For The Jefferson Nickel Fans Out There ... "Guess What I Did Tonight"...

wondercoin

I'll tell you ...

I opened (7) fresh bank-wrapped rolls of 1960-D Jeffs from the "Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City Omaha Branch". I've been sitting on them for nearly (20) years and something just came over me tonight to open the darn things up. And, guess what I found ....

NOTHING!

A big bust! Maybe (1) nickel with about 3 steps at best out of the 280 fresh coins I looked at. So, these -280- coins lasted about 53 years in these original bank-wrapped rolls until tonight. -280- more great shots at finding a 60-D FS Jeff down the drain.

My personal guess .. a premium quality PCGS-MS65FS of this date would probably fetch close to $50,000.00 in the market today. And for those who think that is absurd ... just go out and slab one for what would likely be a quick and easy $50,000.00 payday!

Wondercoin

leothelyon

I went through two mint bags 69-D and 70-D, 8000 nickels. Took 4 months and came away with only 3 70-D's that had five steps but not perfect.
I also looked for high grade examples and errors. Assembled a couple MS64-66 rolls from each bag. And about 20 70-Ds that show machine doubling moving left to right. There was also 5-6 die pairings in each bag. Half way through a bag, I got to the point from just looking at the obverse, I'd already know what to expect for steps. I did find a few 3 steppers for the 69-D but nothing more.


Leo

shorecoll

So are you now old, blind Leo? At least Mitch has youngun's to look through his bulk stuff.

keets

Mitch and Leo, you guys need to wise up and trust your own instincts and experience when it comes to these coins...........................stop listening to the ramblings of those collectors who have an inherent dislike of moderns and constantly preach that since millions upon millions were struck there are Gem high grade, full step coins just waiting to be found. the true experts have weighed in on the subject for all to hear-----certain dates in the Jefferson Nickel series almost certainly don't exist in true Gem Full Step condition. search if you must, but the effort is in vain.

now don't get me wrong, I hope someone finds such a coin in either of the dates you two just reported on but it is an extreme long-shot at best-----as my father used to be fond of saying. "It's possible but not probable."

joeykoins

Don't you just" hate that when that happens."(Billy Crystal) That happen to me as well.I had a bank roll of 64d Jeffies,in which I had for years. Then,I decided to open,why I don't know,bored I guess.After I opened and searched through,nothing just like you.Then you start thinking,I should a left alone! It would have been more valuable If I left it in the roll.Oh well?That's a part of this hobby,curiosity!

DIMEMAN

Is it probable that in those years no "new" reverse dies were used? They just kept using the previous years? Because after all the first so many coins off each die would be fully struck. Or maybe the coining presses were set at a lower strike pressure. There has to be a reason.

JMHO

keets

sure, there's a reason..................it's called worn Master Hub and Master Dies which were used to make the Working Dies, the evidence is even visible on some Proof issues which show weakness at the bottom of the steps and to the sides. while subtle changes were made through the years it wasn't until 1971 when a major redesign/re-engraving of the reverse took place. if you look at 1971 issues the enhancement is quite clear.

wondercoin

When you consider the 58-D nickels have some of the nicest steps in the entire series and 59-D are certainly out there with good steps, it is really baffling why 60-D ended up just so horrible. Not quite sure what the Denver Mint was thinking or doing with the Jeffs in 1960/1961. But, whatever it was, they did the same thing with the Wash quarters as well ... produced very few nicely struck high end coins!

Wondercoin

razzle

I'm curious about the mint sets from those years (and others like them), whether there is a higher probability of getting "steps" there?

Type2

It's just what a Jefferson collector needs to do. Look, Look, Look thats are job. You will never find a nuget if you dont turn over rocks.

OldEastside

<< <i>I'll tell you ...

I opened (7) fresh bank-wrapped rolls of 1960-D Jeffs from the "Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City Omaha Branch". I've been sitting on them for nearly (20) years and something just came over me tonight to open the darn things up. And, guess what I found ....

NOTHING! >>



Remember Jack Nicholson in "one who flew over the cucoo's nest" when he trys to remove the sink in the dorm and he grunts and
grunts and gives up all sweaty and then he says "at least I tried"

This rings true for the search of a 60d with FS.......but hey, AT LEAST YOU TRIED
And you get an "A" for effort

Steve

keets

Mitch, re-read my reply above your last. certainly we are each free to choose some sinister reason or complicated conspiracy as to the reason for what appears as weakly struck Jefferson Nickels, but the problem for the series actually began in the early 1950's and persisted until 1971 as my post indicated. also, it wasn't just limited to circulation strikes; quality problems began to arise with Proofs in 1956 and lasted until 1960 while circulation strikes improved from 1957 through 1959 only to fall off again. ask the reverse question pertaining to the Denver Mint-----why did that facility strike the best coins during the first 20 years of the issue?? was there something going on in Philadelphia and San Francisco during those years?? I don't think it's anything past the fact that the coin's reverse and the overall design of the coin isn't conducive to high quality.

think about it................the obverse portrait has the deepest part of the die centered over the reverse feature which has the most intricate part of the die. the obverse tends to run North/South while the reverse tends to run East/West. there was a major design modification during the second year of production as a result of that poor design and no major re-working of the Master for over 30 years.

leothelyon

For the last 10 years, I'm the only one who has been able to show step coins for this date. The
first coin was also used to illustrate the coin and steps of the infamous 1960-D PCGS MS64FS that wasn't to be.


Nevadaman owned both of Nagengast's #1 and #2 set 60-Ds. The infamous coin that looked similar
to the one above and the one below which I own.


A FS example would need to look as nice, full hair details, full fat cheek, soffits on the windows and everything else
seen nice on my coin.

wondercoin

Keets: I did read your posts. And, I pointed out that dates like the 58-D come lovely, even with 5 1/2 - 6 steps in super high grades. You also mention that circulation strikes were bad, then good, then bad again. I agree, and wondered why that was. I still don't know.

Leo: JHF still owns an INCREDIBLE (roughly) 4 1/2 stepper of the 60-D (it used to be a $10,000 -$30,000 coin ... wink, wink) ... probably the finest coin out there for 60-D unless and until another coin ever achieves 5 steps and is crowned by PCGS as a Full stepper. If our friend really wanted it (the fellow who bought both of our 53-S nickels in gem FS), I suspect JHF would be happy to give it to him at a very good price, but we discussed 60-D nickels just the other day and I believe he was content waiting for a FS to come along. My only fear is our friend is not a "young guy". LOL.

Wondercoin

TPRC

<< <i>I'll tell you ...

I opened (7) fresh bank-wrapped rolls of 1960-D Jeffs from the "Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City Omaha Branch". I've been sitting on them for nearly (20) years and something just came over me tonight to open the darn things up. And, guess what I found ....

NOTHING!

A big bust! Maybe (1) nickel with about 3 steps at best out of the 280 fresh coins I looked at. So, these -280- coins lasted about 53 years in these original bank-wrapped rolls until tonight. -280- more great shots at finding a 60-D FS Jeff down the drain.

My personal guess .. a premium quality PCGS-MS65FS of this date would probably fetch close to $50,000.00 in the market today. And for those who think that is absurd ... just go out and slab one for what would likely be a quick and easy $50,000.00 payday!

Wondercoin >>



Thank you Wondercoin for the post. I am becoming a Jefferson Nickel fan and I had a similar experience yesterday. From Leo's reference in a previous post, I purchased THE Nickel Book, "The Jefferson Nickel Analyst" By Bern Nagengast, read it pulled out my collection of high end Jefferson's for a more detailed look yesterday. I have been keeping nice nickels for several years now. My reaction was disappointingly similar to yours on the rolls... nada......not much there on those coins identified as being difficult to find in FS. I found the book to be completely consistent with my collection, both in planchet description and in strike. I have some nice coins, but most, and virtually all identifies as scarce to very scarce in full steps, are missing in my collection. Which tells me that I have a long way to go.
But I did learn something...like how to tell a FS nickel for one thing...and I really like the author's detailed FS description. And the book is spectacular and an easy read. So thank you leo for recommending that book.

leothelyon

I was going to say, thousands have already searched through millions of coins for this date and my coin is one of those
survivors to this day. It was struck fully from day one and have really enjoyed owning it over the years.
But I understand those Buffalo nickel collectors who want full detailed coins for their sets. There doesn't
seem to be too many Jefferson nickel collectors that think the same way. The Fullest of Details on every coin for their sets.
Using the best of their knowledge for what to expect from the aging master hubs for a particular year and searching for that
coin until they find it. That's what building a great coin collecting is all about.
I can not give one other name that thinks like that for Jefferson nickels.

TPRC

So here is a question on Jefferson Nickels and I apologize in advance for stealing the post. For SMS Jeffersons in 65, 66, 67, is it really that easy to spot and differentiate an SMS from a regular issue? As easy as it is to spot a proof? I haven't had any problems yet, but I worry that one day I will come across one of these regular issue coins with FS and I will dismiss it as an SMS because it looks too good or is too well struck. I do know that there are telltale signs on the 67 reverses, but what about 65 and 66?

leothelyon

<< <i>So are you now old, blind Leo? At least Mitch has youngun's to look through his bulk stuff. >>



My wife tried helping me one day when I found her using my DOUBLET 16X a foot away from her eye. I
said, ',honey, you better put that down before you hurt yourself with it. She said, I can't see a dang thing!

keets

I agree, and wondered why that was. I still don't know

probably due to one of two things, better quality working dies ---or--- more working dies made.

coolest

I once had the fun of searching a 10 pack of 60-D nickel rolls, I only waited the time it took to get home til I opened them.
i was close but even a small lint mark can ruin the whole thing.

cladking

Imagine what that $14 face value could have bought in 1960. Invested in Xerox stock it would
have been worth tens of thousands by the mid-80's and then parlayed into millions today. It would
have taken a family of six out to a sumptuous dinner. Even if it had been used in exchange for silver
dollars it would be hundreds today.

Time is money.

While three step Jeffs are nothing today (especially '60-D's) what about in half a century? Will they
still be "common" then?

It's just funny how some things get set aside by the millions or tens of millions that turn out to be
worthless because so many were saved and other things that are worthless aren't saved because
they are worthless and common or simnply pass under the radar. In 1960 it was small date cents
that were going to make everyone wealthy and the majority of the '60-D sm dts were intercepted
before they got into circulation. This made them so common that in 2003 every single roll in the CDN
including the 2003-P & D had a higher price than the sm dt. Of course there were a few more common
dates but the demand for varieties like sm dts was lower. In 1960 the objective of collectors and
hoarders was to set aside as many coins and rolls as possible to sell them later at a profit. no one
thought of searching for the scarce varieties that have a nice premium or even looking for well made
mark free coins. So now we have tons of quantity but no quality. Over the years as the quality got
even worse there was no longer any quantity either.


People are funny animals.


History always repeats and...

JRocco

<< <i>

<< <i>So are you now old, blind Leo? At least Mitch has youngun's to look through his bulk stuff. >>



My wife tried helping me one day when I found her using my DOUBLET 16X a foot away from her eye. I
said, ',honey, you better put that down before you hurt yourself with it. She said, I can't see a dang thing!

>>





My wife also cannot use a glass.
I keep telling her closer honey closer...until she pokes herself in the eye.

wondercoin

"Imagine what that $14 face value could have bought in 1960. Invested in Xerox stock it would
have been worth tens of thousands by the mid-80's"

Yep ... those 280 nickels could have purchased about 70 gallons of gas if spent in 1960. Now, they are good for about 4 gallons!! And, that is the problem with collecting just about anything in my opinion. The money could always be spent better elsewhere. Cladking ... you hit the nail on the head!!

And, as always, just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

wondercoin

"My wife also cannot use a glass.
I keep telling her closer honey closer...until she pokes herself in the eye."

With both kids at college right now, I've had to hand over the co-pilot seat (along with 7x glass) to my wife. She is really "working that glass hard" ... I've got her on a job to tell me which MS69's are really MS70's. Talk about throwing someone in on the deep end!!

Wondercoin

leothelyon

<< <i>I agree, and wondered why that was. I still don't know

probably due to one of two things, better quality working dies ---or--- more working dies made. >>



It all depends on how well the annealing process went. Process that softens the planchets before they are struck. So in 1960, fed up with all the complaints from prior years, the boss visits the shop again, tells Shorty to cook at xxxx degrees and only for so long. But this phisses--off Shorty who yells as his boss leaves, 'you know that's not going to work, the planchets will be too hard!' Bad relationship between the boss and Shorty for years. Reason why the late 1950's and early 1960's produced a lot of black beauties and wildly blue color proofs. All because the furnace guy was overcooking the planchets. Capisce!

BigDowgie

wondercoin,

Great post! My eternal optimism facing the slightest of chances one of these BIG ONES will be the next coin I pick up keeps me looking! My motto in life, as it is with coin collecting, "if you don't look, you will never find!"

leothelyon

<< <i>wondercoin,

Great post! My eternal optimism facing the slightest of chances one of these BIG ONES will be the next coin I pick up keeps me looking! My motto in life, as it is with coin collecting, "if you don't look, you will never find!" >>



Ebay seller has 8 tight end rolls at $13.56 per roll. I say 'go for it, live up to your motto!

stephunter

I searched an original mint bag (4,000 coins) of 60-d about 4 years ago and came with a couple with pretty good steps, but no full step coins (obviously).

cladking

<< <i>I searched an original mint bag (4,000 coins) of 60-d about 4 years ago and came with a couple with pretty good steps, but no full step coins (obviously). >>



I collect the '60-D nickel by die variety (in any condition) and have seen only a few with three steps.

I haven't searched extremely large numbers but I've searched a very very diverse array of these in-
cluding numerous rolls. And this date comes fairly nice really. It doesn't come fairly nice that often
but it's not especially unusual to find attractive examples. Most people just have no concept how
elusive most moderns are in top notch grades. They assume they all exist in large quantities but
even those which are common aren't often available in top grades typically.

OldEastside

<< <i>

<< <i>I searched an original mint bag (4,000 coins) of 60-d about 4 years ago and came with a couple with pretty good steps, but no full step coins (obviously). >>



I collect the '60-D nickel by die variety (in any condition) and have seen only a few with three steps.

I haven't searched extremely large numbers but I've searched a very very diverse array of these in-
cluding numerous rolls. And this date comes fairly nice really. It doesn't come fairly nice that often
but it's not especially unusual to find attractive examples. Most people just have no concept how
elusive most moderns are in top notch grades. They assume they all exist in large quantities but
even those which are common aren't often available in top grades typically. >>



Well since we are on the subject of 1960 nickels, be it P or D, whats the deal with "bar date" is the term
I think to refuring to the 0 in 1960 with a bar above the zero, what cause's this?

Also, AND I HATE TO SAY THIS, as it make's me feel like I'm saying I saw Bigfoot or a UFO or even Elvis
BUT.........somewhere I have a couple of 60's, I forget if there P or D but.......they exibit a weakly, under
the zero in 1960 either a 9 or 7 as if it were and overdate, I've shrugged it off that I was seeing things!
My ? is have any of you guys ever suspected this on a 1960 or should I make an appointment with
Lenscrafters I must admit these came from a few rolls that were exibiting alot of Die Polishing in the fields
and I sent one in to PCGS about a decade ago with really nice steps but it came back bodybaged where they
said it was whizzed, allthough that particular coin did not exibit the anomaly described above.

Steve

cladking

<< <i>
Well since we are on the subject of 1960 nickels, be it P or D, whats the deal with "bar date" is the term
I think to refuring to the 0 in 1960 with a bar above the zero, what cause's this? >>



This is how I accidently started collecting '60-D nickels by die variety. There is a lot of die chipping
above the date and motto of these ands I just wanted every possible combination of chips. It wasn't
long before I noticed that this was largely die stage and I started collecting all the varieties I could
spot as well. The collection is worth little more than face value but it's been fun and informative.



<< <i>Also, AND I HATE TO SAY THIS, as it make's me feel like I'm saying I saw Bigfoot or a UFO or even Elvis
BUT.........somewhere I have a couple of 60's, I forget if there P or D but.......they exibit a weakly, under
the zero in 1960 either a 9 or 7 as if it were and overdate, I've shrugged it off that I was seeing things!
My ? is have any of you guys ever suspected this on a 1960 or should I make an appointment with
Lenscrafters I must admit these came from a few rolls that were exibiting alot of Die Polishing in the fields
and I sent one in to PCGS about a decade ago with really nice steps but it came back bodybaged where they
said it was whizzed, allthough that particular coin did not exibit the anomaly described above.
>>



Oh yeah. I've got several "overdates" as well such as a '66/5 cent but it's might be another bigfoot.

keets

they exibit a weakly, under the zero in 1960 either a 9 or 7 as if it were and overdate

dropped number 9 maybe??

ElmerFusterpuck

Saw this topic and though I could chip in. No FS for me, but I did run across a small stash of attractive 1960 and 1960-D ickels still in mint set cellophane. I picked the best 1960-D to submit (of course no FS) and managed to get a 65+ on it. It looks like the MS-66 grades are pretty elsusive too. I paid 25 cents for each of the nickels, so not too much outlay there. I submitted the nickel as part of a moderns submission batch sometime back.

OldEastside

<< <i>they exibit a weakly, under the zero in 1960 either a 9 or 7 as if it were and overdate

dropped number 9 maybe?? >>



I found them, they are 60 D's, I haven't looked at them in 5 years but upon closer
inpection they look more like a 7 and probably a die break ?? allthough I ran across
some other 60 D's and some of those look like a 9 that appears to be shelf doubling
within the zero of the date and only the zero...again ???.

What I'm saying is I have more than a few with something going on within th zero in
the date.

Steve

wondercoin

Elmerfusterpuck ... Nice 60-D in 65+! I saw a few MS66 coins offered this week (pop top) and your coin looks nearly as nice.

I did find a couple high end nickels in the 7 rolls and might try my luck at landing an MS66 as well.

Wondercoin