Star Basketball
ClockworkAngel
Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭
Back in the mid 90's when I was really into Basketball, Basketball Cards, etc (and Michael Jordan ruled the world), it was all about Star Basketball and I became somewhat obsessed with finding and collecting unopened team set bags from the 3 years - 83/84, 84/85, 85/86. I remember Star actually released their print runs of each bag and every team was different. I remember hearing the 1983/84 Mavericks was the rarest by far and I never did find it. (Something like 4,000 existed supposedly) Of course, the 84/85 Bulls Bag with the Jordan XRC was the holy grail of basketball cards back then and the 86Fleer was extremely popular but was considered his 2nd best card (maybe 3rd if you count Jordan's 2nd Star card in 85/86). Point being Star Basketball dominated the high end collecting circle in this period and 86F was it's little sister
So 20 years later, I notice that BBCE has a 1984/85 complete set unopened bags. Of course you have the Jordan, but also Stockton's, Barkley's, Olajuwan's, rookie cards as well. He's selling it for 4K. Absolutely no chance of finding this set anywhere near that 15-20 years ago. It has dropped so much...
This is a great example of how professional grading has taken over the collecting world, and specifically PSA has taken over the collecting world. PSA does not grade Star Basketball. Beckett does, but no one really cares. I notice if you go to the VCP and look up Jordan, they don't even list his Star Basketball cards. So essentially PSA and VCP have both completely eliminated Star from the collecting world. I understand the reasoning of how easy they are to counterfeit, but a lot of cards are easy to counterfeit these days. As a result, these sets are bargains if verified as legit. If, by chance, PSA finds a way to start grading individual and/or team bags and VCP lists them, the sky's the limit IMO.
Just an observation of how the hobby has changed so much. PSA has a lot of control
So 20 years later, I notice that BBCE has a 1984/85 complete set unopened bags. Of course you have the Jordan, but also Stockton's, Barkley's, Olajuwan's, rookie cards as well. He's selling it for 4K. Absolutely no chance of finding this set anywhere near that 15-20 years ago. It has dropped so much...
This is a great example of how professional grading has taken over the collecting world, and specifically PSA has taken over the collecting world. PSA does not grade Star Basketball. Beckett does, but no one really cares. I notice if you go to the VCP and look up Jordan, they don't even list his Star Basketball cards. So essentially PSA and VCP have both completely eliminated Star from the collecting world. I understand the reasoning of how easy they are to counterfeit, but a lot of cards are easy to counterfeit these days. As a result, these sets are bargains if verified as legit. If, by chance, PSA finds a way to start grading individual and/or team bags and VCP lists them, the sky's the limit IMO.
Just an observation of how the hobby has changed so much. PSA has a lot of control
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<< <i>PSA does not grade Star Basketball. Beckett does, but no one really cares. >>
People still care! In BGS 9, Jordan's Star rookie sells for far more than his Fleer rookie.
they have divested themselves of countless headaches and delays by not recognizing this issue as part of their gradable catalog of cards, and decided to let someone else take responsibility.
imagine all the screaming going on here if box after box of questionable Star basketball kept landing at the doorstep, thereby hindering their ability to grade stuff in which they feel confidence and security for us.
hire an expert? not worth the funds to employ such a person. so, perhaps they simply figured out that there's no upside to such a proposal.
<< <i>it's not control. it's called influence. which is how success is won.
they have divested themselves of countless headaches and delays by not recognizing this issue as part of their gradable catalog of cards, and decided to let someone else take responsibility.
imagine all the screaming going on here if box after box of questionable Star basketball kept landing at the doorstep, thereby hindering their ability to grade stuff in which they feel confidence and security for us.
hire an expert? not worth the funds to employ such a person. so, perhaps they simply figured out that there's no upside to such a proposal. >>
you may be misinterpreting my thread as criticism. It's more of an observation of the hobby and how much influence PSA now has on it. Not saying PSA is wrong to not grade them. mlbfan2, sorry. Yeah, I shouldn't say no one cares. Just saying I think it would mean a lot more if PSA graded them and BVG did not or whatever
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but, as an observer, you are always entitled to an opinion. no problem.
now you say "influence" instead of "control", so we could be in agreement.
I'm happy to say that the Star Jordan RC and his other issues from that year (288 and 195) are alive and well despite PSA not taking the initiative to hire an expert and grade one of the most important basketball cards ever. In fact, across all grades, the BGS Star RC commands more than the PSA Fleer. BGS is tremendously popular with modern basketball collectors, and whenever they get into Jordan they find his Star. There have been numerous articles and discussions here and elsewhere about these cards and the Jordan RC in particular (like many, I choose not to abide by the XRC designation).
IMO, neither VCP nor PSA are the end-all/be-all of the hobby. VCP doesn't track modern; I don't think this makes all those cards and collectors irrelevant. Also, completed auctions of the Star Jordans can be viewed just as easily on ebay without paying a subscription.
Jordan Star RC discussion
there's no potential for argument between the so-called experts. if the only source is wrong, they're wrong, theoretically.
no wars in this world. only calculated leaps of faith.
lest we forget that the so-called expert long ago was just a guy who owned a card store and knew a heckuva lot about them.
Matty, I will read that thread. thanks. I figured there was something already discussed but the search function never works for me here.
Has anyone discussed grading the full bags? Easier to authenticate? Harder? The cases are already in place with the cello packs PSA puts into them
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Jordan RC BGS 6.5 - $1174
Jordan RC BGS 8.5 -$2175
Jordan RC BGS 7.5 - $1700
Jordan RC BGS 9 - $7500
Jordan #288 BGS 8.5 - $800
I also believe PWCC sold the BGS 9 #288 at auction for over $5000 last year.
PSA has said they are not "closing their door" on ever grading these cards. IMO it is a disservice to the hobby they service. There should be nothing they cannot authenticate if they are the hobby leader. But luckily BGS does a fine job and thus collectors who want one slabbed can get one. As with anything, it is about acquiring the knowledge and expertise; that of course costs money and clearly PSA feels that the outlay to begin grading Star Basketball is not worth it-- which is their right to decide as a business. That said, it seems they are still grading packs after the Jose debacle, so clearly they feel they can rebound after a mistake/black eye. They should do the same with Star cards. I'd imagine there would be a significant bump in their prices from existing levels were PSA to ever start grading them, though, which would be good and bad for those actively collecting them.
<< <i>PSA has said they are not "closing their door" on ever grading these cards. >>
this doesn't offer reassurance to me. it makes me wonder if they feel capable of stepping up and hitting a nasty curve ball.
the capability would absolutely need to be honored with the use of a top-flight expert.
who will it be?
It should be Steve Taft, who was gracious enough to provide critical content to the linked thread above. I would think the experts are not signed exclusively to BGS, so if PSA wanted to plug that glaring hole they could step up. Once I got into this card and began talking with other basketball and Jordan collectors, I was pretty impressed by the stature it still has to them, and deservedly so. The BGS pop report data on it is equally impressive, in terms of rarity.
<< <i>Itz,
It should be Steve Taft, who was gracious enough to provide critical content to the linked thread above. I would think the experts are not signed exclusively to BGS, so if PSA wanted to plug that glaring hole they could step up. Once I got into this card and began talking with other basketball and Jordan collectors, I was pretty impressed by the stature it still has to them, and deservedly so. The BGS pop report data on it is equally impressive, in terms of rarity. >>
I wish they could sub out the grading of Star Jordans, tell people up front it will take much longer and cost more.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>I was a big basketball collector back in the day and 86F was always more popular than the Star sets (Star "booked" for more but was not more popular than Fleer; not even close). Remember before grading, Beckett was THE guide, and they listed Star cards. But despite that, Star never really caught on. The problem with Star was nobody had them. It's a true modern rarity (not counting numbered cards). This was also pre-ebay so your main/only options were mail order through SCD ads. Star was nowhere to be found at local shops or shows (unless you happened to be in a region with a big Star dealer). >>
I agree, I got sick of asking at tables.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
Check out the thread linked above in one my posts. In it Taft and others break down the truth vs rumor re star cards. The 84-85 Basketball was not reprinted as some hobby rumor often suggests. That's one of the greatest misconceptions regarding the Star Jordan and other early basketball issues. Ill find the exact post that discusses it and paste it here for ease of reference when done at the gym.
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
<< <i>ThoseBackPages,
Check out the thread linked above in one my posts. In it Taft and others break down the truth vs rumor re star cards. The 84-85 Basketball was not reprinted as some hobby rumor often suggests. That's one of the greatest misconceptions regarding the Star Jordan and other early basketball issues. Ill find the exact post that discusses it and paste it here for ease of reference when done at the gym. >>
let me save you some time:
Well "generally" would depend on whom was asked; the majority of the basketball collectors I know think the 80's era Star RCs have great flavor. That aspect is very much a personal taste thing.
As to the technical part of how they are authenticated, I'd have to reach out to one of the known experts in that field and perhaps they'd write something up for the board members here, at least to have as a reference resource for anyone interested down the line, but these excerpts from the Taft interview may help:
JordanCards.com: It is commonly reported that the 1984-85 Star Co set was reprinted by Star Co in the early 90's. Is this true and if not which sets were reprinted, if any?
Steve Taft: No, this is NOT true! Now that we know about the 1997 Shop at Home scandal, I think if the owner of Star could have made exact duplicates of his cards, he might have given it a try. Problem is, I don't think it's possible to match the cutting characteristics of the original cards, plus, the original printers were no longer in business.
Star did not print their own cards, the work was contracted. So, the original equipment is no longer available. The paper stock could probably be duplicated, but, I just don't see how they could have cut the cards the same.
Steve Taft: Where this is important to the hobby, and, what is almost always confused, is that Star Co. and their printer did not re-print their original cards. They made new cards (in 1997), but, back-dated these cards to 1985 and 1986. A couple examples are a 1986 Lite All Stars and a 1986 Crunch N Munch. These sets have different color borders and a different date than the original sets. Many of the cards from this 1997 counterfeit run used the same photos from original Star Co. cards, but, the set names and/or dates were different. Border colors were also different. The cutting patterns were another easy thing to spot.
An easy way to work thru this is to use the Beckett Annual Price Guide. If the set is not in the Annual Beckett, specifically by year and name, it's not an original.
JordanCards.com: Without giving away any trade secrets what are some basic techniques that collectors can use when identifying authentic 1984-85 Star Co cards?
Steve Taft: I think you want to know about the tricks of the 1985-86 Star Co. issue, card #'s 95-172.The original issue cards tend to have front border color bleed to the back edge(s).The 2nd batch, that I consider counterfeit, even though it was printed at the original printer, where the time of printing is in question, among other things, does not bleed onto the back edges. The original batch tends to have flatter colors and cards tend to be a fraction larger. The 2nd batch tends to be brighter in color, have more gloss, and, tends to be a fraction smaller. When those factors are difficult to figure out, you go to the layering of the film negatives. Border frames around the picture will vary, but, that's a card by card difference, not something that I can spell out here. Of note, GAI and BGS grader's pick up on these differences very quickly. Once they've got these mastered, the rest is very easy...
***Note that the perception in some corners of the hobby, perpetuated by PSA not grading the card, is false: the cards that were "reprinted" and are still detectable were 85-86 series, NOT 84-85. This is a misconception that many collectors, myself included, held. There are fakes of both the Fleer and Star and both can now be spotted by the experts, as BGS has chosen to bet their brand on it. Although there are a very small amount of them compared to the Fleer, it is a high dollar and high profile card, so getting embarrassed by it would be a major screw up by BGS. Hence if they weren't confident in grading them I'm sure they wouldn't climb out on that limb and take the risk.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Let me chime in on a couple things..... I have talked with Joe Orlando about the basics of how I train and prepare grader's to authenticate Star Co. I would prefer to keep his comments private, but, I will say I don't think he has a policy to never grade Star Co. in the future. In my opinion, it is possible that they will consider grading Star at some point in the future. I don't know if they will, but, I don't see it as a dead issue.
As to can they learn to authenticate Star Co.? Yes, the vast majority of Star Co. counterfeits are quite easy to detect. When you're dealing with a grading staff with the experience of PSA, people that have strong understanding of paper stock, inks, printing techniques, etc., they learn real fast. That "hobby perception" that the Star Co. counterfeits are exactly the same as the originals is one of the hobby's biggest MISperceptions.
There are a handful of Star Co. cards that do take a bit of advanced knowledge to authenticate, but, that's the exception, most are quite easy. My training sessions with SCD, GAI, and BGS were never more than one day, with some follow-up questions on individual cards. I'm pretty sure if the grader's from these companies can do it, the PSA staff could, too.....
In regard to the link for the GAI 9 1st Graded MJ-101, that is a real card. I owned that one a LONG time ago. It has been re-holdered multiple times since I sold it.....
Also, one of the guy's that was part of the biggest Star Co. counterfeit distribution rings is currently awaiting sentencing on a couple of fraud charges (that will include mandatory prison time). The conviction was hobby related, but, not to the specific card counterfeiting, nonetheless, it appears his partners have stopped the printing press for fear of joining him. With that, I'm hopeful the Star Co. counterfeiting may have ended. I won't name this person, here, since he was not convicted for Star Co. counterfeiting, but, he has been frequently mentioned on these boards for many years in regard to other frauds.
There's multiple 101 counterfeits, so, there's no single list of how to tell the fakes. In general, the 101 fakes are quite easy to spot. It's more about the fear that somebody will show up one of these days with a fake that actually is good. At this point, quality of '86 Fleer fakes is much better than any of the MJ-101 fakes. The 101 fake that is most common is the wide border version, with the red border significantly wider than the original. The other one I see frequently is a copy of the picture, leaving the card very blurry. Both of these are VERY easy to spot.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>Thanks Cakes, just got back and saw this. Hopefully I can find a BGS 9 before PSA ever grades the card! I bet it would jump near 10k for a 9 if that happened. I couldn't get an owner to part with a 9 for 5k last year. >>
Hey no problem. I sure wish I could also but I am still a little scared I don't have enough experience to pick a nice example. I might hit you in a couple of months to gain some more knowledge.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.