the phone with PayPal, I am 100% sure the scammer would have gotten away with it, as he seemed to know what he was doing and I believe had done it to numerous other sellers before me. Long story short, PROTECT YOURSELF!
  • 70ToppsFanatic70ToppsFanatic Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭✭
    Jim,

    How about you take Ebay to small claims court in your local municipality? Sue for the difference between the cost of a factory sealed set and the set you get back
    in its now "opened" state plus the legal costs (filing fee and your time at a reasonable rate).

    It usually only costs you $25 to file. If Ebay doesn't show up you get a default judgment in your favor. If they actually do show up, then you have the chance to
    argue before a judge why their decision is not fair (since the factory sealed item had been opened by the purchaser).

    I am in full agreement with you that you advertised a factory sealed item that hand been handled only by you. You made no guarantees about what someone who opened
    the item would find.

    I think its time we all start fighting back against Ebay when they do something so clearly unfair!

    AND IF YOU DO GET ANYTHING BACK IN THE MAIL KEEP IT SEALED TO HAVE IT OPENED IN FRONT OF THE JUDGE!


    Dave
  • If the guy does actually ship it back, without tracking supplied to ebay, you can reverse the screw job on the dude. Which I would do.
  • onebamafanonebamafan Posts: 1,318 ✭✭
    This is EXACTLY why i preach not keeping funds in your paypal account if you are a seller.....they can screw you and take your money. Do not make it easy for them to get your funds. If you choose to refund then YOU can send the refund.
  • buy something of his and ding him back.
  • this is why I've been co-signing recently to prevent these type of nutty buyers from going after me.
    image
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>make sure you open the box in front of a postal employee and videotape it as you do so. >>



    I see people suggest that a lot. How does that work? A lot of boxes can be opened from the bottom. A dishonest person could simply replace the contents with rocks and tape it back up before opening it up in front of a postal employee. >>



    I don't think this is going to work. I asked the guys at the post office to look at something I was mailing out, to witness that the exact item went in the package. I am in there a lot and friendly with them, but they didn't want to have anything to do with being any kind of witness.

    Their suggestion for mailing stuff out would be to use a shipping service. We didn't discuss opening packages from sellers or returns from buyers.

    Joe
    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,480 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>make sure you open the box in front of a postal employee and videotape it as you do so. >>



    I see people suggest that a lot. How does that work? A lot of boxes can be opened from the bottom. A dishonest person could simply replace the contents with rocks and tape it back up before opening it up in front of a postal employee. >>



    I don't think this is going to work. I asked the guys at the post office to look at something I was mailing out, to witness that the exact item went in the package. I am in there a lot and friendly with them, but they didn't want to have anything to do with being any kind of witness.

    Their suggestion for mailing stuff out would be to use a shipping service. We didn't discuss opening packages from sellers or returns from buyers.

    Joe >>



    That would be my feeling as well. I can't see postal employees becoming witness or party to such a request.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • Are you sure paypal took the money from your account or did they just freeze it pending further review which would include the buyer sending the item back to you etc.?
  • EAsportsEAsports Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭
    eBay is a cesspool these days.

    I don't miss selling on eBay at all.
    My LSU Autographs

    Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
  • 08HALA2008HALA20 Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭
    Sorry to hear that.

    I hope you can get in touch with Ebay and they hear and see your side.

    I blocked him also.

    Joe
  • Evilbay doesn't care how long you've been selling, or how much positive feedback you have. A seller can have thousands of feedback, and it only takes one bad buyer to ruin your ebay account.
  • You can call ebay back and appeal the case. I've done this before, and "won." The buyer still keeps their refund, but ebay will also pay you. So, nobody loses (except ebay).
  • SouthsiderSouthsider Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You can call ebay back and appeal the case. I've done this before, and "won." The buyer still keeps their refund, but ebay will also pay you. So, nobody loses (except ebay). >>



    You mean nobody loses (except everybody who sells on ebay who gets charged higher fees so that ebay can give "free" money to scammers who game the system with fake claims)
  • JMDVMJMDVM Posts: 950 ✭✭✭
    Any updates?
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