A tale of three 1884-CC $20's from tonight's Heritage sale
RYK
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Coin A (PCGS XF-40 OGH)
Coin B (PCGS XF-40 OGH CAC Gold)
Coin C (NGC AU-53)
Going into the FUN sale, I knew that I would be very interested in Coin B. It is a dead ringer for an 1884-CC $20 in my collection (image below), it is from the same submission, and it has the filthy RYK look that I try to buy whenever I see it. It was my highest priority in the FUN sale.
For information and education purposes, there were two important comps, the lot immediately preceding and the one immediately following (Coins A and C, above). The lazy observer will look at the images and say that RYK overpaid for the coin with the green holder and the sticker, and there may be a kernal of truth to that. No one likely valued the coin as much as I did, in part for its association to the coin I already own, one of the favorites in my collection.
I discussed these three coins with Dimeman and Stone in the Heritage viewing room. When you study Coin A in person, it is immediately apparent that there is a hideous dark mark on the obverse that someone likely tried to hide with putty at some time, probably before being submitted for grading. The putty has since clumped and created an unnatural splotchy haze that is not very noticeable in the photo, but very clear in person. Coin B is substantially nicer than Coin A. It is not even close.
Coin C makes for an interesting comparison, also. Again, on the surface, it is an AU-53, and RYK obviously overvalues green holder and stickers because he could have had an acceptable NGC graded coin (a higher grade by three grades!) for less money. However, when you compare Coin B and Coin C, side by side, Coin C has a uniform light yellow color such as one sees when the coin has been dipped (and sometimes more!) while Coin B has dirt and grunge in recessed areas and dark discoloration on the high points, some underlying luster beneath the patina, and an overall original look that some of us consider to be cat's meow of original circulated gold. The level of detail or "meat" between the two coins, was quite similar, but the degree of originality was considerably different.
So, if you take away the green labels and gold stickers and broke the three coins out of the slabs, experienced collectors of circulated gold coins would value Coin B the most, Coin C in the middle, and Coin A the least. Lo and behold, that is how the market values them, too, as seen in the auction.
Coin B (PCGS XF-40 OGH CAC Gold)
Coin C (NGC AU-53)
Going into the FUN sale, I knew that I would be very interested in Coin B. It is a dead ringer for an 1884-CC $20 in my collection (image below), it is from the same submission, and it has the filthy RYK look that I try to buy whenever I see it. It was my highest priority in the FUN sale.
For information and education purposes, there were two important comps, the lot immediately preceding and the one immediately following (Coins A and C, above). The lazy observer will look at the images and say that RYK overpaid for the coin with the green holder and the sticker, and there may be a kernal of truth to that. No one likely valued the coin as much as I did, in part for its association to the coin I already own, one of the favorites in my collection.
I discussed these three coins with Dimeman and Stone in the Heritage viewing room. When you study Coin A in person, it is immediately apparent that there is a hideous dark mark on the obverse that someone likely tried to hide with putty at some time, probably before being submitted for grading. The putty has since clumped and created an unnatural splotchy haze that is not very noticeable in the photo, but very clear in person. Coin B is substantially nicer than Coin A. It is not even close.
Coin C makes for an interesting comparison, also. Again, on the surface, it is an AU-53, and RYK obviously overvalues green holder and stickers because he could have had an acceptable NGC graded coin (a higher grade by three grades!) for less money. However, when you compare Coin B and Coin C, side by side, Coin C has a uniform light yellow color such as one sees when the coin has been dipped (and sometimes more!) while Coin B has dirt and grunge in recessed areas and dark discoloration on the high points, some underlying luster beneath the patina, and an overall original look that some of us consider to be cat's meow of original circulated gold. The level of detail or "meat" between the two coins, was quite similar, but the degree of originality was considerably different.
So, if you take away the green labels and gold stickers and broke the three coins out of the slabs, experienced collectors of circulated gold coins would value Coin B the most, Coin C in the middle, and Coin A the least. Lo and behold, that is how the market values them, too, as seen in the auction.
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Comments
An interesting view of the 3 coins. It would seem to me that coin A went too cheap and coin B went for too much. Being just a dumb gold bug who likes .9675 ounces of gold,
I'd have probably taken coin A. Hard to think that the gold sticker didn't add $500 or more to the price of coin B even if a bump from XF40 to XF45 would not be worth that amount.
All of this will be moot in 3-7 years when all three coins are valued the same (ie at around spot gold price)
<< <i>While I agree with what you have said, it might be more meaningful if coin C was an OGH. Some people will pay up for plastic and unless you know the underbidder, there is no way to know for certain. >>
I am not sure what knowing the the under bidder has to do with it. Yes, it would be nice to have all coins in the same vintage holder, but part of the lesson is that holders cannot be completely trusted. They are just one piece of information, and it may or may not be helpful in making your decision.
<< <i>
<< <i>While I agree with what you have said, it might be more meaningful if coin C was an OGH. Some people will pay up for plastic and unless you know the underbidder, there is no way to know for certain. >>
I am not sure what knowing the the under bidder has to do with it. Yes, it would be nice to have all coins in the same vintage holder, but part of the lesson is that holders cannot be completely trusted. They are just one piece of information, and it may or may not be helpful in making your decision. >>
I agree about holders being just one piece of information. My point about the underbidder was that we cannot tease apart with reasonable certainty what was going through the other bidders' minds when they bid on the coin. The coin could have sold for less because it was less original, or alternatively, it could have sold for less because some people won't even look or bid on NGC coins. Reduced interest can easily translate into lower prices even if only two bidders (the winner and the underbidder) determine the hammer price.
Admittedly not following the gold market the way you do, my initial reaction was you paid very strong for that coin. Like AU58 strong.
I didn't realize such coins fetched such a premium. The closest parallel I can draw is the premium for original old copper...and it tends not to run that strong -- a grade or three and nowhere near 40->58.
Is this type of premium typical for coins like this? Is there something I'm missing (gold CAC & OGH notwithstanding)?
Just curious...Mike
<< <i>It's a no-brainer you picked the most original of the three, even from the photos. Congrats on your NEWP. >>
Ditto.
Coin Rarities Online
Yes, I admittedly did. For me, it was the kind of coin that you ignore the holder grade, the actual grade, market pricing, etc., but in fact, now that I saw the prices realized of the two other coins in the sale, the pricing was not as absurd as I would have initially thought.
BTW, the best of the CAC gold OGH $20's may have been the 55-S. I was the under bidder for that one, and it was stunning. Same with the 1850 $20. You just do not see theses coins on the market with this appearance, and if you want them, you have to pay up. Or just let the next guy have them.
The VF-35 1850-O DE was an interesting lot. It sold for AU money. I thought it would have been the best one in terms of value given the potential jump in grade/value. Look though that it traded at an aggressive price.
Any thoughts on that lot?
Thanks
Makes me picture you with a mustache and long trench coat wandering Sauget looking for dirty "gold".
siliconvalleycoins.com
PT, the coin is the sum of its parts, and I prefer to look at the forest, rather than each individual tree, except when the tree is on fire (like that horrible dark mark on Coin A.
CL, sorry about that!
Folks, why does it say this on the auction lot page:
"Make Offer:
This item's Owner is proactively entertaining Offers. "
I am most certainly not entertaining offers!
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>It creeps me out when you talk about yourself in the third person....and even more so when you switch back and forth from 1st to 3rd.
Makes me picture you with a mustache and long trench coat wandering Sauget looking for dirty "gold". >>
"...The lazy observer will look at the images and say that RYK overpaid for the coin with the green holder and the sticker, and there may be a kernal of truth to that. No one likely valued the coin as much as I did..." Is that really a shift from third person to first person? I think not. RYK shifted from a first person narrative to third person subjective mode.
"The third-person subjective is when the narrator conveys the thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. of one or more characters. If it is just one character, it can be termed third-person limited, in which the reader is "limited" to the thoughts of some particular character..." (in this case the lazy observer).
<< <i>Folks, why does it say this on the auction lot page:
"Make Offer:
This item's Owner is proactively entertaining Offers. "
I am most certainly not entertaining offers! >>
RYK, go to ha.com->My Heritage->My Collection and click on a coin. From there you can set your preferences per coin, on whether you want to accept offers or not. Even if someone made an offer, you can choose to decline or ignore it.
<< <i>EA, yes I did like the 50-O $20, also, but I from a price/value consideration, I did not like it as much. Additionally, I had a friend that was interested in it, so I did not spend a lot of time considering bidding on it.
PT, the coin is the sum of its parts, and I prefer to look at the forest, rather than each individual tree, except when the tree is on fire (like that horrible dark mark on Coin A.
CL, sorry about that!
Folks, why does it say this on the auction lot page:
"Make Offer:
This item's Owner is proactively entertaining Offers. "
I am most certainly not entertaining offers! >>
Its a feature that gives Heritage the opportunity to make another 10% profit on the flip. It appears that the minimum offer is set at 20% above what you paid with juice. Therefore, you will get at least 10% on the flip as well.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.