<< <i>These threads are pointless because most folks who aren't Yankees fans are blinded by their HATE of the Yankees and not capable of rational thought.
I won't mention names here but the anti-Yankee folks are obvious - they are the ones that won't reply to facts WITH facts - they reply with name calling.
Don Mattingly is a HOFer if he wasn't a Yankee. Baseball writers and voters hate the Yankees for the most part, and make biased decisions accordingly. (Please see 2006 A.L. MVP voting for proof of this). >>
I'd suggest the reverse is often the case as well. BTW, a quick look at B-R shows his case for the HOF is marginal, neither screaming "yes" or "no". IOW, worse guys have gotten in, but better guys have gotten left out too.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>These threads are pointless because most folks who aren't Yankees fans are blinded by their HATE of the Yankees and not capable of rational thought.
I won't mention names here but the anti-Yankee folks are obvious - they are the ones that won't reply to facts WITH facts - they reply with name calling.
Don Mattingly is a HOFer if he wasn't a Yankee. Baseball writers and voters hate the Yankees for the most part, and make biased decisions accordingly. (Please see 2006 A.L. MVP voting for proof of this). >>
I'd suggest the reverse is often the case as well. BTW, a quick look at B-R shows his case for the HOF is marginal, neither screaming "yes" or "no". IOW, worse guys have gotten in, but better guys have gotten left out too.
<< <i>Another issue with Puckett vs Mattingly, Puckett is clearly top 10 all time in centerfield. Say #8. >>
>>
PUCKETT NEVER GOT TO FINISH HIS CAREER. Clearly accumulative stats like WAR and JAWS will be lower than they would have been had he been able to finish his career. 3-5 more years and he would be right up there with the great CFs. When playing, he was a 5-tool talent. Mattingly was always a 4-tool player. >>
I like Puckett and have no problem with him being in the HOF, but he was not a 5-tool player. He didn't have a big arm for one. Genuine five tool players are rare and I think the term is used way too often. I love Mattingly. He is my favorite player of all-time; however, I don't think he is HOF-worthy. Had he not hurt his back, I think he would have made it. >>
I had to jump in when I saw the comment that Puckett didn't have a big arm. I watched him play in person at least 200 times and he had a cannon for an arm. He only ended up with 142 outfield assists because players flat out wouldn't run on him. He not only had a strong arm but he had a very accurate arm as well. >>
That's fair. I never saw him play in person. However, I still don't view him as a legitimate 5 Tool guy. I think he could hit, field, and maybe even throw. Power and speed are debatable (in terms of being great). He was good in all areas, great in a couple. Just my opinion. He was a great player no matter. I guess this too is simply a matter of perspective. When I think of legit 5 tool guys I think of guys like Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Bonds, Winfield, Dawsonl, ARod, Mike Trout, maybe even Ryan Braun. I look for the player to be well-above average across the board.
Anyhow, it's interesting to read everyone's opinions on these two players.
<< <i>These threads are pointless because most folks who aren't Yankees fans are blinded by their HATE of the Yankees and not capable of rational thought. >>
Untrue.
For the record, I hate the Yankees -- have for 40 years. In fact, as a youngster growing up in NYC, I was elated in 1976 when the Reds swept them (and yes, the next 2 years after, 77/78 were quite painful). But I digress.
I am a firm believer that the Puckett-Mattingly argument of them being equal is COMPLETELY VALID (either they both get in or both don't), even though I hate them.
And if I had to choose, I say 'no' to either. (I also say no to Tony Perez, Andre Dawson and Jim Rice, but once again I digress.)
I'm even more shocked that Puckett was a first-ballot, when there are a handful of SUPERSTARS (sorry, can't find the right link now) who were superior to Puckett, who did not make it on their first try.
How are off the field issues related to HOF candidacy? >>
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. >>
Pretty sure most of this stuff came out after he was already inducted.
<< <i>MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly it's just not fair that you keep comparing a CF to a 1B when it comes to hitting. If you ever got very far or had a kid get far in Baseball, for reference my brother in law had a short MLB career and my kid excelled all the way until he joined the Marines out of HS. You are generally at first base because you are skilled at mashing the ball but generally don't possess the skills to play to many other positions. >>
Mattingly wasn't being hidden at first base. He was one of the best defensive 1B of all time. Probably the best ever in the American League. >>
He wasn't, you think he had the range to play anywhere but a corner infield spot?
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
How are off the field issues related to HOF candidacy? >>
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. >>
Pretty sure most of this stuff came out after he was already inducted. >>
I think he started beating the woman in his life as soon as he was retired. But I could be wrong. >>
You sure could be wrong. Unless you know something we don't? I said this stuff CAME OUT after the fact. Also, the BBHOF President specifically stated that "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." means ON-THE-FIELD. The head of the BBHOF said this, so that's how the voters vote.
<< <i>That's fair. I never saw him play in person. However, I still don't view him as a legitimate 5 Tool guy. I think he could hit, field, and maybe even throw. Power and speed are debatable (in terms of being great). He was good in all areas, great in a couple. Just my opinion. He was a great player no matter. I guess this too is simply a matter of perspective. When I think of legit 5 tool guys I think of guys like Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Bonds, Winfield, Dawsonl, ARod, Mike Trout, maybe even Ryan Braun. I look for the player to be well-above average across the board. >>
I'm not sure you understand what the 5 tools ARE. Hit for average, hit for power, run, defense (catching the ball), and throwing. Barry Bonds had a noodle arm - just ask Sid Bream. Dave Winfield had a career .283 average - don't think I'd call that hitting for average. It's GOOD, don't get me wrong, but he's not a guy you would say generally hit for average (yes, I know he had a couple high average years). And so on.
<< <i>Barry Bonds had a noodle arm - just ask Sid Bream. >>
His arm wasn't that bad. His throw was strong enough to get Bream - it just was off line a bit too much. "Noodle arm" should be reserved for Johnny Damon and Bernie Williams. I'm not even sure they could reach home plate.
Bleacher Report even called Bonds' arm "strong" (although I disagree with that - I'd call it average). http://bleacherreport.com/articles/590862-mlb-power-rankings-the-25-best-outfield-arms-in-mlb-history/page/5 "There are many questions surrounding Barry Bonds' arms, but none of them are about his ability to throw a baseball. Bonds had a strong throwing arm even before he began to bulk up. As a rail-thin rookie, Bonds managed to accumulate 10 assists. The eight-time Gold Glove winner even managed to throw out 11 base runners from left field at age 39."
You throwing out Blecccchhhher report as a source?
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>You throwing out Blecccchhhher report as a source? >>
If you read what I wrote, you would see that I said I didn't agree with it. However, if Bleacher Report thinks Bonds arm was STRONG, then I think that's at least some evidence that his arm wasn't weak. I've heard other people call his arm strong too. I've never heard anyone call Bernie Williams or Johnny Damon's arm strong. Bonds had 173 assists in 24,000 innings, which is a far better assist rate than those other guys. If Bonds' infamous throw was 2 feet more to the right, Bream would have been out, and Bonds would probably be remembered as having a good arm.
<< <i>That's fair. I never saw him play in person. However, I still don't view him as a legitimate 5 Tool guy. I think he could hit, field, and maybe even throw. Power and speed are debatable (in terms of being great). He was good in all areas, great in a couple. Just my opinion. He was a great player no matter. I guess this too is simply a matter of perspective. When I think of legit 5 tool guys I think of guys like Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Bonds, Winfield, Dawsonl, ARod, Mike Trout, maybe even Ryan Braun. I look for the player to be well-above average across the board. >>
I'm not sure you understand what the 5 tools ARE. Hit for average, hit for power, run, defense (catching the ball), and throwing. Barry Bonds had a noodle arm - just ask Sid Bream. Dave Winfield had a career .283 average - don't think I'd call that hitting for average. It's GOOD, don't get me wrong, but he's not a guy you would say generally hit for average (yes, I know he had a couple high average years). And so on.
Tabe >>
It's all debatable. I can see the debate on Bonds' arm. I definitely know what the 5 tools are but I still don't think Kirby was a 5 tool player. Both Bonds and Winfield were closer at any rate in my opinion.
Comments
the garvey comment is where i think this thread went off the reservation.
<< <i>These threads are pointless because most folks who aren't Yankees fans are blinded by their HATE of the Yankees and not capable of rational thought.
I won't mention names here but the anti-Yankee folks are obvious - they are the ones that won't reply to facts WITH facts - they reply with name calling.
Don Mattingly is a HOFer if he wasn't a Yankee. Baseball writers and voters hate the Yankees for the most part, and make biased decisions accordingly. (Please see 2006 A.L. MVP voting for proof of this). >>
I'd suggest the reverse is often the case as well. BTW, a quick look at B-R shows his case for the HOF is marginal, neither screaming "yes" or "no". IOW, worse guys have gotten in, but better guys have gotten left out too.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>
<< <i>These threads are pointless because most folks who aren't Yankees fans are blinded by their HATE of the Yankees and not capable of rational thought.
I won't mention names here but the anti-Yankee folks are obvious - they are the ones that won't reply to facts WITH facts - they reply with name calling.
Don Mattingly is a HOFer if he wasn't a Yankee. Baseball writers and voters hate the Yankees for the most part, and make biased decisions accordingly. (Please see 2006 A.L. MVP voting for proof of this). >>
I'd suggest the reverse is often the case as well. BTW, a quick look at B-R shows his case for the HOF is marginal, neither screaming "yes" or "no". IOW, worse guys have gotten in, but better guys have gotten left out too.
Fair enough.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Another issue with Puckett vs Mattingly, Puckett is clearly top 10 all time in centerfield. Say #8. >>
PUCKETT NEVER GOT TO FINISH HIS CAREER. Clearly accumulative stats like WAR and JAWS will be lower than they would have been had he been able to finish his career. 3-5 more years and he would be right up there with the great CFs. When playing, he was a 5-tool talent. Mattingly was always a 4-tool player. >>
I like Puckett and have no problem with him being in the HOF, but he was not a 5-tool player. He didn't have a big arm for one. Genuine five tool players are rare and I think the term is used way too often. I love Mattingly. He is my favorite player of all-time; however, I don't think he is HOF-worthy. Had he not hurt his back, I think he would have made it. >>
I had to jump in when I saw the comment that Puckett didn't have a big arm. I watched him play in person at least 200 times and he had a cannon for an arm. He only ended up with 142 outfield assists because players flat out wouldn't run on him. He not only had a strong arm but he had a very accurate arm as well. >>
That's fair. I never saw him play in person. However, I still don't view him as a legitimate 5 Tool guy. I think he could hit, field, and maybe even throw. Power and speed are debatable (in terms of being great). He was good in all areas, great in a couple. Just my opinion. He was a great player no matter. I guess this too is simply a matter of perspective. When I think of legit 5 tool guys I think of guys like Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Bonds, Winfield, Dawsonl, ARod, Mike Trout, maybe even Ryan Braun. I look for the player to be well-above average across the board.
Anyhow, it's interesting to read everyone's opinions on these two players.
<< <i>These threads are pointless because most folks who aren't Yankees fans are blinded by their HATE of the Yankees and not capable of rational thought. >>
Untrue.
For the record, I hate the Yankees -- have for 40 years. In fact, as a youngster growing up in NYC, I was elated in 1976 when the Reds swept them (and yes, the next 2 years after, 77/78 were quite painful). But I digress.
I am a firm believer that the Puckett-Mattingly argument of them being equal is COMPLETELY VALID (either they both get in or both don't), even though I hate them.
And if I had to choose, I say 'no' to either. (I also say no to Tony Perez, Andre Dawson and Jim Rice, but once again I digress.)
I'm even more shocked that Puckett was a first-ballot, when there are a handful of SUPERSTARS (sorry, can't find the right link now) who were superior to Puckett, who did not make it on their first try.
<< <i>It's better to burn out than to fade away. >>
Things that the Kurgan would say. What did I win???
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Kirby Puckett - HOFer >>
How are off the field issues related to HOF candidacy? >>
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. >>
Pretty sure most of this stuff came out after he was already inducted.
<< <i>
<< <i>MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly it's just not fair that you keep comparing a CF to a 1B when it comes to hitting. If you ever got very far or had a kid get far in Baseball, for reference my brother in law had a short MLB career and my kid excelled all the way until he joined the Marines out of HS. You are generally at first base because you are skilled at mashing the ball but generally don't possess the skills to play to many other positions. >>
Mattingly wasn't being hidden at first base. He was one of the best defensive 1B of all time. Probably the best ever in the American League. >>
He wasn't, you think he had the range to play anywhere but a corner infield spot?
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Kirby Puckett - HOFer >>
How are off the field issues related to HOF candidacy? >>
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. >>
Pretty sure most of this stuff came out after he was already inducted. >>
I think he started beating the woman in his life as soon as he was retired. But I could be wrong. >>
You sure could be wrong. Unless you know something we don't? I said this stuff CAME OUT after the fact. Also, the BBHOF President specifically stated that "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." means ON-THE-FIELD. The head of the BBHOF said this, so that's how the voters vote.
<< <i>That's fair. I never saw him play in person. However, I still don't view him as a legitimate 5 Tool guy. I think he could hit, field, and maybe even throw. Power and speed are debatable (in terms of being great). He was good in all areas, great in a couple. Just my opinion. He was a great player no matter. I guess this too is simply a matter of perspective. When I think of legit 5 tool guys I think of guys like Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Bonds, Winfield, Dawsonl, ARod, Mike Trout, maybe even Ryan Braun. I look for the player to be well-above average across the board. >>
I'm not sure you understand what the 5 tools ARE. Hit for average, hit for power, run, defense (catching the ball), and throwing. Barry Bonds had a noodle arm - just ask Sid Bream. Dave Winfield had a career .283 average - don't think I'd call that hitting for average. It's GOOD, don't get me wrong, but he's not a guy you would say generally hit for average (yes, I know he had a couple high average years). And so on.
Tabe
<< <i>Barry Bonds had a noodle arm - just ask Sid Bream. >>
His arm wasn't that bad. His throw was strong enough to get Bream - it just was off line a bit too much. "Noodle arm" should be reserved for Johnny Damon and Bernie Williams. I'm not even sure they could reach home plate.
Bleacher Report even called Bonds' arm "strong" (although I disagree with that - I'd call it average).
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/590862-mlb-power-rankings-the-25-best-outfield-arms-in-mlb-history/page/5
"There are many questions surrounding Barry Bonds' arms, but none of them are about his ability to throw a baseball. Bonds had a strong throwing arm even before he began to bulk up. As a rail-thin rookie, Bonds managed to accumulate 10 assists. The eight-time Gold Glove winner even managed to throw out 11 base runners from left field at age 39."
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>You throwing out Blecccchhhher report as a source? >>
If you read what I wrote, you would see that I said I didn't agree with it. However, if Bleacher Report thinks Bonds arm was STRONG, then I think that's at least some evidence that his arm wasn't weak. I've heard other people call his arm strong too. I've never heard anyone call Bernie Williams or Johnny Damon's arm strong. Bonds had 173 assists in 24,000 innings, which is a far better assist rate than those other guys. If Bonds' infamous throw was 2 feet more to the right, Bream would have been out, and Bonds would probably be remembered as having a good arm.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's fair. I never saw him play in person. However, I still don't view him as a legitimate 5 Tool guy. I think he could hit, field, and maybe even throw. Power and speed are debatable (in terms of being great). He was good in all areas, great in a couple. Just my opinion. He was a great player no matter. I guess this too is simply a matter of perspective. When I think of legit 5 tool guys I think of guys like Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Bonds, Winfield, Dawsonl, ARod, Mike Trout, maybe even Ryan Braun. I look for the player to be well-above average across the board. >>
I'm not sure you understand what the 5 tools ARE. Hit for average, hit for power, run, defense (catching the ball), and throwing. Barry Bonds had a noodle arm - just ask Sid Bream. Dave Winfield had a career .283 average - don't think I'd call that hitting for average. It's GOOD, don't get me wrong, but he's not a guy you would say generally hit for average (yes, I know he had a couple high average years). And so on.
Tabe >>
It's all debatable. I can see the debate on Bonds' arm. I definitely know what the 5 tools are but I still don't think Kirby was a 5 tool player. Both Bonds and Winfield were closer at any rate in my opinion.