<< <i>After all these Daniel Carr threads, has anyone changed his opinion? Lance. >>
I sure doubt it Lance. I asked DC why he won't put the word "replica" or maybe his initials on the pieces but he didn't/wouldn't respond. I am sure that those who purchase these overstrikes would probably still do so if he put his initials in the place of a mint mark or something similar. I think that would solve a lot of issues but.... I am not sure why he won't.
<<In my somewhat learned opinion, they are indeed legal tender. If you expertly engraved a new date onto an existing American coin, it would not change the fact that coin is legal tender. Nor, IMO, does stamping a different date on a coin with a die. >>
....and don't get me wrong; I respect said opinion... I simply disagree in this instance. Dan's not taking an existing piece and reengraving just one part, nor (obviously) is he reengraving an existing US Mint die; he's taking a unique die that he engraved and transforming the piece into a unique item bearing a date that never existed. In MY opinion, the coin stopped being a coin at that point and became a unique fantasy piece, albeit similar in design. Last time I checked, only the US Mint can lawfully strike legal tender pieces...so by overstriking the entire coin with new dies bearing a date that never existed in the series, it stopped being a legal tender coin at that point. And thus, the HPA wouldn't apply as it is not a copy of any genuine US Mint issue, or a "copy" of anything else for that matter.
<<Id agree , ive lost count of the counterstamped coins ive gotten in change , usually lincoln cents but altered all the same and no less legal. Im amazed at the comment that somehow the public should be aware of facts concerning a specialist hobby. That's a mind boggler.>>
Again, this isn't an instance of stamping something INTO an otherwise normal coin; it's taking totally new dies and transforming it into something different. As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? Saying Dan Carr is responsible if someone accepts one of his fantasy half dollars as legal tender is as ridiculous as blaming a casino, Chuck E. Cheese or a car wash if some nimrod accepts one of their tokens as a quarter.
<< <i><<In my somewhat learned opinion, they are indeed legal tender. If you expertly engraved a new date onto an existing American coin, it would not change the fact that coin is legal tender. Nor, IMO, does stamping a different date on a coin with a die. >>
....and don't get me wrong; I respect said opinion... I simply disagree in this instance. Dan's not taking an existing piece and reengraving just one part, nor (obviously) is he reengraving an existing US Mint die; he's taking a unique die that he engraved and transforming the piece into a unique item bearing a date that never existed. In MY opinion, the coin stopped being a coin at that point and became a unique fantasy piece, albeit similar in design. Last time I checked, only the US Mint can lawfully strike legal tender pieces...so by overstriking the entire coin with new dies bearing a date that never existed in the series, it stopped being a legal tender coin at that point. And thus, the HPA wouldn't apply as it is not a copy of any genuine US Mint issue, or a "copy" of anything else for that matter.
<<Id agree , ive lost count of the counterstamped coins ive gotten in change , usually lincoln cents but altered all the same and no less legal. Im amazed at the comment that somehow the public should be aware of facts concerning a specialist hobby. That's a mind boggler.>>
Again, this isn't an instance of stamping something INTO an otherwise normal coin; it's taking totally new dies and transforming it into something different. As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? Saying Dan Carr is responsible if someone accepts one of his fantasy half dollars as legal tender is as ridiculous as blaming a casino, Chuck E. Cheese or a car wash if some nimrod accepts one of their tokens as a quarter. >>
Something totally different ...that looks exactly like US currency , are you seriously saying a chucky cheese token could be confused as a US Quarter or are you just not thinking clearly today ? I too would love to hear why Mr Carr wont put his mark on his products , any thoughts there?
<< <i>As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? >>
Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?
<< <i>As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? >>
Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation? >>
Curious why this matters. The host coin is a genuine coin struck for circulation by the U.S. Mint. That original coin is then altered, so to speak, and if it were to end up back in circulation, what is the harm?
<< <i>As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? >>
Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation? >>
Curious why this matters. The host coin is a genuine coin struck for circulation by the U.S. Mint. That original coin is then altered, so to speak, and if it were to end up back in circulation, what is the harm? >>
I don't know- maybe because the claim was made that:
"by overstriking the entire coin with new dies bearing a date that never existed in the series, it stopped being a legal tender coin at that point..."
and it seems to be expected that cashiers can identify items that are not legal tender?
Yikes, that coin is still an original 50c piece with whatever grafitti or post mint striking alterations done to it. Not deceiving as to value of the coin. It would be a lot different if a 50c piece were restruck as a dollar.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him.
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them
<< <i>What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
No, he's not responsible for what other people know (or don't know) but he is responsible for producing something that can create that sort of confusion. Whether or not it's his problem is another issue.
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them >>
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date? The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them >>
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date? The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
It's familiar ground this "blame the victim" thing here in the US isnt it ? It's not the people who make meths or crack's fault people get hooked either , it doesnt make it right. Its not the fault of the manufacturer that a child steps on one of their landmines 20 years down the line either , i see what your saying , doesnt make it right. The 1975 effort isnt even more woeful , im surprised it hasnt made it's debut here as yet.
<<He is not nor has he ever been representing his creations as legal tender nor has he ever attempted to use them as such. >>
<<I disagree. In fact, I think the entire basis for not having to put copy on the coins is that they ARE legal tender. By overstriking a different date onto a legal tender coin, that thorny issue of counterfeit or copy is sidestepped.>>
The reason that it's not necessary to stamp COPY on them isn't because anyone's calling them legal tender-they aren't; it's not necessary to stamp COPY on them because you can't copy something that never existed in the first place. The only pieces where you could even get minor traction with a contrarian argument would be the 64-D pieces, and since they were never officially issued or monetized, that argument would also fail.
Edit to add- before someone brings up the replica 1933 Saints with "COPY" on them.... at least one of the original 1933 pieces has been monetized- so the HPA would apply there. Not so with the 64-D Peace Dollars. >>
In my somewhat learned opinion, they are indeed legal tender. If you expertly engraved a new date onto an existing American coin, it would not change the fact that coin is legal tender. Nor, IMO, does stamping a different date on a coin with a die. >>
Id agree , ive lost count of the counterstamped coins ive gotten in change , usually lincoln cents but altered all the same and no less legal. Im amazed at the comment that somehow the public should be aware of facts concerning a specialist hobby. That's a mind boggler. >>
So, exactly what do you do with these "counterstruck" cents anyway?
Do you destroy them? Send them to the Secret Service? Drive down to the Police Station and turn them in? What?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him. >>
Here's one he mint marked:
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them >>
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date? The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
It's familiar ground this "blame the victim" thing here in the US isnt it ? It's not the people who make meths or crack's fault people get hooked either , it doesnt make it right. Its not the fault of the manufacturer that a child steps on one of their landmines 20 years down the line either , i see what your saying , doesnt make it right. The 1975 effort isnt even more woeful , im surprised it hasnt made it's debut here as yet. >>
Victim? Geeze. Sorry, I forgot, everyone's a victim now and no one has any responsibility for their own actions, or in this case, their own knowledge or lack thereof... right. Sigh. This place gives me a headache sometimes. OK, then...using your same premise, all cherrypickers are crooks- because they are SPECIFICALLY taking advantage of someone else's lack of knowledge.
This isn't about "blame the victim"; it's about "you can't fix stupid" or more appropriately, "it's not my job to fix stupid". By your attempted analogies above, apparently you're assuming that Dan's pieces are made with the intent to deceive people. They aren't. People try to cash $1 million fantasy notes at banks (and one nearly succeeded in the recent past). People try to spend tokens and fantasy coins and coin shaped silver rounds and Eradicane advertising "quarters" and more....none of which were made with the intent to defraud anyone...and some are successful. That's not the fault of the people who made them.
Thread going on 10 pages now...wonder how close to a sell-out he is on these. Usually, the longer the thread, his items sell out just because of the 'chatter' about them.
<< <i>Thread going on 10 pages now...wonder how close to a sell-out he is on these. Usually, the longer the thread, his items sell out just because of the 'chatter' about them. >>
Earlier, somebody asked why he didn't put "COPY" on these things.
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him. >>
Here's one he mint marked:
>>
Did he do right and put that on one of the overstrikes.....or is that on one of his silver rounds ? Because if it is not on one of his overstrikes than you know it does not apply to this discussion.
If this was some fly by night Ebay seller making this type of coin and selling it on Ebay for 50.00 or more I would bet that seller would be crucified on here for a plethora of reasons
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him. >>
Here's one he mint marked:
>>
Did he do right and put that on one of the overstrikes.....or is that on one of his silver rounds ? Because if it is not on one of his overstrikes than you know it does not apply to this discussion. >>
That is an overstrucik silver eagle. Note the slight misalignment between the understrike and the overstrike on the E of FINE and elsewhere.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
<<What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them >>
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date? The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
OK, sure. But a tiny step to avoid any confusion ay all could be so easy to take. Of what purpose is having this controversy going and re-stirred all the time. ... .. .
All I can say is WOW... so many opinions, and so much futile time spent on this, so here goes mine (opinion and futile time spent): 1) cryptp79: "profiteer who is exploiting our hobby for profit." Interesting if true - because that has never HAPPENED BEFORE!!!! I think it is great for the hobby - spikes interest. So many are envious of those that make a profit. Who knows if he even is - All his time to put this together, supplies, etc., and if so, GOOD FOR HIM!!!
2) Too pricey for your interest? No one is making you buy one. How many of you have spent $100 a night going out for dinner for two (eating at home is 10 bucks), or a $100 night at the bar or what have you? Stay home one of those nights, and get one. You would at least have SOMETHING to show for your money spent...
3) Braddick:
4) "Does this also apply to dipping?" oh no, here we go again...
5) James Murry: "Are you serious saying a chucky cheese token could be confused for a quarter?" Absolutely - Telephoto1 is thinking quite clearly. I've seen it all and read it all. The employees for a firm that got $1,000,000 Statue of Liberty bills at a Christmas Party thinking they were real??? (News). The mint surrendering the hopeful acceptance of Susan B. Anthony coin dollars in the nation not primarily because paper dollars were more favorable, but because MANY AMERICANS COULD NOT DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND QUARTERS!!! (Let's see - The coins state ONE DOLLAR or ONE QUARTER on them. Not good enough I suppose). I go to Vietnam at this very momenti and you give me their coinage, I would have no idea (without researching it) if it were legitimate legal tender or not. The mint stopped making steel pennies after 1943 primarily because many had mistaken them for dimes.
6) Leave the government out of this, or most anything
7) What's the harm it goes back to circulation? NONE
8) "If I found one in circulation, I would start a thread!". Hmmmm, I may buy a few and put them in circ. It would be great to have a teather on them to see what happens!
9) I DO NOT suggest stamping "COPY" on the coins - Possible TPG legitimate grade dropped to "genuine, altered surfaces" and thus loss of considerable value.
I think they are really interesting, and I could buy one, show my family and none of them would "get" what it is...
10) Last point - why does the mint even date coins anyway? Is it really necessary? ONE REASON I CAN THINK OF -TO MINT PROOF SETS TO HAVE A DISTINGUISHABLE DIFFERENCE YEAR-AFTER-YEAR SO THEY CAN CONTINUE AS PROFITEERS FOR PROFIT ON AN ON-GOING YEAR-AFTER-YEAR BASIS.
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them >>
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date? The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
It's familiar ground this "blame the victim" thing here in the US isnt it ? It's not the people who make meths or crack's fault people get hooked either , it doesnt make it right. Its not the fault of the manufacturer that a child steps on one of their landmines 20 years down the line either , i see what your saying , doesnt make it right. The 1975 effort isnt even more woeful , im surprised it hasnt made it's debut here as yet. >>
Victim? Geeze. Sorry, I forgot, everyone's a victim now and no one has any responsibility for their own actions, or in this case, their own knowledge or lack thereof... right. Sigh. This place gives me a headache sometimes. OK, then...using your same premise, all cherrypickers are crooks- because they are SPECIFICALLY taking advantage of someone else's lack of knowledge.
This isn't about "blame the victim"; it's about "you can't fix stupid" or more appropriately, "it's not my job to fix stupid". By your attempted analogies above, apparently you're assuming that Dan's pieces are made with the intent to deceive people. They aren't. People try to cash $1 million fantasy notes at banks (and one nearly succeeded in the recent past). People try to spend tokens and fantasy coins and coin shaped silver rounds and Eradicane advertising "quarters" and more....none of which were made with the intent to defraud anyone...and some are successful. That's not the fault of the people who made them. >>
If you'd paid attention you'd realise it was yourself that sought to lay blame or in thise case ask that the maker not be blamed , in this manner you created the blame game which of course always has it's "victim". I tend not to presume peoples contentions or 2nd guess them , assuming this or that isnt making your argument anymore valid. The much more interesting question seems to be one Mr Carr himself could answer but noticably didnt in this last little Q&A session , funny that it was the only question that went unanswered. Why are the kennedy overstrikes not got the DC or any other mark as seen in the overstrike ASE ?
<<10) Last point - why does the mint even date coins anyway? Is it really necessary? ONE REASON I CAN THINK OF -TO MINT PROOF SETS TO HAVE A DISTINGUISHABLE DIFFERENCE YEAR-AFTER-YEAR SO THEY CAN CONTINUE AS PROFITEERS FOR PROFIT ON AN ON-GOING YEAR-AFTER-YEAR BASIS.>>
I can't say I enjoy the idea of having someone strike "fantasy" pieces from original coins, what a waste of perfectly fine coinage.
But, would it not be the same if I were to take an 1964 Kennedy Half and just carve a "3" from the last number in the date? Sure, it'd be crude, but it'd be essentially the same idea, and it only involves moving around metal. Would I go to jail?
Say I become skilled at re-carving these dates and make them look nicer. Would I be a criminal to sell them at $20 a pop as novelties? They are essentially 1964 Half Dollars and not fakes in any manner.
<<I can't say I enjoy the idea of having someone strike "fantasy" pieces from original coins, what a waste of perfectly fine coinage.>>
I too. I recall some strike, I think it was gold(?), I pondered the coins used. Even the silver - some collector, maybe as kid who can only afford a lower grade common date, would enjoy owning it.
Is there an analogous art form, apart from something like hobo nickels or perhaps graffiti, where the copied "new" work is produced from and on a destructed original?
I gotta say I like the original pieces better myself. DC is an artist, and a great coin designer. The copies are great copies, but it's a little like Renoir trying to copy the Mona Lisa. No matter how good it is, it's not the original.
The tinkling panda is my favorite. And I'm serious about that.
<< <i>I can't say I enjoy the idea of having someone strike "fantasy" pieces from original coins, what a waste of perfectly fine coinage.
But, would it not be the same if I were to take an 1964 Kennedy Half and just carve a "3" from the last number in the date? Sure, it'd be crude, but it'd be essentially the same idea, and it only involves moving around metal. Would I go to jail?
Say I become skilled at re-carving these dates and make them look nicer. Would I be a criminal to sell them at $20 a pop as novelties? They are essentially 1964 Half Dollars and not fakes in any manner. >>
Re-carving and copying are quite different my friend, unless you're re-carving the exact design someone else had created.
How many here would feel like a "victum" if they received a Dan Carr creation in change?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How many here would feel like a "victum" if they received a Dan Carr creation in change? >>
True. Plus, the only possible ones that could actually make in into circulation are the Kennedy's, the Franklins or the Ike's. The balance of the designs no one at the local 7/11 would recognize or accept. I doubt even the Franklin. I think the combined mintage of these three coins is under a 1000 or around there. So someone would have to accidentally spend one (most of these have silver or high silver content) in the wild. So the odds of you receiving one in change is so remote that it's unthinkable or incalculable. Worst then mega millions odds. When do you ever get a Franklin, Ike or Kennedy in change without asking? Let alone one in silver with a mintage less then a 1000 (and probably only a handful of these 1000 remotely coins slipping into circulation)? Pffftttt. Weak cabbage. someone is actually worried about this? Really?
You should be so lucky.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>The much more interesting question seems to be one Mr Carr himself could answer but noticably didnt in this last little Q&A session , funny that it was the only question that went unanswered. Why are the kennedy overstrikes not got the DC or any other mark as seen in the overstrike ASE ? >>
I presented the DC marked ASE simply because folks asked if he ever marked the coins.
As for adding a DC to a "1963" or "1975" Kennedy? Do you think for 1 second that the folks who do not know that a 1963 Kennedy was minted would even have a clue about what "DC" even meant?
I do recall one lady selling Jefferson nickels on eBay as FS coins that weren't even close to Full Steps! When asked why, she simply stated "Because there's an FS right on the base of the bust of the coin!" Ya think DC could be interpreted as Deep Cameo?
At this point, arguing about or even questioning the existance of a DC or some other identifying mark on the coins (such as the die scratches on the D of the 1964-D Carr Peace Dollar) is a mute point when used in conjunction with "saving" people who "might" think that the 1963 Kennedy is a rare treasure.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Thread going on 10 pages now...wonder how close to a sell-out he is on these. Usually, the longer the thread, his items sell out just because of the 'chatter' about them. >>
These threads are my main source of info on new DC products.
What if this sweet kid gets a 1975 Kennedy Half dollar under his pillow from his tooth fairy and it happens to be a Dan Carr piece and he accidentally spent it. And what if the poor person who got this Dan Carr piece spends it and it then ends up in another persons pocket. The horror. When will it stop? Make it stop please. Yes, these pieces are nothing but trouble.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<<If you'd paid attention you'd realise it was yourself that sought to lay blame or in thise case ask that the maker not be blamed , in this manner you created the blame game which of course always has it's "victim". I tend not to presume peoples contentions or 2nd guess them , assuming this or that isnt making your argument anymore valid. The much more interesting question seems to be one Mr Carr himself could answer but noticably didnt in this last little Q&A session , funny that it was the only question that went unanswered. Why are the kennedy overstrikes not got the DC or any other mark as seen in the overstrike ASE ?>>
You seem fixated on the mintmark thing. So, if he had mintmarked them somehow everyone would then magically know the difference? You yourself were the one inferring that people were too dumb to know that no 1963 JFKs were made and shouldn't be expected to know... so how does them having a mintmark make any difference?
<< <i>How many here would feel like a "victum" if they received a Dan Carr creation in change? >>
But wait... the white knights here have insisted that people must be saved from themselves...
<< <i>I can't say I enjoy the idea of having someone strike "fantasy" pieces from original coins, what a waste of perfectly fine coinage.
But, would it not be the same if I were to take an 1964 Kennedy Half and just carve a "3" from the last number in the date? Sure, it'd be crude, but it'd be essentially the same idea, and it only involves moving around metal. Would I go to jail?
Say I become skilled at re-carving these dates and make them look nicer. Would I be a criminal to sell them at $20 a pop as novelties? They are essentially 1964 Half Dollars and not fakes in any manner. >>
Re-carving and copying are quite different my friend, unless you're re-carving the exact design someone else had created. >>
What if this sweet kid gets a 1975 Kennedy Half dollar under his pillow from his tooth fairy and it happens to be a Dan Carr piece and he accidentally spent it. And what if the poor person who got this Dan Carr piece spends it and it then ends up in another persons pocket. The horror. When will it stop? Make it stop please. Yes, these pieces are nothing but trouble.
Purchasd one. I may put it in circulation some day, and will let everyone know. If I get in the mood, will buy bulk ones and send them out in different parts of the country and see what happens. Kinda like a "message in the bottle" test!!! Not joking.
Eric: My prior point about "What's the purpose of my comment regarding the date on coins"??? Just used it as another example of "A profiteer seeking to make a profit". In this case, the U.S. Mint...
<< <i>Yep, dancing on the edge of the law sure is fun! Yay! >>
That would seem to be it in a nutshell. Fun right up until the knock at the door. Ive seen some thin excuses in my day but the way people rush to give DC a pass on faking US coins is a good one. The way defenders of the great and mighty DC grasp onto anything and will even twist their own words is laughable.Theres an old saying about laughing last isnt there ? Looking at the creations one might wonder if the man ever had an original thought in his head at any point.
<<The way defenders of the great and mighty DC grasp onto anything and will even twist their own words is laughable.Theres an old saying about laughing last isnt there ? Looking at the creations one might wonder if the man ever had an original thought in his head at any point.>>
You guys done yet? lol, the longer this thread stays active, the more free advertising you are providing. Nobody's copying a US coin where a coin doesn't exist, and nobody's making counterfeits, except the Chinese, who are making copies of real coins, with real intent to defraud and with no documentation or special marks. If you can't discern the difference, then you probably have trouble with all other sorts of grey areas as well.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Purchasd one. I may put it in circulation some day, and will let everyone know. If I get in the mood, will buy bulk ones and send them out in different parts of the country and see what happens. >>
I was talking to an attorny buddy at the Justice department about the moonlight mint over lunch. He suspected that his biggest crime might be the manufacturing of replica dies and the possession of dies that mimic US issues more than the altering of old coins. He said the manufacturing of dies for active currencies would be likely to get a responce form a local branch chief if brought to their attention but he said it was trivial in scope. He said the possession of dies deemed counterfeit in conjunction with a excessesed government press could criminalize the whole operation and add various conspiracy charges. He said the burden for counterfit dies is much much lower then you would think, he would have to look up the details but the date and what not didn't matter. He also noted that anybody who didn't think that even the must junior of staff attorneys couldn't find enough law to shut him down and send him into years of legal nightmares didn't really know how the law worked.
Just an interesting conversation and a new perspective into the whole issue.
<< <i>Nobody's copying a US coin where a coin doesn't exist, >>
It doesn't matter the date you put on it. You make a product that is 90%-98% similar to an existing product then you're copying.
<< <i>braddick >>
If you're not interested in the arguments presented here, you can choose to simply ignore the thread. No need to post non-sense pictures 'cause they just make the thread longer and harder for people to follow.
Comments
<< <i>After all these Daniel Carr threads, has anyone changed his opinion?
Lance. >>
I sure doubt it Lance.
I asked DC why he won't put the word "replica" or maybe his initials on the pieces but he didn't/wouldn't respond.
I am sure that those who purchase these overstrikes would probably still do so if he put his initials in the place of a mint mark or something similar.
I think that would solve a lot of issues but....
I am not sure why he won't.
edited for spelling.
....and don't get me wrong; I respect said opinion... I simply disagree in this instance. Dan's not taking an existing piece and reengraving just one part, nor (obviously) is he reengraving an existing US Mint die; he's taking a unique die that he engraved and transforming the piece into a unique item bearing a date that never existed. In MY opinion, the coin stopped being a coin at that point and became a unique fantasy piece, albeit similar in design. Last time I checked, only the US Mint can lawfully strike legal tender pieces...so by overstriking the entire coin with new dies bearing a date that never existed in the series, it stopped being a legal tender coin at that point. And thus, the HPA wouldn't apply as it is not a copy of any genuine US Mint issue, or a "copy" of anything else for that matter.
<<Id agree , ive lost count of the counterstamped coins ive gotten in change , usually lincoln cents but altered all the same and no less legal. Im amazed at the comment that somehow the public should be aware of facts concerning a specialist hobby. That's a mind boggler.>>
Again, this isn't an instance of stamping something INTO an otherwise normal coin; it's taking totally new dies and transforming it into something different. As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? Saying Dan Carr is responsible if someone accepts one of his fantasy half dollars as legal tender is as ridiculous as blaming a casino, Chuck E. Cheese or a car wash if some nimrod accepts one of their tokens as a quarter.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i><<In my somewhat learned opinion, they are indeed legal tender. If you expertly engraved a new date onto an existing American coin, it would not change the fact that coin is legal tender. Nor, IMO, does stamping a different date on a coin with a die. >>
....and don't get me wrong; I respect said opinion... I simply disagree in this instance. Dan's not taking an existing piece and reengraving just one part, nor (obviously) is he reengraving an existing US Mint die; he's taking a unique die that he engraved and transforming the piece into a unique item bearing a date that never existed. In MY opinion, the coin stopped being a coin at that point and became a unique fantasy piece, albeit similar in design. Last time I checked, only the US Mint can lawfully strike legal tender pieces...so by overstriking the entire coin with new dies bearing a date that never existed in the series, it stopped being a legal tender coin at that point. And thus, the HPA wouldn't apply as it is not a copy of any genuine US Mint issue, or a "copy" of anything else for that matter.
<<Id agree , ive lost count of the counterstamped coins ive gotten in change , usually lincoln cents but altered all the same and no less legal. Im amazed at the comment that somehow the public should be aware of facts concerning a specialist hobby. That's a mind boggler.>>
Again, this isn't an instance of stamping something INTO an otherwise normal coin; it's taking totally new dies and transforming it into something different. As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? Saying Dan Carr is responsible if someone accepts one of his fantasy half dollars as legal tender is as ridiculous as blaming a casino, Chuck E. Cheese or a car wash if some nimrod accepts one of their tokens as a quarter. >>
Something totally different ...that looks exactly like US currency , are you seriously saying a chucky cheese token could be confused as a US Quarter or are you just not thinking clearly today ? I too would love to hear why Mr Carr wont put his mark on his products , any thoughts there?
<< <i>As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? >>
Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?
<< <i>
<< <i>As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? >>
Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation? >>
Curious why this matters.
The host coin is a genuine coin struck for circulation by the U.S. Mint.
That original coin is then altered, so to speak, and if it were to end up back in circulation, what is the harm?
peacockcoins
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<< <i>As to the public... people who work with money daily are issued such things as counterfeit detection pens and the like because they are supposed to know what genuine currency looks like. Why do they get a pass when it comes to coins? >>
Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation? >>
Curious why this matters.
The host coin is a genuine coin struck for circulation by the U.S. Mint.
That original coin is then altered, so to speak, and if it were to end up back in circulation, what is the harm? >>
I don't know- maybe because the claim was made that:
"by overstriking the entire coin with new dies bearing a date that never existed in the series, it stopped being a legal tender coin at that point..."
and it seems to be expected that cashiers can identify items that are not legal tender?
Good point.
peacockcoins
Well, just Love coins, period.
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them
<< <i>What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
No, he's not responsible for what other people know (or don't know) but he is responsible for producing something that can create that sort of confusion. Whether or not it's his problem is another issue.
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<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date?
The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date?
The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
It's familiar ground this "blame the victim" thing here in the US isnt it ? It's not the people who make meths or crack's fault people get hooked either , it doesnt make it right. Its not the fault of the manufacturer that a child steps on one of their landmines 20 years down the line either , i see what your saying , doesnt make it right. The 1975 effort isnt even more woeful , im surprised it hasnt made it's debut here as yet.
If that happens I'll be sure to start a bragging thread!
peacockcoins
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I must agree with James Murray here. These 50 cent items would be accepted at a convenience store. That seems a problem.
Eric >>
So it's Dan's fault that some people are ignorant of the fact that no 1963 Kennedys were ever made?
----------------------------------------------------
<<He is not nor has he ever been representing his creations as legal tender nor has he ever attempted to use them as such. >>
<<I disagree. In fact, I think the entire basis for not having to put copy on the coins is that they ARE legal tender. By overstriking a different date onto a legal tender coin, that thorny issue of counterfeit or copy is sidestepped.>>
The reason that it's not necessary to stamp COPY on them isn't because anyone's calling them legal tender-they aren't; it's not necessary to stamp COPY on them because you can't copy something that never existed in the first place. The only pieces where you could even get minor traction with a contrarian argument would be the 64-D pieces, and since they were never officially issued or monetized, that argument would also fail.
Edit to add- before someone brings up the replica 1933 Saints with "COPY" on them.... at least one of the original 1933 pieces has been monetized- so the HPA would apply there. Not so with the 64-D Peace Dollars. >>
In my somewhat learned opinion, they are indeed legal tender. If you expertly engraved a new date onto an existing American coin, it would not change the fact that coin is legal tender. Nor, IMO, does stamping a different date on a coin with a die. >>
Id agree , ive lost count of the counterstamped coins ive gotten in change , usually lincoln cents but altered all the same and no less legal. Im amazed at the comment that somehow the public should be aware of facts concerning a specialist hobby. That's a mind boggler. >>
So, exactly what do you do with these "counterstruck" cents anyway?
Do you destroy them? Send them to the Secret Service? Drive down to the Police Station and turn them in? What?
The name is LEE!
<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him. >>
Here's one he mint marked:
The name is LEE!
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<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date?
The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
It's familiar ground this "blame the victim" thing here in the US isnt it ? It's not the people who make meths or crack's fault people get hooked either , it doesnt make it right. Its not the fault of the manufacturer that a child steps on one of their landmines 20 years down the line either , i see what your saying , doesnt make it right. The 1975 effort isnt even more woeful , im surprised it hasnt made it's debut here as yet. >>
Victim? Geeze. Sorry, I forgot, everyone's a victim now and no one has any responsibility for their own actions, or in this case, their own knowledge or lack thereof... right. Sigh. This place gives me a headache sometimes.
OK, then...using your same premise, all cherrypickers are crooks- because they are SPECIFICALLY taking advantage of someone else's lack of knowledge.
This isn't about "blame the victim"; it's about "you can't fix stupid" or more appropriately, "it's not my job to fix stupid". By your attempted analogies above, apparently you're assuming that Dan's pieces are made with the intent to deceive people. They aren't. People try to cash $1 million fantasy notes at banks (and one nearly succeeded in the recent past). People try to spend tokens and fantasy coins and coin shaped silver rounds and Eradicane advertising "quarters" and more....none of which were made with the intent to defraud anyone...and some are successful. That's not the fault of the people who made them.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Thread going on 10 pages now...wonder how close to a sell-out he is on these. Usually, the longer the thread, his items sell out just because of the 'chatter' about them. >>
Earlier, somebody asked why he didn't put "COPY" on these things.
Just sayin...
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<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him. >>
Here's one he mint marked:
Did he do right and put that on one of the overstrikes.....or is that on one of his silver rounds ?
Because if it is not on one of his overstrikes than you know it does not apply to this discussion.
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<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem.
Edit to add: As to why he doesn't mintmark his items... I have no idea as it's none of my concern. Suggest you ask him. >>
Here's one he mint marked:
Did he do right and put that on one of the overstrikes.....or is that on one of his silver rounds ?
Because if it is not on one of his overstrikes than you know it does not apply to this discussion. >>
That is an overstrucik silver eagle. Note the slight misalignment between the understrike and the overstrike on the E of FINE and elsewhere.
I wish this was done on all the overstrikes.
<< <<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
<<What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them >>
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date?
The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
OK, sure. But a tiny step to avoid any confusion ay all could be so easy to take. Of what purpose is having this controversy going and re-stirred all the time. ... .. .
Eric
1) cryptp79: "profiteer who is exploiting our hobby for profit." Interesting if true - because that has never HAPPENED BEFORE!!!!
I think it is great for the hobby - spikes interest. So many are envious of those that make a profit. Who knows if he even is - All his time to put this together, supplies, etc., and if so, GOOD FOR HIM!!!
2) Too pricey for your interest? No one is making you buy one. How many of you have spent $100 a night going out for dinner for two (eating at home is 10 bucks), or a $100 night at the bar or what have you? Stay home one of those nights, and get one. You would at least have SOMETHING to show for your money spent...
3) Braddick:
4) "Does this also apply to dipping?" oh no, here we go again...
5) James Murry: "Are you serious saying a chucky cheese token could be confused for a quarter?"
Absolutely - Telephoto1 is thinking quite clearly. I've seen it all and read it all. The employees for a firm that got $1,000,000 Statue of Liberty bills at a Christmas Party thinking they were real??? (News). The mint surrendering the hopeful acceptance of Susan B. Anthony coin dollars in the nation not primarily because paper dollars were more favorable, but because MANY AMERICANS COULD NOT DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND QUARTERS!!! (Let's see - The coins state ONE DOLLAR or ONE QUARTER on them. Not good enough I suppose). I go to Vietnam at this very momenti and you give me their coinage, I would have no idea (without researching it) if it were legitimate legal tender or not. The mint stopped making steel pennies after 1943 primarily because many had mistaken them for dimes.
6) Leave the government out of this, or most anything
7) What's the harm it goes back to circulation? NONE
8) "If I found one in circulation, I would start a thread!". Hmmmm, I may buy a few and put them in circ. It would be great to have a teather on them to see what happens!
9) I DO NOT suggest stamping "COPY" on the coins - Possible TPG legitimate grade dropped to "genuine, altered surfaces" and thus loss of considerable value.
I think they are really interesting, and I could buy one, show my family and none of them would "get" what it is...
10) Last point - why does the mint even date coins anyway? Is it really necessary? ONE REASON I CAN THINK OF -TO MINT PROOF SETS TO HAVE A DISTINGUISHABLE DIFFERENCE YEAR-AFTER-YEAR SO THEY CAN CONTINUE AS PROFITEERS FOR PROFIT ON AN ON-GOING YEAR-AFTER-YEAR BASIS.
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<< <i><<Is it reasonable to expect cashiers to check all the coins they receive to identify the date/mm combination and to know which are and aren't legitimate for all the different coins in circulation?>>
What I'm saying is that it's UNreasonable to hold Dan responsible for those who DON'T know. That's not his problem. >>
WoW ... that's a cop out of monumental proportion is it not ? Don't hold DC responsible cos he only makes them
So it's your contention that anyone striking privately made items should first do perhaps- a mass mailing to every man, woman, and child in the world telling them that there were no coins actually minted with XXXX date?
The fact still remains uncontroverted that the OP coin was never issued by the mint with a 1963 date...so in what universe is it the MAKER'S fault that someone else may not know that?
Cop out? Hardly. More like common sense. >>
It's familiar ground this "blame the victim" thing here in the US isnt it ? It's not the people who make meths or crack's fault people get hooked either , it doesnt make it right. Its not the fault of the manufacturer that a child steps on one of their landmines 20 years down the line either , i see what your saying , doesnt make it right. The 1975 effort isnt even more woeful , im surprised it hasnt made it's debut here as yet. >>
Victim? Geeze. Sorry, I forgot, everyone's a victim now and no one has any responsibility for their own actions, or in this case, their own knowledge or lack thereof... right. Sigh. This place gives me a headache sometimes.
OK, then...using your same premise, all cherrypickers are crooks- because they are SPECIFICALLY taking advantage of someone else's lack of knowledge.
This isn't about "blame the victim"; it's about "you can't fix stupid" or more appropriately, "it's not my job to fix stupid". By your attempted analogies above, apparently you're assuming that Dan's pieces are made with the intent to deceive people. They aren't. People try to cash $1 million fantasy notes at banks (and one nearly succeeded in the recent past). People try to spend tokens and fantasy coins and coin shaped silver rounds and Eradicane advertising "quarters" and more....none of which were made with the intent to defraud anyone...and some are successful. That's not the fault of the people who made them. >>
If you'd paid attention you'd realise it was yourself that sought to lay blame or in thise case ask that the maker not be blamed , in this manner you created the blame game which of course always has it's "victim". I tend not to presume peoples contentions or 2nd guess them , assuming this or that isnt making your argument anymore valid. The much more interesting question seems to be one Mr Carr himself could answer but noticably didnt in this last little Q&A session , funny that it was the only question that went unanswered. Why are the kennedy overstrikes not got the DC or any other mark as seen in the overstrike ASE ?
Why do you mention this?
Eric
But, would it not be the same if I were to take an 1964 Kennedy Half and just carve a "3" from the last number in the date? Sure, it'd be crude, but it'd be essentially the same idea, and it only involves moving around metal. Would I go to jail?
Say I become skilled at re-carving these dates and make them look nicer. Would I be a criminal to sell them at $20 a pop as novelties? They are essentially 1964 Half Dollars and not fakes in any manner.
I too. I recall some strike, I think it was gold(?), I pondered the coins used. Even the silver - some collector, maybe as kid who can only afford a lower grade common date, would enjoy owning it.
Is there an analogous art form, apart from something like hobo nickels or perhaps graffiti, where the copied "new" work is produced from and on a destructed original?
Eric
The tinkling panda is my favorite. And I'm serious about that.
<< <i>I can't say I enjoy the idea of having someone strike "fantasy" pieces from original coins, what a waste of perfectly fine coinage.
But, would it not be the same if I were to take an 1964 Kennedy Half and just carve a "3" from the last number in the date? Sure, it'd be crude, but it'd be essentially the same idea, and it only involves moving around metal. Would I go to jail?
Say I become skilled at re-carving these dates and make them look nicer. Would I be a criminal to sell them at $20 a pop as novelties? They are essentially 1964 Half Dollars and not fakes in any manner. >>
Re-carving and copying are quite different my friend, unless you're re-carving the exact design someone else had created.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How many here would feel like a "victum" if they received a Dan Carr creation in change? >>
True. Plus, the only possible ones that could actually make in into circulation are the Kennedy's, the Franklins or the Ike's. The balance of the designs no one at the local 7/11 would recognize or accept. I doubt even the Franklin. I think the combined mintage of these three coins is under a 1000 or around there. So someone would have to accidentally spend one (most of these have silver or high silver content) in the wild. So the odds of you receiving one in change is so remote that it's unthinkable or incalculable. Worst then mega millions odds. When do you ever get a Franklin, Ike or Kennedy in change without asking? Let alone one in silver with a mintage less then a 1000 (and probably only a handful of these 1000 remotely coins slipping into circulation)? Pffftttt. Weak cabbage. someone is actually worried about this? Really?
You should be so lucky.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>The much more interesting question seems to be one Mr Carr himself could answer but noticably didnt in this last little Q&A session , funny that it was the only question that went unanswered. Why are the kennedy overstrikes not got the DC or any other mark as seen in the overstrike ASE ? >>
I presented the DC marked ASE simply because folks asked if he ever marked the coins.
As for adding a DC to a "1963" or "1975" Kennedy? Do you think for 1 second that the folks who do not know that a 1963 Kennedy was minted would even have a clue about what "DC" even meant?
I do recall one lady selling Jefferson nickels on eBay as FS coins that weren't even close to Full Steps! When asked why, she simply stated "Because there's an FS right on the base of the bust of the coin!" Ya think DC could be interpreted as Deep Cameo?
At this point, arguing about or even questioning the existance of a DC or some other identifying mark on the coins (such as the die scratches on the D of the 1964-D Carr Peace Dollar) is a mute point when used in conjunction with "saving" people who "might" think that the 1963 Kennedy is a rare treasure.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Thread going on 10 pages now...wonder how close to a sell-out he is on these. Usually, the longer the thread, his items sell out just because of the 'chatter' about them. >>
These threads are my main source of info on new DC products.
peacockcoins
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What if this sweet kid gets a 1975 Kennedy Half dollar under his pillow from his tooth fairy and it happens to be a Dan Carr piece and he accidentally spent it. And what if the poor person who got this Dan Carr piece spends it and it then ends up in another persons pocket. The horror. When will it stop? Make it stop please. Yes, these pieces are nothing but trouble.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You seem fixated on the mintmark thing. So, if he had mintmarked them somehow everyone would then magically know the difference? You yourself were the one inferring that people were too dumb to know that no 1963 JFKs were made and shouldn't be expected to know... so how does them having a mintmark make any difference?
<< <i>How many here would feel like a "victum" if they received a Dan Carr creation in change? >>
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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<< <i>I can't say I enjoy the idea of having someone strike "fantasy" pieces from original coins, what a waste of perfectly fine coinage.
But, would it not be the same if I were to take an 1964 Kennedy Half and just carve a "3" from the last number in the date? Sure, it'd be crude, but it'd be essentially the same idea, and it only involves moving around metal. Would I go to jail?
Say I become skilled at re-carving these dates and make them look nicer. Would I be a criminal to sell them at $20 a pop as novelties? They are essentially 1964 Half Dollars and not fakes in any manner. >>
Re-carving and copying are quite different my friend, unless you're re-carving the exact design someone else had created. >>
Yes...that was the point I was trying to make...
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What if this sweet kid gets a 1975 Kennedy Half dollar under his pillow from his tooth fairy and it happens to be a Dan Carr piece and he accidentally spent it. And what if the poor person who got this Dan Carr piece spends it and it then ends up in another persons pocket. The horror. When will it stop? Make it stop please. Yes, these pieces are nothing but trouble.
MJ >>
Eric:
My prior point about "What's the purpose of my comment regarding the date on coins"??? Just used it as another example of "A profiteer seeking to make a profit". In this case, the U.S. Mint...
<< <i>Yep, dancing on the edge of the law sure is fun! Yay!
That would seem to be it in a nutshell. Fun right up until the knock at the door. Ive seen some thin excuses in my day but the way people rush to give DC a pass on faking US coins is a good one. The way defenders of the great and mighty DC grasp onto anything and will even twist their own words is laughable.Theres an old saying about laughing last isnt there ? Looking at the creations one might wonder if the man ever had an original thought in his head at any point.
You guys done yet? lol, the longer this thread stays active, the more free advertising you are providing. Nobody's copying a US coin where a coin doesn't exist, and nobody's making counterfeits, except the Chinese, who are making copies of real coins, with real intent to defraud and with no documentation or special marks. If you can't discern the difference, then you probably have trouble with all other sorts of grey areas as well.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Purchasd one. I may put it in circulation some day, and will let everyone know. If I get in the mood, will buy bulk ones and send them out in different parts of the country and see what happens. >>
I dare ya
Just an interesting conversation and a new perspective into the whole issue.
<< <i>Nobody's copying a US coin where a coin doesn't exist, >>
It doesn't matter the date you put on it. You make a product that is 90%-98% similar to an existing product then you're copying.
<< <i>braddick >>
If you're not interested in the arguments presented here, you can choose to simply ignore the thread. No need to post non-sense pictures 'cause they just make the thread longer and harder for people to follow.
Oh, ok. Sorry about that.
Just wanted to lighten the mood a little.
Back to the debate. . .
peacockcoins
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
peacockcoins