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Stamping a dateless buffalo nickel...
comma
Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭
Hey guys,
It's been a while since I posted here, but I plan on getting back into it!
I am in the process of starting a retail company/brand.
I was wondering if it would be legal to stamp dateless buffalo nickels with small steel stamps (either per the customer's request, a certain set of letters of my own, etc)
This would not technically be a means of advertising. It would either be a freebie with their order, or something they could buy for a small amount of money.
I just think it would be more unique to be able to stamp something small on them...to re-purpose them if you will.
I know counterstamping is a grey area.
If for some reason one of these got into circulation would it pose a problem if it was traced back to my business?
Curious if anyone has any experience with this, knows any of the laws behind it, or if I should just drop the idea altogether and either just use an un-messed with coin, or something else.
Thanks!
It's been a while since I posted here, but I plan on getting back into it!
I am in the process of starting a retail company/brand.
I was wondering if it would be legal to stamp dateless buffalo nickels with small steel stamps (either per the customer's request, a certain set of letters of my own, etc)
This would not technically be a means of advertising. It would either be a freebie with their order, or something they could buy for a small amount of money.
I just think it would be more unique to be able to stamp something small on them...to re-purpose them if you will.
I know counterstamping is a grey area.
If for some reason one of these got into circulation would it pose a problem if it was traced back to my business?
Curious if anyone has any experience with this, knows any of the laws behind it, or if I should just drop the idea altogether and either just use an un-messed with coin, or something else.
Thanks!
0
Comments
In England and The Realm it was a different story as defacing a coin was seen as an act of treason against the depicted monarch
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>While I'm not a lawyer, I don't believe that counter stamping was/is illegal. Some will say it is defacing money but then again so are elongated cents and those machines are located at every theme park in America.
In England and The Realm it was a different story as defacing a coin was seen as an act of treason against the depicted monarch >>
From what I have read, you CAN deface money. The law begins with "anyone who fraudulently...".
You can cut, smash, solder, drill, bend, whatever you want to do to a coin. However, if you modify the coin in a fraudulent manner (such as people who made racketeer nickels back then), then it becomes a crime.
I think it would be a really cool way to put those worn out buffalo nickels to use!
Here is a modern nickel with a counterstamp.
<< <i>
From what I have read, you CAN deface money. The law begins with "anyone who fraudulently...".
You can cut, smash, solder, drill, bend, whatever you want to do to a coin. However, if you modify the coin in a fraudulent manner (such as people who made racketeer nickels back then), then it becomes a crime.
I think it would be a really cool way to put those worn out buffalo nickels to use!
Here is a modern nickel with a counterstamp.
>>
Cool, thanks!
I've heard mixed opinions how if it at all relates to advertising for a brand and gets into circulation it can be bad...but it would be cool to have some with my actual brand name...so I'm really trying to make sure first.
I mean, I wouldn't be doing anything crazy...just some hand stamped letters either on the buffalo, where the date would be, etc (at this point). I have a few ww1 and ww2 metal stamping kits I want to make use of.
I just don't want to delve into this if there is any chance that I can get in trouble for selling or distributing something else like this.
What else do you think would constitute "fraudulent"?
Also, at this point, it would be solely dateless buffalos I would be using.
<< <i>
<< <i>
From what I have read, you CAN deface money. The law begins with "anyone who fraudulently...".
You can cut, smash, solder, drill, bend, whatever you want to do to a coin. However, if you modify the coin in a fraudulent manner (such as people who made racketeer nickels back then), then it becomes a crime.
I think it would be a really cool way to put those worn out buffalo nickels to use!
Here is a modern nickel with a counterstamp.
>>
Cool, thanks!
I've heard mixed opinions how if it at all relates to advertising for a brand and gets into circulation it can be bad...but it would be cool to have some with my actual brand name...so I'm really trying to make sure first.
I mean, I wouldn't be doing anything crazy...just some hand stamped letters either on the buffalo, where the date would be, etc (at this point). I have a few ww1 and ww2 metal stamping kits I want to make use of.
I just don't want to delve into this if there is any chance that I can get in trouble for selling or distributing something else like this.
What else do you think would constitute "fraudulent"?
Also, at this point, it would be solely dateless buffalos I would be using. >>
I don't think people would put them back into circulation.
FWIW, it might be a grey area only if you plan on circulating these. It will be like someone buying a ton of dollar bills, and then stamping them with his or her's business on them.
Maybe put the nickel in a 2x2 plastic bag, with a little note saying :This coin is a memento of your purchase, please do not spend this coin. Or something like that.
<< <i>
I don't think people would put them back into circulation.
FWIW, it might be a grey area only if you plan on circulating these. It will be like someone buying a ton of dollar bills, and then stamping them with his or her's business on them.
Maybe put the nickel in a 2x2 plastic bag, with a little note saying :This coin is a memento of your purchase, please do not spend this coin. Or something like that. >>
Ya, I was actually going to have them in a cloth bag with a similar message.
That way if anyone says anything I can show that is how I sent them...even though a customer could technically take them out and spend them if they wanted I guess.
Also, I'm guessing it helps the case that these are dateless and about 100 years old.
It would probably be more concerning to the government, etc if they were modern, used daily, jefferson nickels, etc.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I don't think people would put them back into circulation.
FWIW, it might be a grey area only if you plan on circulating these. It will be like someone buying a ton of dollar bills, and then stamping them with his or her's business on them.
Maybe put the nickel in a 2x2 plastic bag, with a little note saying :This coin is a memento of your purchase, please do not spend this coin. Or something like that. >>
Ya, I was actually going to have them in a cloth bag with a similar message.
That way if anyone says anything I can show that is how I sent them...even though a customer could technically take them out and spend them if they wanted I guess.
Also, I'm guessing it helps the case that these are dateless and about 100 years old.
It would probably be more concerning to the government, etc if they were modern, used daily, jefferson nickels, etc. >>
There are literally MILLIONS of nickels out there. Over two billion of minted in the year 1964 alone. So I think it would take quite a few to make the government take any kind of action.
I must find the law. It's on here somewhere
somewhere on here is also the Regulation pertaining to the destruction of cents and nickels.
I'll also have to look for that on here, too. At this point, I'll mention that cent elongators are not considered an issue under the regulation due to the perceive low number removed by them.
right now I'm tired and am going to bed.
<< <i>advertisements would be illegal. I must find the law. It's on here somewhere >>
This old thread says it:
silver surfer thread
<< <i>
<< <i>advertisements would be illegal. I must find the law. It's on here somewhere >>
This old thread says it:
silver surfer thread >>
I just read through that whole thread...still pretty confused.
Is the actual act of putting a stamp of any kind (marketing related or not) into a worn down buffalo nickel illegal?
If I stamped my companies name into a nickel, put it in a bag with a note saying this is not intended to be used as legal tender or circulated and then sold or gave them away would that be illegal?
If I was stamping something else (a customers initials, a random design) into the nickel and selling or giving them would that be illegal?
I can't imagine that I would ever give away more than say 5,000 of these. Ever. And none of them would ever be intentionally put into circulation. (If a customer bought one from me for more than 5 cents I don't know why they would put it back into circulation either)
I mean, at the end of the day the real reason I like the worn out buffalo nickels is because of how much they've seen. So worst case scenario is I can just throw in a regular nickel with my orders.
I just think it would be cool to re-purpose them and bring them back to life a bit.
18 USC § 475 - Imitating obligations or securities; advertisements
Whoever designs, engraves, prints, makes, or executes, or utters, issues, distributes, circulates, or uses any business or professional card, notice, placard, circular, handbill, or advertisement in the likeness or similitude of any obligation or security of the United States issued under or authorized by any Act of Congress or writes, prints, or otherwise impresses upon or attaches to any such instrument, obligation, or security, or any coin of the United States, any business or professional card, notice, or advertisement, or any notice or advertisement whatever, shall be fined under this title. Nothing in this section applies to evidence of postage payment approved by the United States Postal Service.
from the notes:
1951—Act July 16, 1951, prohibited use of notices or advertising prints or labels on United States coins.
=====================================================================================
Here is the final Rule issued by the Dept. of Treas.
(There is a listing of the submitted comments which some may find interesting, and a mention about changes to the coinage (which some know already))
The USC TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER II > § 5111 > paragraph (d) at the bottom
(d)
...(1) The Secretary may prohibit or limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of United States coins when the Secretary decides the prohibition or limitation is necessary to protect the coinage of the United States.
...(2) A person knowingly violating an order or license issued or regulation prescribed under paragraph (1) of this subsection, shall be fined not more than $10,000, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
...(3) Coins exported, melted, or treated in violation of an order or license issued or regulation prescribed, and metal resulting from the melting or treatment, shall be forfeited to the United States Government. The powers of the Secretary and the remedies available to enforce forfeitures are those provided in part II of subchapter C of chapter 75 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 [1] (26 U.S.C. 7321 et seq.).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Regulation is created under the CFRs as follows:
TITLE 31 > Subtitle B > CHAPTER I> PART 82 --5-CENT AND ONE-CENT COIN REGULATIONS
§ 82.1 Prohibitions.
Except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or designee) or as otherwise provided in this part, no person shall export, melt, or treat:
...(a) Any 5-cent coin of the United States; or
...(b) Any one-cent coin of the United States.
§ 82.2 Exceptions.
...(a) The prohibition contained in §82.1 against the exportation of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins of the United States shall not apply to:
......(1) The exportation in any one shipment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins having an aggregate face value of not more than $100 that are to be legitimately used as money or for numismatic purposes. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to authorize export for the purpose of sale or resale of coins for melting or treatment by any person. (edit: that's less than a full box of nickels)
......(2) The exportation of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins carried on an individual, or in the personal effects of an individual, departing from a place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, when the aggregate face value is not more than $5, or when the aggregate face value is not more than $25 and it is clear that the purpose for exporting such coins is for legitimate personal numismatic, amusement, or recreational use.
...(b) The prohibition contained in §82.1 against the treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to the treatment of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins.
...(c) The prohibition contained in §82.1 against the exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent and one-cent coins of the United States shall not apply to coins exported, melted, or treated incidental to the recycling of other materials so long as—
......(1) Such 5-cent and one-cent coins were not added to the other materials for their metallurgical value;
......(2) The volumes of the 5-cent coins and one-cent coins, relative to the volumes of the other materials recycled, makes it clear that the presence of such coins is merely incidental; and
......(3) The separation of the 5-cent and one-cent coins from the other materials would be impracticable or cost prohibitive.
...(d) The prohibition contained in §82.1 against the exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins shall not apply to 5-cent coins inscribed with the years 1942, 1943, 1944, or 1945 that are composed of an alloy comprising copper, silver and manganese. (edit: the war nickel exception!)
...(e) The prohibition contained in §82.1 against the exportation of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to 5-cent coins and one-cent coins exported by a Federal Reserve Bank or a domestic depository institution, or to a foreign central bank, when the exportation of such 5-cent coins and one-cent coins is for use as circulating money.
...(f)
......(1) The prohibition contained in §82.1 against exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins of the United States shall not apply to coins exported, melted, or treated under a written license issued by the Secretary of the Treasury (or designee).
......(2) Applications for licenses should be transmitted to the Director, United States Mint, 801 9th Street, NW., Washington, DC 20220.
§ 82.3 Definitions.
...(a) 5-cent coin of the United States means a 5-cent coin minted and issued by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to 31 U.S.C. 5112(a)(5).
...(b) One-cent coin of the United States means a one-cent coin minted and issued by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to 31 U.S.C. 5112(a)(6).
...(c) Export means to remove, send, ship, or carry, or to take any action with the intent to facilitate a person's removing, sending, shipping, or carrying, from the United States or any place subject to the jurisdiction thereof, to any place outside of the United States or to any place not subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
...(d) Person means any individual, partnership, association, corporation, or other organization, but does not include an agency of the Government of the United States.
...(e) Treat or treatment means to smelt, refine, or otherwise treat by heating, or by a chemical, electrical, or mechanical process.
§ 82.4 Penalties.
...(a) Any person who exports, melts, or treats 5-cent coins or one-cent coins of the United States in violation of §82.1 shall be subject to the penalties specified in 31 U.S.C. 5111(d), including a fine of not more than $10,000 and/or imprisonment of not more than 5 years.
...(b) In addition to the penalties prescribed by 31 U.S.C. 5111(d), a person violating the prohibitions of this part may be subject to other penalties provided by law, including 18 U.S.C. 1001(a).
This seems to allow the elongated cents.
What is interesting to note is I recently found a "Bass Pro Shops" elongated cent in a coin machine.
If that is not advertising, I don't know what is. However, if that is advertising, then the "Sea World" one I have may as well qualify, too.
I can't give legal advice to do something, but I feel like I can say that I wouldn't put "Shop at ..." on a coin nor would I advertise that I was putting advertisements on coins.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
<< <i>...(b) The prohibition contained in §82.1 against the treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to the treatment of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins.
This seems to allow the elongated cents.
What is interesting to note is I recently found a "Bass Pro Shops" elongated cent in a coin machine.
If that is not advertising, I don't know what is. However, if that is advertising, then the "Sea World" one I have may as well qualify, too.
I can't give legal advice to do something, but I feel like I can say that I wouldn't put "Shop at ..." on a coin nor would I advertise that I was putting advertisements on coins. >>
How about "Eat at Joe's"
Ya think that might pass muster??
Actually, I don't think anybody really cares about how cents and nickels are mutilated since the mutilation of cents has been occuring with regular frequency since the early 60's. And they actually circulate.
Given the design of the Buffalo Nickel, exactly where on that coin could you stamp anything that would be readable not to mention the number of stamps you'll have to go through given the hardness factor of nickel?
The name is LEE!
And the stamps I have are made for stamping steel (and are made of steel)...so I'm guessing multiple nickels should be fine. But maybe I'm wrong
<< <i>Thanks for the info everyone!!
And the stamps I have are made for stamping steel (and are made of steel)...so I'm guessing multiple nickels should be fine. But maybe I'm wrong >>
I doubt the government will care since buffalo nickels no longer circulate and you aren't trying to defraud anyone. I'd like to see a pic of one when you start producing them. Will you be offering them for sale?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the info everyone!!
And the stamps I have are made for stamping steel (and are made of steel)...so I'm guessing multiple nickels should be fine. But maybe I'm wrong >>
I doubt the government will care since buffalo nickels no longer circulate and you aren't trying to defraud anyone. I'd like to see a pic of one when you start producing them. Will you be offering them for sale? >>
I will definitely post a pic if I end up doing it.
And I would be give most of them away probably...if they get sold it will be for a very small amount
Well, the stamping bent the coins, and they would not work in vending machines. People got VERY upset with him.
<< <i>Back at the 1986 ANA convention in Milwaukee, a candidate for Governor in the next election had several hundred quarters stamped with an ad for his candidacy. He then arranged for the food vending services in the convention center to give them out in change.
Well, the stamping bent the coins, and they would not work in vending machines. People got VERY upset with him. >>
Haha...ya.
I think it's better if they are just a collector piece instead of a practical coin.
That way you're protected from the authority...and from the customer
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