Fingerprints and world copper grading

marvinf

In the Goldberg's Hesselgesser Russian auction in June, 2000, I bought a copper 5 kopek novodel that was graded PF66RB by NGC, but at the time, the coin (49mm) was too large to holder, so it came with the NGC tag. Recently, I asked NGC about holdering it as a "reholder" coin, but they said since it was never actually in a holder, I would need to submit it as a raw coin. NGC would not accept the tag as proof of prior grading since they had no way of knowing how the coin was handled or even if this was the same coin.

On several occasions I have not been happy with NGC world coin results so I decided to submit it to PCGS for their oversize holder. Well, it came back PF63RB. It does have several large fingerprints around the circumference, so my presumption is that the prints caused PCGS to downgrade it as the surfaces themselves are quite nice. Here are two pictures: #1 is the 2000 auction catalog picture, #2 is the PCGS Secure service picture.

#1: ==> Goldberg 2000 auction picture

#2: ==> PCGS Secure Plus picture

Since the fingerprints were presumably on the coin at the time of grading by NGC (since they are in picture #1 although the lighting does not bring them out), is NGC less tough on finger prints than PCGS? Just going by the surface (which admittedly is hard to really see in detail from photos), I can tell you that the surfaces are at least, iMOP, 65 if not 66.

I know that it's virtually impossible to remove the fingerprints without destroying the coin's toning/surfaces, so I won't be trying. I'm relatively sure that Russian collectors (I mean actual Russians) don't focus on the slab grade as much as the verification of authenticity that the slab provides, so I'm not too worried about how the PCGS grade will impact a future sale, but I'm always trying to understand just what it takes to achieve a certain grade since I have many raw high-end British coins that will ultimately be plasticized for sale. I was very certain of at least a 65 on this large copper coin, so the 63 really surprised me as I know how badly marked up a 63 Morgan dollar can be.

So if anyone has had experience at the two services vis-a-vis fingerprints, I would be pleased to hear from you.

P.S.: I know I can always crack it out of the PCGS holder and sell it "raw" with the NGC PF66RB tag as it was in the auction from which I bought it.

Thanks.

marcmoish

Looks like it was way overgraded by NGC!

prob desrves the 63 and I can see it in a 64 too - of course this is OMHO!!

That said its gorgous you have much to enjoy regardless of label ;:

YQQ

if you are thinking of selling it..... sell it in Europe...

marvinf

<< <i>if you are thinking of selling it..... sell it in Europe... >>



Thank you for the comments. I agree that it seems that prices for high-end Russian coins are startlingly higher in Europe (Germany, Switzerland) than, for example, Heritage or Markov achieves in NY. The recent Sincona results were so strong as to make one doubt that they were real.

At least PCGS was kind to me with a grade on my 1910 proof rouble (PR66). But honestly, this coin a 63?? If you think so, just take a look at a 63 Morgan dollar. Liberty's cheek is a mess: ==> Photograde Morgan Dollars

No way, based on surface quality or strike, that this is a 63 - or perhaps there is a much tighter standard for large Russian copper than for Morgans?

But I agree with the other comment about the coin itself - it's a very nice coin regardless of the label. It's just that I paid over $100 to get it slabbed rather than have it loose with the NGC tag. At least it's in a holder (a giant one at that!!!), and now I can show it around. And I'm told that the primary concern of Russian high-end buyers is that the coin is genuine for which function the holder serves well.

Again let me say thanks for your informative feedback.

Zohar

#1



#2

SYRACUSIAN

I believe that NGC overgraded it and PCGS severely undergraded it. However, it's pointless to try to go through reconsideration service etc ,(where you'd gain one grade at best), and since your main goal is to sell it, consign it to Kuenker in Europe, who caters to a big Russian clientele, but raw with the NGC tag and the pedigree. It's not only rare but a condition rarity too, and Kuenker will assign a grade anyway, probably a top one, such as polierte platte, prachtexemplar , RR etc. I love it and I kind of prefer the first image, the neon colors of the second are not my thing.

YQQ

Syracusian..
would you break it out of the slab before sending it to Kuenker?
I would, as the grading is different than NA grading.. a lot more leeway in grades..
AND, when Kuenker sells it ( or Teutoburger), they guarantee authenticity.
If the coin is really rare, they might even want to buy it.
Just MO...

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>Syracusian..
would you break it out of the slab before sending it to Kuenker?
I would, as the grading is different than NA grading.. a lot more leeway in grades..
AND, when Kuenker sells it ( or Teutoburger), they guarantee authenticity.javascript:unorderedl(document.messagepostform.FTVAR_MESSAGETEXTFRM);document.messagepostform.FTVAR_MESSAGETEXTFRM.focus();
If the coin is really rare, they might even want to buy it.
Just MO... >>



Absolutely. Yes I agree with you, I'd break it out and send it raw, but with the old NGC tag anyway, if only for the pedigree, even if they'd be reluctant to reuse it in the new sale. But I'd rather sell it at auction than sell it to Kuenker (or another German auctioneer) himself, I believe that it will be a very hot item in an auction, and lately, most serious money is spent at auctions and not at dealers, even if this is not necessarily a good tactic for collectors.

marvinf

Thank you all again for the many helpful comments. I will most likely take your advice to sell it with Künker or perhaps Sincona. I'm not too familiar with Teutoburger. I've got three silver Russian coins, and two copper novodels, a B-89 2 kop as well as this 5 Kop B-206 (A or B?). Interestingly, PCGS called this an "A" while NGC called it a "B". According to Brekke, the edge is the determining factor. The edge on this one looks like Brekke's picture of edge 7 which indicates an "A" variety, but the eagle side looks more like Brekke's picture of the "B". They're both shown as "dot/dash" rarity in his book.

At the last Sincona sale, the B-206B in the collection realized close to $4000, and that coin was not even close to this one.

Based on the helpful advice given here, I will crack the coin out of the (giant) slab prior to selling and furnish the NGC tag along with the coin.

I admit to being a neophyte when it comes to selling, as I have been collecting for 55 years but have only sold two coins at auction, and those were no-brainers: high-end Chinese coins in a Hong Kong auction where the buyers were insane.

Should I be present at an auction to protect the price or simply put in a high reserve?

When Dr. Hesselgesser was starting to sell his Russian collection, I was present at the June, 2000 Goldberg sale. I found myself bidding on a superb 1903 NGC PR67 rouble from the Irving Goodman collection. Hesselgesser paid around $4000 for that rouble in 1991. Now, in 2000, it had an estimate of around $4000. I realize that estimates are fiction for the most part. I was bidding on it against a person on the telephone. I kept being outbid by this person. My bid got to close to $5000, and my dealer friend, seated next to me, said "careful" thinking I was victim to auction fever. So I stopped, and the telephone bidder got it. It was only the next day, while I was in the Goldbergs' offices, that I learned the lot did not sell! The telephone bidder was Dr. Hesselgesser's representative. I was mad. Ira Goldberg said they didn't know who was bidding at the time. Ultimately, in another of the several Hesselgesser auctions a few years later, this rouble sold for around $16,000. So I know that owners protect coins, perhaps to test the waters if they think the market is rising. Hesselgesser didn't delay long enough however, because I'm sure that this coin would have sold for $60,000 or more a few years later. I haven't see it come back on the market.

I'm enjoying this thread very much and appreciate the combined wisdom of the postings.

YQQ

To suggest what you should or should not do could be right or wrong.
it boils down to how honest a auctioneer is.
Personally I prefer to be there. Jump into bidding in the very last second. AND do not ever tell the auctioneer or anyone what you will be bidding on.
It is hard to proof if hanky panky is going on. Usually it is.
Even on live phone bidding...They do know what you bid on, because they call usually 15-20 lots before yours is on. You are an easy target with another bidder just in the other room at the same hotel....
Maximum PreBids??? never do them unless there is no other choice....

ormandh

<< <i>To suggest what you should or should not do could be right or wrong.
it boils down to how honest a auctioneer is.
Personally I prefer to be there. Jump into bidding in the very last second. AND do not ever tell the auctioneer or anyone what you will be bidding on.
It is hard to proof if hanky panky is going on. Usually it is.
Even on live phone bidding...They do know what you bid on, because they call usually 15-20 lots before yours is on. You are an easy target with another bidder just in the other room at the same hotel....
Maximum PreBids??? never do them unless there is no other choice.... >>



I totally agree with your logic. I liken it to playing the roulette wheel, never place your bets until the wheel is spinning and the ball is rolling. -Dan

marcmoish

I agree with Dimitri and would suggets Kunker for sure on this one raw!

I still think its vastly overgraded by NGC but heck who cares - we all know its a maginificant piece period!

Good luck


P.S. I moved up my thoughts after Zohar posted these pictures one notch - should be in a PCGS 64 and would easily sit well in a 65!

YQQ

Why is it that Finger prints can not be removed?

YQQ

Have no idea WHY it posted 2x...it happened before...
sorry guys

Why is it that Finger prints can not be removed?

LochNESS

I don't know why fingerprints can't be removed, but for comparison, here's a copper with fingerprints that received PCGS PR64. In my opinion, your piece has nicer overall appearance and market grade.

bidask

I have seen european collectors and dealers pick up great raw coins and put their fingertips on the face of the coin........that is not hold the coin by the rims.

marvinf

Since copper is a very reactive metal, almost anything, such as a weak acid, that might remove the print will also remove any toning and possibly some metal from the coin. What results might be an area that looks different enough to preclude PCGS or NGC from giving the coin a grade (it will get a "details" grade). If the fingerprint is very recent, you might be able to get it off with a non-destructive cleaner such as acetone, but once the acids in the print have been in place for a while, they etch the surface and their effects cannot be removed.

There a tons of copper coins where prints are evident, especially those with an amount of red still remaining on the surface. Once the coin tones down to brown, the prints are harder to see.

My intent with this thread was to see what others had experienced sending in bright copper or red-brown copper with fingerprints.

Unfortunately, one gets no feedback from the graders on their reasons for the grade. One is at their mercy. The only recourse is to spend more money and "hope" that perhaps you have different graders or that for whatever reason, they are feeling more tolerant on a particular evening.

With the recent submission of a 1910 proof rouble that had never been graded, I was almost absolutely sure that it would come back at least a 65, but I thought I had a chance at a 67 also. However, I've thought that in the past and been disappointed with a 64 (this on a mint state Morgan dollar that looked flawless to me). I submitted the Morgan dollar for a regrade, and it came back a 65 which I thought was fair, but it still took two submissions. I sometimes wonder whether this isn't a deliberate method to increase revenue, knowing that when a coin is ridiculously under graded, that it will usually be resubmitted gaining additional money. But one could never prove because, hey, it's only an opinion anyway. In any event, the proof rouble came back a 66, and it's the only one graded, so I was happy. This copper novodel is small potatoes compared to the rouble.

But I really don't believe that coins are under graded on purpose since PCGS or NGC could never continue to do this without it coming to light. So one must understand the "game." If you're a dealer and submit hundreds or thousands of coins, I guess it's just a cost of doing business. You win some and lose some. But for a small collector who puts his heart and soul into buying the best coins he can, having something graded seriously down is a shock. But that's the price of the ticket, and hopefully one learns from the experience.

Thanks again for the comments!!

marvinf

Here's another data point for your pleasure. Take a look at the MS64RD half penny in the PCGS pop for 1862 below.

This half penny has a ton of fingerprints on the reverse and one or two on the obverse as well as a serious spot or two, and it's an MS64! Just goes to show how inconsistent PCGS is for foreign coins.

LochNESS

Perhaps I am bias, but I think my PR64 which I posted above has better fields. I wonder if the darker toning of your novodel played a role in the low grade? I wish I had more coppers to share but none other have fingerprints and I'm mostly a silver guy anyway.

SYRACUSIAN

Hey marvinf, for a 9 year lurker, you have some very interesting thoughts and some great coins to share.


Do you plan to sell the rouble too?

If so, a trip to Europe when you sell them (in case you live in the States) is mandatory. As for the resubmission game, I think that you're absolutely right for the most part, but the Secure Plus service was introduced among others, to avoid exactly that: countless resubmissions of the same coin, but I can't be sure.


Care to share an image of the rouble? It seems that you made some excellent purchases, judging from these two.

LochNESS

Sounds like a great excuse for a European vacation to me!

marvinf

Hello Dimitri. The MS64rd picture I posted just previously is not my coin btw.

I have three silver roubles:

1826 NGC MS67 (finest known IMOP of any wings down rouble) ex Hesselgesser 2004 - I've tracked this date/type and never seen anything close in 20 years. And since we're on the subject of fingerprints, note a small fingerprint remnant at the top of the obverse, but that didn't prevent the NGC graders from giving this coin a 67. A business strike from 1826 that has virtually no marks is really a miracle given the minting process at that time. I assume this was a sample snatched up from the press immediately and put into the mint or other collection where it was untouched for many years. Contemporary collectors of that time probably weren't interested in ordinary business strikes so it probably was a mint or museum sample that later got into a famous collection such as Tolstoi's and wound up in Virgil Brand's collection where so many of Hesselgesser's coins came from. Mintage for this type in 1826 is unknown, but the total for both wings up (old type) and wings down (new type) of that year is around 750,000.



1910 PCGS PR66 (just graded pop ONE (of one) at PCGS and ZERO 66's at NGC). 1910 is a rare circulation strike year, only 75,000 struck. However, no one knows how many proofs were struck each year, but I've heard experts estimate from 100 to 300 proof roubles each year of Nicholas' II reign. Auction houses like to equate circulation strike rarity to the relative proof rarity when in fact there is no basis for this. But even at 300 each year, proofs are rare, and proofs like this one, with very well preserved surfaces and nice toning are very rare!



1922 NGC PR66 ex Heifetz (from 1922 set) ex Hesselgesser 2004. The proof RSFSR roubles ("star" roubles) of 1921-22 are very rare. Auction records for this caliber of proof reach $10,000.



and two novodels - the 5 kopek you've seen and this one:

"1757" 2 kopek NGC PF66RD ex Hesselgesser 2000 - best I've ever seen of Brekke - 89. There were two types of Tsarina Elizabeth 2 kopek coppers: Denomination above St. George and denomination under St. George. This novodel is an example of the rarer type, with the denomination above St. George. There are three distinct varieties of these novodels. This one has no "dot" before "DBE" and has a short lance. Therefore B-89. It's the only one graded "RD" and there are very few others. It's almost impossible to find an original (non-novodel) strike in any decent condition, therefore the mint was asked for restrikes or "novodels" from well-connected people, very much akin to the situation at the US Mint in the mid-19th century. Both this 2 kopek, and the 5 kopek discussed in this thread were most likely made in the mid 19th century by the St. Petersburg or Eketerinburg Mint. They were, and remain, very popular numismatic objects especially given their normally well preserved condition and reflective surfaces. In many ways, they are like proofs, intended for collectors, never to circulate.

LochNESS

Oh wow those are really beautiful! You have a great eye.

Thanks for sharing!

SYRACUSIAN

Marvin, I've had a chance to look at the Sincona catalogue of the "Sincona collection part one" ,auction 7, October 2012, one of the finest and most complete Russian collections ever assembled, and they did not have a single one of the coins that you posted here, and this is saying something, because otherwise, their collection is indeed impressive with some serious rarities and some wonderful proof strikes. The 1910 proof rouble does not exist (they start from the poltina that year), nor does the 1826 in PR (they have an EF-UNC, not nearly as nice as yours), and they don't have the 1921 either, wether in proof or unc.

As for the two novodels, they had both of them, but only in BU with some red, but none of the two in proof. If you want any other specific information from that sale, let me know. I am now seriously impressed, for I had spent a long time going through that incredible Russian collection, and seeing here all these examples that they did not have, simply put them in a different perspective for me!

marvinf

Dimitri, thank you again for your perspective. My 1826 is of course not a proof and all the more remarkable for not being one and surviving in essentially a pristine state.

Some of the results from the Sincona auction are so extraordinary as to be hard to believe. They are relatively new on the horizon, but represent the old UBS group which also had a great record, most recently with the so-called "Peak" collection from which I purchased a lot.

I can only surmise that they (and Künker) seem to get more moneyed buyers for the high end Russian coins than to our domestic (USA) houses such as Heritage or Markov at the NYINC.

Proof Roubles in Sincona:
Lot 1568: 1895 PR63-64 (my estimate - has big spot) - 10,000 CHF (hammer I believe)
1591: 1898 PR65-66 - 33,000
1600: 1899 PR64 - 30,000
1617: 1901 PR65-66 - 34,000 (nice toning)
1632: 1904 PR64-65 (toning) - 95,000!! (rarest circulation strike rouble but that has nothing to do with the proof mintage so why the huge amount???)
1699: 1915 PR62 (not that nice) - 11,000

These are all very, very strong prices for raw coins!

So it seems that $30,000 (approx. 1 CHF/dollar) is the going price for nice proof Nicholas II proof roubles plus or minus with/without toning. That's very encouraging, but is it real for other auction houses?

I don't have any of the latest Künker prices for Nicholas II proofs. Do you?

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>Dimitri, thank you again for your perspective. My 1826 is of course not a proof and all the more remarkable for not being one and surviving in essentially a pristine state. >>




You are welcome. I initially thought that your 1826 is a proof, the Sincona example wouldn't grade above AU55 IMO. Yours is simply stunning.



<< <i>Some of the results from the Sincona auction are so extraordinary as to be hard to believe. They are relatively new on the horizon, but represent the old UBS group which also had a great record, most recently with the so-called "Peak" collection from which I purchased a lot.

I can only surmise that they (and Künker) seem to get more moneyed buyers for the high end Russian coins than to our domestic (USA) houses such as Heritage or Markov at the NYINC.

Proof Roubles in Sincona:
Lot 1568: 1895 PR63-64 (my estimate - has big spot) - 10,000 CHF (hammer I believe)
1591: 1898 PR65-66 - 33,000
1600: 1899 PR64 - 30,000
1617: 1901 PR65-66 - 34,000 (nice toning)
1632: 1904 PR64-65 (toning) - 95,000!! (rarest circulation strike rouble but that has nothing to do with the proof mintage so why the huge amount???)
1699: 1915 PR62 (not that nice) - 11,000

These are all very, very strong prices for raw coins!

So it seems that $30,000 (approx. 1 CHF/dollar) is the going price for nice proof Nicholas II proof roubles plus or minus with/without toning. That's very encouraging, but is it real for other auction houses?

I don't have any of the latest Künker prices for Nicholas II proofs. Do you? >>



I don't have the realized prices of Kuenker either, but I'm guessing that you can find them at www.sixbid.com (closed auctions) if it's relatively recent. Sincona is indeed ex UBS, I believe that only the name has changed, probably because UBS decided to get out of numismatics. I still remember the days that you could visit their headquarters in Geneva or Zurich, and ask to see superb rarities, at fixed prices and purchase them if you wanted. I too saw that 1904 rouble, but unfortunately I cannot comment on the crazy price. It was a very pretty coin too, maybe auction fever by two spirited bidders, who had had a vodka or two before the auction?

Anyway, Sincona now looks like an even better venue for your fantastic novodels. I wonder what part two (and three?) of that collection is about. Gold and platinum issues maybe?