Think i found a rare VAM

hiijacker

Looks to be a 1879-CC VAM-2B

Here are my pictures, i used a flash head on so they are overexposed

coinsarefun

Looks like it to me...congrat's

hiijacker

NIce

Windycity

Maybe.... need better closeup picture of clash.

crypto79

I think one of the things holding VAMpires back is the fact that there is a difference between Rare and interesting. While I know there will always be a minority that view them all with equal love; by mixing the amazing in with the benign and irrelevant all under one number system it crates indifference in the hobby.

IMO VAM could use a governing group to scale back the HOT40,top100 ect to a TOP50 and then everything else and a TOP 25 in Peace dollars. Keep the current numbering system but ditch the current mechanism for highlighting the important ones to outsiders or continue to have limited appeal to novices. Remember that the progression that is most often repeated in our hobby is

Buy a type coin>>>>>>fall in love
Chose a series to do a short set>>>>expand
Date and MM set>>>>>>>
Major Varieties (redbook)>>>>
lesser varieties/ die pairs>>>

By combining the major and the lesser it makes the gap to bridge a little to far on a hard to complete set already.

DennisH

There's also a BIG difference between rarity (not many known) and demand/value (lots of people want one and are willing to pay to get one). This is magnified when the underlying date is an expensive one. In simple terms, the more expensive the date is, the more difficult it becomes to extract any VAM premium. The issue of rarity also becomes less relevant if PCGS doesn't attribute a VAM on its holders, because attribution means there's a Registry Set home for it, and that aspect alone increases demand/value for it.

Bravo on your VAM find, but keep in mind that the date is expensive to begin with and PCGS doesn't attribute it.

lava

Excellent points by Crypto79 and DennisH - there is a big difference between rare and interesting, rare and demand, and rare and value. I noticed this with VAMs as well as capped bust halves and Overton numbers.

I think the solution is an interest scale. Coins of more interest are likely to command higher demand and bring higher value. Rarity may be a technical component of interest for those trying to collect every variety, but for the average collector, there needs to be more of a wow factor.

DieClash

<< <i>Excellent points by Crypto79 and DennisH - there is a big difference between rare and interesting, rare and demand, and rare and value. I noticed this with VAMs as well as capped bust halves and Overton numbers.

I think the solution is an interest scale. Coins of more interest are likely to command higher demand and bring higher value. Rarity may be a technical component of interest for those trying to collect every variety, but for the average collector, there needs to be more of a wow factor. >>



I believe the Cherry Picker's Guide includes both Rarity and Interest scales. So there is already a precedent.

messydesk

<< <i>I think one of the things holding VAMpires back is the fact that there is a difference between Rare and interesting. While I know there will always be a minority that view them all with equal love; by mixing the amazing in with the benign and irrelevant all under one number system it crates indifference in the hobby. >>


I somewhat disagree with this. The fact that there is a difference between rare and interesting, and that there has to be the right mix of both to translate into something bearing a premium value, those that follow VAMs closely for the most part understand this. The bulk of those that assume that a VAM number means the coin is worth more have never really studied them closely. The numbering system is no different than the one applied to any other series collected by die pair. The same system that contains rare and/or exciting varieties contains those that are common and dull.


<< <i>IMO VAM could use a governing group to scale back the HOT40,top100 ect to a TOP50 and then everything else and a TOP 25 in Peace dollars. Keep the current numbering system but ditch the current mechanism for highlighting the important ones to outsiders or continue to have limited appeal to novices. >>


I'm going to totally disagree with this. The "Top 100" guide, which came out in 1996, was meant to do exactly this, and it was effective. It focused the attention of potential VAM collecters that may have been overwhelmed with the then 3000 Morgan dollar varieties down to a manageable list that contained some common but interesting varieites (80/79-S overdates, 91-CC Spitting Eagle, 1887 Alligator Eye), some tougher varieties (1878 VAM 9, 1899-O Micro O), and some really rare ones (1878 VAM 14.11, 1878 VAM 44, 1883 VAM 10). As people worked on these lists, and enjoyed doing so, a few things happened. Some collectors discovered new die pairs within the list, thus expanding it. Some collectors started paying more attention to specific dates, others to things like die breaks and heavy clashes, and others craved additional focused lists to work on, giving rise to the Hot 50 and Hit List 40, and the Top 50 Peace dollars. These focused lists remain important in focusing newcomers, since the VAM catalog is expanding. This expansion is a result of the collectors finding their own specialties within VAM collecting. We now have people who have done detailed die studies of 1878 coinage from all 3 mints, 1879-S Rev. of '78, 1880, 1885-O, 1887, 1895-S, 1902-O, 1904-O, 1923-D, and probably others I'm forgetting. Many of these varieties are as interesting as beige paint. They do this because it's how they enjoy the hobby, and they share their results with the community. As a result of their work, we have a much more accurate picture of the die pairs available for these date as well as their respective rarity.

Does all this extra activity create distracting noise for novices? If there weren't an easy place to start, then perhaps I'd say it does, but it doesn't have to do with the numbering scheme and infrastructure for a beginning VAM collector is well established. Online, most will gravitate to or be directed to VAMWorld, which has newbie links such as "Attribution 101" and the popular lists linked from the home page as well as a helpful forum (no more dysfunctional than any other online forum) frequented by experts and novices alike, and a complete listing of the VAM catalog. The Society of Silver Dollar Collectors (SSDC) is the VAM specialty club that additionally offers a periodic newsletter and has established an online registry where collectors can assemble competitive VAM sets, the likes of which grading services wouldn't want to touch. We hold annual educational seminars at FUN called "VAM Thing", and this year we gave out our first registry awards. Dealers specializing in VAMs are available at most major shows to answer questions and help people get started and focused. What's important with the novice VAM collector is that he or she doesn't try to grow in the hobby by living in isolation from others. This holds true with other specializations, as well as coin collecting in general.

As for the OP's coin, it is VAM 2B. Like it because you think its neat, not because you think it's worth more than any other 1879-CC. There are 10 different 1879-CC varieties. I think the most common is the VAM 3, and I'm not sure what the rarest is, although I'm thinking VAM 6 (which at first glance Leroy Van Allen and I both thought was fake) is one of the tougher ones. Sooner or later, someone will do an in-depth study of 1879-CC and have a better estimate of rarity for the date.

namwalker

Being a newbie I have to ask the question. "take a better picture of the clash"? I've at the picture and studied it some and really couldn't see the clash at all. I have almost thousands of pennies and have looked at thousands more and for the life of me I do believe that I have looked at clashes and not seen them. So I am real interested in seeing what constitutes the clash on this coin.

I'm not doubting that it is there, just that I truly don't see it.

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>I think one of the things holding VAMpires back is the fact that there is a difference between Rare and interesting. While I know there will always be a minority that view them all with equal love; by mixing the amazing in with the benign and irrelevant all under one number system it crates indifference in the hobby. >>


I somewhat disagree with this. The fact that there is a difference between rare and interesting, and that there has to be the right mix of both to translate into something bearing a premium value, those that follow VAMs closely for the most part understand this. The bulk of those that assume that a VAM number means the coin is worth more have never really studied them closely. The numbering system is no different than the one applied to any other series collected by die pair. The same system that contains rare and/or exciting varieties contains those that are common and dull.


<< <i>IMO VAM could use a governing group to scale back the HOT40,top100 ect to a TOP50 and then everything else and a TOP 25 in Peace dollars. Keep the current numbering system but ditch the current mechanism for highlighting the important ones to outsiders or continue to have limited appeal to novices. >>


I'm going to totally disagree with this. The "Top 100" guide, which came out in 1996, was meant to do exactly this, and it was effective. It focused the attention of potential VAM collecters that may have been overwhelmed with the then 3000 Morgan dollar varieties down to a manageable list that contained some common but interesting varieites (80/79-S overdates, 91-CC Spitting Eagle, 1887 Alligator Eye), some tougher varieties (1878 VAM 9, 1899-O Micro O), and some really rare ones (1878 VAM 14.11, 1878 VAM 44, 1883 VAM 10). As people worked on these lists, and enjoyed doing so, a few things happened. Some collectors discovered new die pairs within the list, thus expanding it. Some collectors started paying more attention to specific dates, others to things like die breaks and heavy clashes, and others craved additional focused lists to work on, giving rise to the Hot 50 and Hit List 40, and the Top 50 Peace dollars. These focused lists remain important in focusing newcomers, since the VAM catalog is expanding. This expansion is a result of the collectors finding their own specialties within VAM collecting. We now have people who have done detailed die studies of 1878 coinage from all 3 mints, 1879-S Rev. of '78, 1880, 1885-O, 1887, 1895-S, 1902-O, 1904-O, 1923-D, and probably others I'm forgetting. Many of these varieties are as interesting as beige paint. They do this because it's how they enjoy the hobby, and they share their results with the community. As a result of their work, we have a much more accurate picture of the die pairs available for these date as well as their respective rarity.

Does all this extra activity create distracting noise for novices? If there weren't an easy place to start, then perhaps I'd say it does, but it doesn't have to do with the numbering scheme and infrastructure for a beginning VAM collector is well established. Online, most will gravitate to or be directed to VAMWorld, which has newbie links such as "Attribution 101" and the popular lists linked from the home page as well as a helpful forum (no more dysfunctional than any other online forum) frequented by experts and novices alike, and a complete listing of the VAM catalog. The Society of Silver Dollar Collectors (SSDC) is the VAM specialty club that additionally offers a periodic newsletter and has established an online registry where collectors can assemble competitive VAM sets, the likes of which grading services wouldn't want to touch. We hold annual educational seminars at FUN called "VAM Thing", and this year we gave out our first registry awards. Dealers specializing in VAMs are available at most major shows to answer questions and help people get started and focused. What's important with the novice VAM collector is that he or she doesn't try to grow in the hobby by living in isolation from others. This holds true with other specializations, as well as coin collecting in general.

As for the OP's coin, it is VAM 2B. Like it because you think its neat, not because you think it's worth more than any other 1879-CC. There are 10 different 1879-CC varieties. I think the most common is the VAM 3, and I'm not sure what the rarest is, although I'm thinking VAM 6 (which at first glance Leroy Van Allen and I both thought was fake) is one of the tougher ones. Sooner or later, someone will do an in-depth study of 1879-CC and have a better estimate of rarity for the date. >>




Your points are valid but not from an unbiased perspective in my opinion. My observations are based on the deflation of values for all but a few coins, the lack of visible growth in the Registries and the lack of a 2way market where collectors can get dealer prices. Most of the big boy sets were built years ago and I don't known may dealers that would dare sell a VAM at open auction on Ebay if the expected to get more than type price for it. I am not discounting the niche at all- I am saying if Morgan's had a simple and amazing TOP25 and Peace dollars had a TOP 10 all while ditching the other messily assembled group designations amassed over the years they would be much more widely collected. As of now it appears with too many intricacies that prevents collectors from stumbling into the advanced nature with any hope to complete and few try.

If there was a list that acted like the greatest hits that one could hope to complete (with resources), I suspect more would look into the rest after the fact. As it sits now none of the lists are exclusive to cool coins and in fact have many many dudes that the Avg person will never care about no matter if there is a slot of a registry or "TOP 40" set, as a result many do not care for the designated set which is a shame. If the set only consisted of overdates, doubled dies, OMM, a few rare die pairs and mint mark variations I think you would see interest explode as opposed to seeing the same couple of guys going through the same couple of dealers double row boxes. I am not saying ditch the vams or numbering system, just consolidate and condence the cool ones into 1 short list

I am purely talking about the marketability aspect of the niche and how to expand the collector base. Not on the merit of the specialty or the love that the die hards have for it. I am for one impressed but the die hards have set the tone to be too intricate. I don't think the VAMers need any help enjoying the hobby but the group is in desperate need for better marketing, collector base expansion and dealer network. Once again just my opinion

hiijacker

So can you confirm that this coin is a Kimpton 12?

messydesk

Yes, it is.

hiijacker

Got it back from grading as a XF45. Will be selling with GreatCollections. Will put post on fBST.

Thanks!

Type2

So what is it worth?

gypsylea

"I am purely talking about the marketability aspect of the niche and how to expand the collector base. Not on the merit of the specialty or the love that the die hards have for it. I am for one impressed but the die hards have set the tone to be too intricate. I don't think the VAMers need any help enjoying the hobby but the group is in desperate need for better marketing, collector base expansion and dealer network. Once again just my opinion "

Crypto, I think you make a good point, but consider for a minute what is the most salient difference between VAM's and, say, Overton Bust halves? Everything keys off die marriages in both systems, right? The only difference I can see between the 2 systems is that you are dealing with so many more to start with with Morgans than you are bust halves. I can't see that the die hards have set the tone to be too intricate. The basic problem is that Morgans were made in huge numbers and so many of them survived in high grades even with the massive melts. You can't make something rare that isn't.

That said, I agree that there might well be some benefit to focusing on VAM's in different ways, such as, for example,trying to collect all the s mint overdates. I bet if a few people focused on things like that, PCGS attribution and registry sets would follow.

DennisH

<< <i>So what is it worth? >>

None of the 1879-CC varieties really carry a premium; the value is all in the date+grade.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>

<< <i>So what is it worth? >>

None of the 1879-CC varieties really carry a premium; the value is all in the date+grade. >>


ty for the confirm. i was wondering what all the fuss was about.
.

johnny9434

nice pick up