England: silver Short Cross penny of King John (1199-1216), struck in the name of Henry II, ca. 1205

lordmarcovan · February 11, 2013 1:24PM

England: silver Short Cross penny of King John (1199-1216), struck in the name of Henry II, ca. 1205-1207

I sort of had my eye on this for a while. Not only did I find the toning and strike appealing, but it also had such an expressive portrait. I guess those eyes hypnotized me. So one day King John's beady little eyes caught mine and we stared each other down. He won. I found my mouse fingers moving over to the purchase button and clicking.

Ex-Classical Numismatic Group, fixed price sale, 2/11/13 (via "Coin Shop" section of CNG website).

I'll quote the CNG listing for the particulars.

<< PLANTAGENET. John. 1199-1216. AR Penny (17mm, 1.45 g, 12h). Short Cross type, class Vb3. London mint; Wilhelm T, moneyer. Struck in the name and types of Henry II, 1205-1207. ҺªNRICVS R ªX, crowned facing bust, holding scepter / + WILLªLM · T · ON L(VN), voided cross, with four pellets in each quarter. SCBI 56 (Mass), –; North 970; SCBC 1351. VF, toned. Strong portrait. Ex Ridgegate Collection (purchased from P. Minns, July 1970). >>

PCGS cert verification page (w/TrueView image link)
Original seller page

Wikipedia links:
John, King of England
History of the English penny (from 1154-1485)

When posted here, this coin was part of my "Eclectic Box of 20" collection.

nicholasz219 · February 11, 2013 7:56PM

Uh, awesome coin. If I wasn't assuming that you probably paid more than I have budgeted for my Medieval English Penny collection per coin, I think I would have to be upset with you for picking this up. I am hopeful to find a nice example of a King John penny that will not break the bank. Nice nice pickup.

lordmarcovan · February 11, 2013 8:09PM

This makes up for a (probably lesser) John penny I scrimped and scratched and saved for, back in my really poor days in North Carolina when I was doing a British monarch set. I sold some antiques and stuff and got up about half the money the seller wanted in a money order, and the rest in some reasonably nice swapstock material. Then the package (my outgoing package with the swapstock and the money order) got stolen. I never got my John penny, and to add insult to injury, the post office refused to honor the insurance. I got zip-oh-lah, and was bitter for years. I'm over it now, and with this coin, I can close that chapter for good.

(Unless it too gets lost in the mail. But then CNG will eat it, not me.)

Bjorn · February 11, 2013 8:09PM

I always find it odd that Richard I and John continued to issue coins in their father's name - particularly after all the fuss they made over being king!

Anyway, good pickup.

ajaan · February 12, 2013 12:23AM

That's a pretty nice John.

Icollecteverything · February 12, 2013 1:19AM

<< Sorta had my eye on this for a little while.

Tonight it caught my eye again, and sort of stuck there.

Maybe because he was giving you the one eye googly eye stare.

bronzemat · February 12, 2013 1:41AM

Nice looking piece!

Sad story about the John penny. I would be stewing for years too. Im still stewing over a lost ancient that was only $50. True I got a refund thanks to ebay but I really liked it

The PO has really been a joke since Oct., for me at least.

lordmarcovan · February 12, 2013 1:55AM

<< Maybe because he was giving you the one eye googly eye stare. >>

That must be it. Man, if ever there were a googly-eyed stare on a coin, this one's got it, huh?

Normally I do not care much for the abstract nature of the portraiture in this era, but this portrait, googly-eyed or no, struck me.

Guess he must've hiphop- uh- hippopotam- uh, hypnotized me.

FilthyBroke · February 12, 2013 2:43AM

I dunno, I kinda like the bug-eyed look on this one. Nice penny!

ajaan · February 12, 2013 3:31AM

Are you going to get a Stephen penny?

Zohar · February 12, 2013 4:50AM

Very neat!

lordmarcovan · February 12, 2013 4:55AM

<< Are you going to get a Stephen penny? >>

One day I might have to do that. I had a pretty decent one back in the old broke days. It was a lucky find in a Liteside dealer's inventory, and something I normally would not have been able to afford, had I not gotten a good deal on it. It became the crown jewel of my English monarch collection. Michael/Aethelred later bought it when we went totally bust and they foreclosed on the house and I moved to Georgia to begin anew.

So if I got a Stephen penny, it would be a walk down memory lane, and another way to lay old ghosts to rest.

In a more "modern" vein, Don, speaking of seller's remorse, I sorta wish I had that Queen Anne guinea I sold you way back when, despite its modest grade and light graffiti.

And the proof Victoria half-sovereign.

And especially this Irish penny. Of all the coins from past collections I've ever sold off, I think I miss that one the most.

ormandh · February 12, 2013 5:05AM

SDSportsFan · February 12, 2013 11:36AM

Very nice Lord M...Congratulations!

I'm now on the lookout for one of those myself. Over the last year or so, I've been doing quite a bit of research on my family ancestry, and just discovered over this past weekend, that supposedly, King John I is my 26th great-grandfather.

Steve

nicholasz219 · February 12, 2013 7:00PM

How is it determined when a ruler in England was striking coins in the name of another King, typically his father? What am I missing or should be looking for?

lordmarcovan · February 12, 2013 11:51PM

<< Very nice Lord M...Congratulations!

I'm now on the lookout for one of those myself. Over the last year or so, I've been doing quite a bit of research on my family ancestry, and just discovered over this past weekend, that supposedly, King John I is my 26th great-grandfather.

Steve >>

I'm no expert on it, but I think, mathematically speaking, when one goes back over that many generations, all of us who share a similar language and culture (English, American, etc.), we're almost all of us related in some way or another to the prominent historical figures. I mean, think about the exponential progression... it doubles with every generation. So you've got two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and we're probably still in the 19th century. Keep that progression doubling each generation, and by the time you're back to King John's time, when the population was much smaller, you're probably related to practically everyone, from beggars and merchants on up to the king. Kind of interesting to think about, isn't it? Genealogy has never been a hardcore hobby of mine, nor will it be, but I've dabbled with it and do find it interesting. Supposedly I am a descendant of the Adams presidents.

<< How is it determined when a ruler in England was striking coins in the name of another King, typically his father? What am I missing or should be looking for? >>

This is not a dumb question at all. In fact, I have often wondered the same thing. I'm sure somebody in the know will enlighten us about that. There must have been die studies and hoards researched and all kinds of esoteric stuff like that done at some point.

ormandh · February 12, 2013 11:55PM

I'm no expert on it, but I think, mathematically speaking, when one goes back over that many generations, all of us who share a similar language and culture (English, American, etc.), we're almost all of us related in some way or another to the prominent historical figures. I mean, think about the exponential progression... it doubles with every generation. So you've got two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and we're probably still in the 19th century. Keep that progression doubling each generation, and by the time you're back to King John's time, when the population was much smaller, you're probably related to practically everyone, from beggars and merchants on up to the king. Kind of interesting to think about, isn't it? Genealogy has never been a hardcore hobby of mine, nor will it be, but I've dabbled with it and do find it interesting. Supposedly I am a descendant of the Adams presidents.

Thank you, LM! Now I have that crazy song "I'm my own Grandpa" running through my head...

-Dan