TDN - Congrats on aquiring a fantastic piece of history. Further, I greatly appreciate the advice and incite you provide on this forum. I very much hope you continue to do the same in the future.
That said, I believe your $1 bet regarding the hammer is invalid because of your insider information.
Congrats, Bruce. I once got to see that coin, and it is truly fantastic!
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
That is an amazing coin!! Where would a coin like that be kept at?I would not feel secure even in a Safety deposit box.
I once carried it tucked safely in my cowboy boots - OK, one cowboy boot - because I was too nervous to leave it unattended while I went out to see a Warren Zevon show at The Bottom Line. And rather than sitting at a table, I stood at the bar so I could keep an eye on my feet. Yes, a coin like that can be quite the burden.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>That is an amazing coin!! Where would a coin like that be kept at?I would not feel secure even in a Safety deposit box.
I once carried it tucked safely in my cowboy boots - OK, one cowboy boot - because I was too nervous to leave it unattended while I went out to see a Warren Zevon show at The Bottom Line. And rather than sitting at a table, I stood at the bar so I could keep an eye on my feet. Yes, a coin like that can be quite the burden. >>
So that was YOU I saw standing at the bar at Trader Vic's drinking that Pina Colada!
<< <i>TDN - Congrats on aquiring a fantastic piece of history. Further, I greatly appreciate the advice and incite you provide on this forum. I very much hope you continue to do the same in the future.
That said, I believe your $1 bet regarding the hammer is invalid because of your insider information. >>
Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Wow, what an awesome coin! Must feel good to be able to acquire such a treasure and to be writing yourself into the numismatic history books.
@ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work. Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
MrE, was at least was. It has never been true that someone would "like to meet his tailor
Fair enough, and you will pay for that!
BTW, I was at the upper-upscale Waldorf Astoria for the NYINC show a couple of weeks ago, and one of the dealers commented on my attire, saying that I looked like a duck hunter. Sadly, I had to agree with him.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>MrE, was at least was. It has never been true that someone would "like to meet his tailor
Fair enough, and you will pay for that!
BTW, I was at the upper-upscale Waldorf Astoria for the NYINC show a couple of weeks ago, and one of the dealers commented on my attire, saying that I looked like a duck hunter. Sadly, I had to agree with him. >>
I said it once and will say it again. The closest thing I have had to a religious experience in numismatics was viewing the SP 66 1794 Dollar at the Stacks/Bowers table during the November Baltimore Show. A heartfelt congratulations to Bruce and Laura! TomT.
TomT-1794
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>I said it once and will say it again. The closest thing I have had to a religious experience in numismatics was viewing the SP 66 1794 Dollar at the Stacks/Bowers table during the November Baltimore Show. A heartfelt congratulations to Bruce and Laura! TomT. >>
I haven't posted in a while. Taking a bit of a break, but it's things like this that keep me lurking. A simple congratulations seems a bit understated, but my hat's off to TDN and Legend! Hope it sells for $20 million when and if you decide to part with it.
<< <i>I said it once and will say it again. The closest thing I have had to a religious experience in numismatics was viewing the SP 66 1794 Dollar at the Stacks/Bowers table during the November Baltimore Show. A heartfelt congratulations to Bruce and Laura! TomT. >>
Amen to that, BigMoose. It is a lovely coin.
Please visit Dave Wnuck Numismatics LLC at DaveWcoins.com
TDN: << Once we ascertained that we were up against the Pogues, the strategy was to ensure that we shock and awed them. As it turns out, the most we were high were one increment - and it's worth one increment to be the first to break $10M>>
TDN, although you know that I have a great deal of respect for you as a very sophisticated collector and as a part-owner of Legend Numismatics, this statement is not fair. It is theoretically possible that another bidder was shocked or awed, not B. Pogue. I had a long conversation with him about his bidding and I discussed the matter with relevant others. I maintain that he was out at 5.25 hammer ($6,168,750). Please read my report.
That's nice. You are entitled to your opinion based upon the information available, as am I. Your information is at odds with statements made to us right after the sale. We'll just have to agree to disagree. As far as the price goes, it was just right:
You paid for the 1794 S$1; its value is established. Knowing some of the players (or their agents) quite well, I have no doubt "shock and awe" was the right tactic. Used it myself.
David Hall calls this coin a SP67 in his weekly PCGS coin report.
Does this mean the coin just got a reconsideration grade from SP66 to SP67 and Tradedollarnut and Legend owes a 1% fee to PCGS on the increase from $10 million to $900 million which means a fee of $8.9 million to PCGS????
<< <i>David Hall calls this coin a SP67 in his weekly PCGS coin report.
Does this mean the coin just got a reconsideration grade from SP66 to SP67 and Tradedollarnut and Legend owes a 1% fee to PCGS on the increase from $10 million to $900 million which means a fee of $8.9 million to PCGS????
>>
If the coin were to one day become a 67, then that'd make TDN and Legend very astute buyers. I believe there are no other MS 1794 dollars graded above 66.
<< <i>David Hall calls this coin a SP67 in his weekly PCGS coin report.
Does this mean the coin just got a reconsideration grade from SP66 to SP67 and Tradedollarnut and Legend owes a 1% fee to PCGS on the increase from $10 million to $900 million which means a fee of $8.9 million to PCGS????
<< <i>I am CERTAIN TDN would pay the fee if they brought him a buyer at 900 million as well as the grade of SP67. >>
Yup. lol. But there's no way I would pay 1% to get SP67. What would that be - $150,000 up front? While I think the higher grade would solidify the coin as the best of the best 1794s, it just wouldn't change the value all that much.
<< <i>I am CERTAIN TDN would pay the fee if they brought him a buyer at 900 million as well as the grade of SP67. >>
Yup. lol. But there's no way I would pay 1% to get SP67. What would that be - $150,000 up front? While I think the higher grade would solidify the coin as the best of the best 1794s, it just wouldn't change the value all that much. >>
Why do I get the impression at that level, the 1% has some wiggle room. That said I honestly think that the adjustment marks precludes a superb Gem rating and the SP designation already puts it in a league of its own. My 2c
<< <i>You paid for the 1794 S$1; its value is established. Knowing some of the players (or their agents) quite well, I have no doubt "shock and awe" was the right tactic. Used it myself.
Coloneljessup sums it up nicely >>
One could argue that, as time passes, the jump in bidding is a story that adds baggage for this coin. If the buyer wanted to weed out the nambie pambies of the world, and was willing to go to at least 8.5m, the buyer would likely not have let the coin get away over one bid increment. As it is, we will never know whether the price realized for this coin was supported by a real underbidder.
On the other hand, I don't know that a sales figure from a private sale is any less real merely because it was a private sale.
In the end, I think we all stand in shock and awe of the coin and the price realized.
<< <i>I am CERTAIN TDN would pay the fee if they brought him a buyer at 900 million as well as the grade of SP67. >>
Yup. lol. But there's no way I would pay 1% to get SP67. What would that be - $150,000 up front? While I think the higher grade would solidify the coin as the best of the best 1794s, it just wouldn't change the value all that much. >>
You wanted to hit the 10 mil mark bad so what is another 150k. on the way to a 20 mil coin. Might as well have the highest grade to go with the price tag. Maybe you could flip double or nothing with Mr. Willis.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
TDN: <<That's nice. You (Analyst) are entitled to your opinion based upon the information available, as am I. Your information is at odds with statements made to us right after the sale. We'll just have to agree to disagree. As far as the price goes, it was just right.>>
In this regard, I did not put forth an opinion. I quoted BP. I discussed the matter with him at length. I also talked to someone who served as a consultant. Furthermore, I investigated the bidding. My inquiry very strongly suggests that BP was not going to bid more than 5.25(=$6,168,750). As TDN knows, I tried hard to find information about other bidders. I am not aware of any solid evidence that anyone, other than Legend, would have bid more than 5.5 hammer. That being said, I acknowledge, of course, that it is impossible to know for sure.
Nonetheless, it is a bit peculiar for TDN to assert that anyone was intimidated to the point that he did not bid. As far as I know, there is no evidence that anyone was so intimidated.
It is true that Greg Rohan was talking to someone on his cell phone while Rohan was holding a bidder paddle in a position suggesting that he may have been poised to raise it. Without knowing what the person at the other end of the conversation was thinking, it is impossible to know if he would have asked Rohan to bid more than 5.5 hammer. We will never know exactly what would have happened if the bidding had transpired in a different manner. I did not claim that I knew what would have otherwise happened. The cited article is mostly about the 1792 half disme and copper coins dating 1793 and 1794, from the Cardinal Collection.
I think the fact that no one topped our bid (and the look on several bidders faces) is all the evidence necessary to claim intimidation. And you are correct - we will never know what would have happened. We could have paid less, we could have paid more - we could even have ultimately been outbid. You pays your money, you takes your chances.
<< <i>I think the fact that no one topped our bid (and the look on several bidders faces) is all the evidence necassry to claim intimidation. And you are correct - we will never know what would have happened. We could have paid less, we could have paid more - we could even have ultimately been outbid. You pays your money, you takes your chances. >>
a very good argument could be made to have just paid $10m for sheer principal, forgetting all about getting bid up and/or paying less. some coin out there had to be the first to 8 figures, why not this one and why not now the honor of 8 figures will be held until a coin breaks $999,999,999.99 which i really do not see happening, possibly even ever. .
<< <i>I think the fact that no one topped our bid (and the look on several bidders faces) is all the evidence necassry to claim intimidation. And you are correct - we will never know what would have happened. We could have paid less, we could have paid more - we could even have ultimately been outbid. You pays your money, you takes your chances. >>
a very good argument could be made to have just paid $10m for sheer principal, forgetting all about getting bid up and/or paying less. some coin out there had to be the first to 8 figures, why not this one and why not now the honor of 8 figures will be held until a coin breaks $999,999,999.99 which i really do not see happening, possibly even ever. . >>
Exactly. I have never seen such a wide range of guesstimated values for a coin prior to the sale. Now, after the sale the coin's value is much more defined - as is its reputation for being America's first silver dollar
<< <i>..... One could argue that, as time passes, the jump in bidding is a story that adds baggage for this coin..... >>
One could also argue that, as time passes, any controversy over or even knowledge of bidding tactics will dissipate into oblivion and one primal set of facts will remain. Bid of $10,016,875 made. Bank wire in the amount of $10, 016,875 received.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Comments
That said, I believe your $1 bet regarding the hammer is invalid because of your insider information.
I once carried it tucked safely in my cowboy boots - OK, one cowboy boot - because I was too nervous to leave it unattended while I went out to see a Warren Zevon show at The Bottom Line. And rather than sitting at a table, I stood at the bar so I could keep an eye on my feet. Yes, a coin like that can be quite the burden.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Have you flipped it yet?
Heads? Or tails...
<< <i>That is an amazing coin!! Where would a coin like that be kept at?I would not feel secure even in a Safety deposit box.
I once carried it tucked safely in my cowboy boots - OK, one cowboy boot - because I was too nervous to leave it unattended while I went out to see a Warren Zevon show at The Bottom Line. And rather than sitting at a table, I stood at the bar so I could keep an eye on my feet. Yes, a coin like that can be quite the burden.
So that was YOU I saw standing at the bar at Trader Vic's drinking that Pina Colada!
<< <i>TDN - Congrats on aquiring a fantastic piece of history. Further, I greatly appreciate the advice and incite you provide on this forum. I very much hope you continue to do the same in the future.
That said, I believe your $1 bet regarding the hammer is invalid because of your insider information.
Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Wow, what an awesome coin! Must feel good to be able to acquire such a treasure and to be writing yourself into the numismatic history books.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>[..... So that was YOU I saw standing at the bar at Trader Vic's drinking that Pina Colada!
And his hair was perfect !
<< <i>Have you flipped it yet?
As mentioned in the article, Legend has no immediate plans to sell the coin. We are comfortable with this being a long term hold.
The operative word being "was", of course.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Laura did say she had planned to spend more...let me e-mail her my address for the change she had left.
TDN will put it in his type set with the SP68 SBA.
Fair enough, and you will pay for that!
BTW, I was at the upper-upscale Waldorf Astoria for the NYINC show a couple of weeks ago, and one of the dealers commented on my attire, saying that I looked like a duck hunter. Sadly, I had to agree with him.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>MrE, was at least was. It has never been true that someone would "like to meet his tailor
Fair enough, and you will pay for that!
BTW, I was at the upper-upscale Waldorf Astoria for the NYINC show a couple of weeks ago, and one of the dealers commented on my attire, saying that I looked like a duck hunter. Sadly, I had to agree with him. >>
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
I remember it was part of the knoxville collection and he did not want to sell it separately until the offer was too good to be true for him.
A superb coin, and terrific folks on both sides of the transaction.
Congratulations to all.
<< <i>I said it once and will say it again. The closest thing I have had to a religious experience in numismatics was viewing the SP 66 1794 Dollar at the Stacks/Bowers table during the November Baltimore Show. A heartfelt congratulations to Bruce and Laura! TomT. >>
Quite an endorsement.
<< <i>That is an amazing coin!! Where would a coin like that be kept at?I would not feel secure even in a Safety deposit box.
I once carried it tucked safely in my cowboy boots - OK, one cowboy boot - because I was too nervous to leave it unattended...
You could always hide it in the spittoon. No one would mess with it there. Of course finding it could be difficult.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I said it once and will say it again. The closest thing I have had to a religious experience in numismatics was viewing the SP 66 1794 Dollar at the Stacks/Bowers table during the November Baltimore Show. A heartfelt congratulations to Bruce and Laura! TomT. >>
Amen to that, BigMoose. It is a lovely coin.
LanceNewman: <<... by auction standards is the most valuable coin in the world?>>
Yes, I compiled a list, with commentary.
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns
TDN: << Once we ascertained that we were up against the Pogues, the strategy was to ensure that we shock and awed them. As it turns out, the most we were high were one increment - and it's worth one increment to be the first to break $10M>>
TDN, although you know that I have a great deal of respect for you as a very sophisticated collector and as a part-owner of Legend Numismatics, this statement is not fair. It is theoretically possible that another bidder was shocked or awed, not B. Pogue. I had a long conversation with him about his bidding and I discussed the matter with relevant others. I maintain that he was out at 5.25 hammer ($6,168,750). Please read my report.
Cardinal Collection Results, Part 1: 1792 to 1794
Coloneljessup sums it up nicely
I knew it would happen.
Does this mean the coin just got a reconsideration grade from SP66 to SP67 and Tradedollarnut and Legend owes a 1% fee to PCGS on the increase from $10 million to $900 million which means a fee of $8.9 million to PCGS????
<< <i>David Hall calls this coin a SP67 in his weekly PCGS coin report.
Does this mean the coin just got a reconsideration grade from SP66 to SP67 and Tradedollarnut and Legend owes a 1% fee to PCGS on the increase from $10 million to $900 million which means a fee of $8.9 million to PCGS????
If the coin were to one day become a 67, then that'd make TDN and Legend very astute buyers. I believe there are no other MS 1794 dollars graded above 66.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>David Hall calls this coin a SP67 in his weekly PCGS coin report.
Does this mean the coin just got a reconsideration grade from SP66 to SP67 and Tradedollarnut and Legend owes a 1% fee to PCGS on the increase from $10 million to $900 million which means a fee of $8.9 million to PCGS????
Oucccchhhhh!
<< <i>I am CERTAIN TDN would pay the fee if they brought him a buyer at 900 million as well as the grade of SP67. >>
Yup. lol. But there's no way I would pay 1% to get SP67. What would that be - $150,000 up front? While I think the higher grade would solidify the coin as the best of the best 1794s, it just wouldn't change the value all that much.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am CERTAIN TDN would pay the fee if they brought him a buyer at 900 million as well as the grade of SP67. >>
Yup. lol. But there's no way I would pay 1% to get SP67. What would that be - $150,000 up front? While I think the higher grade would solidify the coin as the best of the best 1794s, it just wouldn't change the value all that much. >>
Why do I get the impression at that level, the 1% has some wiggle room. That said I honestly think that the adjustment marks precludes a superb Gem rating and the SP designation already puts it in a league of its own. My 2c
<< <i>You paid for the 1794 S$1; its value is established. Knowing some of the players (or their agents) quite well, I have no doubt "shock and awe" was the right tactic. Used it myself.
Coloneljessup sums it up nicely >>
One could argue that, as time passes, the jump in bidding is a story that adds baggage for this coin. If the buyer wanted to weed out the nambie pambies of the world, and was willing to go to at least 8.5m, the buyer would likely not have let the coin get away over one bid increment. As it is, we will never know whether the price realized for this coin was supported by a real underbidder.
On the other hand, I don't know that a sales figure from a private sale is any less real merely because it was a private sale.
In the end, I think we all stand in shock and awe of the coin and the price realized.
I'm glad everyone is happy.
But that's still only 100 million times face value... several other coins have already topped that mark
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>I am CERTAIN TDN would pay the fee if they brought him a buyer at 900 million as well as the grade of SP67. >>
Yup. lol. But there's no way I would pay 1% to get SP67. What would that be - $150,000 up front? While I think the higher grade would solidify the coin as the best of the best 1794s, it just wouldn't change the value all that much. >>
You wanted to hit the 10 mil mark bad so what is another 150k.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
In this regard, I did not put forth an opinion. I quoted BP. I discussed the matter with him at length. I also talked to someone who served as a consultant. Furthermore, I investigated the bidding. My inquiry very strongly suggests that BP was not going to bid more than 5.25(=$6,168,750). As TDN knows, I tried hard to find information about other bidders. I am not aware of any solid evidence that anyone, other than Legend, would have bid more than 5.5 hammer. That being said, I acknowledge, of course, that it is impossible to know for sure.
Nonetheless, it is a bit peculiar for TDN to assert that anyone was intimidated to the point that he did not bid. As far as I know, there is no evidence that anyone was so intimidated.
It is true that Greg Rohan was talking to someone on his cell phone while Rohan was holding a bidder paddle in a position suggesting that he may have been poised to raise it. Without knowing what the person at the other end of the conversation was thinking, it is impossible to know if he would have asked Rohan to bid more than 5.5 hammer. We will never know exactly what would have happened if the bidding had transpired in a different manner. I did not claim that I knew what would have otherwise happened. The cited article is mostly about the 1792 half disme and copper coins dating 1793 and 1794, from the Cardinal Collection.
Cardinal Collection Results, Part 1: 1792 to 1794
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns
Cardinal Collection Results, Part 2: Draped Bust Large Cents
<< <i>I think the fact that no one topped our bid (and the look on several bidders faces) is all the evidence necassry to claim intimidation. And you are correct - we will never know what would have happened. We could have paid less, we could have paid more - we could even have ultimately been outbid. You pays your money, you takes your chances. >>
a very good argument could be made to have just paid $10m for sheer principal, forgetting all about getting bid up and/or paying less.
some coin out there had to be the first to 8 figures, why not this one and why not now
the honor of 8 figures will be held until a coin breaks $999,999,999.99 which i really do not see happening, possibly even ever.
.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the fact that no one topped our bid (and the look on several bidders faces) is all the evidence necassry to claim intimidation. And you are correct - we will never know what would have happened. We could have paid less, we could have paid more - we could even have ultimately been outbid. You pays your money, you takes your chances. >>
a very good argument could be made to have just paid $10m for sheer principal, forgetting all about getting bid up and/or paying less.
some coin out there had to be the first to 8 figures, why not this one and why not now
the honor of 8 figures will be held until a coin breaks $999,999,999.99 which i really do not see happening, possibly even ever.
. >>
Exactly. I have never seen such a wide range of guesstimated values for a coin prior to the sale. Now, after the sale the coin's value is much more defined - as is its reputation for being America's first silver dollar
<< <i>..... One could argue that, as time passes, the jump in bidding is a story that adds baggage for this coin..... >>
One could also argue that, as time passes, any controversy over or even knowledge of bidding tactics will dissipate into oblivion and one primal set of facts will remain. Bid of $10,016,875 made. Bank wire in the amount of $10, 016,875 received.