Only the " believers " of the 2009 Formative years varieties...

joeykoins

Hi guy's! How many of you guy's are " true believers" of the errors/varieties of the 2009 cent? I mean really,true blue believers that this series will explode in the near future?Are you willing to join and be a part of the "Formative year Club"? Only for the ones who are willing to be a follower of this gem of a coin/coins.Here's the logo,

Constantine

I will join. I am a believer and collected these from literally day one. I was the first to submit Skeleton Finger to Billy Crawford. But I do not believe they will "explode" in value. Have a decent following and gain some credibility with the next CPG release....sure. But I have what I think is a realistic view of potential collectibility and thus value.

pitboss

I am a firm believer and have several thousand of these coins and 200 graded so far.

candy2012mustang

I like them a lot, I have many.

However, I think If there were only a few varieties it would be more collectable. (like 3 or 4 - not 50+). It kind of reminds me of the 1955 "poor mans" double dies.. or the "extra tree error"..

Investment wise, I wouldnt put all your eggs in one basket...

OriginalDan

<< <i>I am a firm believer and have several thousand of these coins and 200 graded so far. >>


This leads me to believe they will never explode in value. There are too many out there.

astrorat

True believer in what? That the varieties are real? They are fun to collect? They have investment potential?

Manorcourtman

<< <i>Hi guy's! How many of you guy's are " true believers" of the errors/varieties of the 2009 cent? I mean really,true blue believers that this series will explode in the near future?Are you willing to join and be a part of the "Formative year Club"? Only for the ones who are willing to be a follower of this gem of a coin/coins.Here's the logo, >>



Love your enthusiam Joey! But I hope you don't bet the farm on these readily available varieties. Those who collect varieties already have their fair share of them. The variety market is a very thinly traded market and a dozen or so high grade examples will sink the prices faster than a speeding bullet! I've sold numerous PCGS recognized URS-10 and lower( less than 500 known) Lincoln varieties this year for less than $100. Most of the 2009 varieties have a huge mintage, in terms of varieties. If the CPG and PCGS ever recognize these the only one that will make money on them is them!! The grading fees will exceed the value of these common varieties. Numerous (hundreds) high grade examples of each variety exist. This will forever keep the prices low. I've seen several truly rare Lincoln Memorial varieties jump from pop 2-3 coins to 5-6 this year and it turned $1500 coins into $300-400 coins. And these are truly rare varieties that you could search for years to find and never find one. I am amazed at all the hype these 2009 coins have received. Hype = not good investment imho!!

2009UHR

Lurking with interest on these for a long time, hoping that they get the respect they deserve. My searching started with a damaged shipment from the mint for a box of 5 dated 4/17. When I saw something different on the P mint, I came here (to the master thread). Bought prime boxes on e-bay, alot of fun, for such little money. Soon, I had a bunch of 001s,002s,003s,004s,catfishes. Then, I had to have the elusive "Skeleton" and after narrowing down date and time, I become addicted. I now sit on 7-4/23 unopened boxes, 2-rolls with 006/009 on one end, 1 roll with 001 on one end, 1 roll with 002 on one end, 200+ raw 006/009's, 100+ raw double thumbs, 100+ 6-fingers, 20+ wddr 013 with large die crack and other minor ddr's. My favorite in order are 006/009 skeleton, 001 6-finger and 002 double thumb. I am a believer, if that means I really like them and think they deserve a special place for those who collect Lincoln's and error collectors. After all, it isn't doubling of a letter, date or the like, it is Lincoln's hand.

astrorat

<< <i>Lurking with interest on these for a long time, hoping that they get the respect they deserve. >>

What do you mean "respect they deserve?" Seriously, I know little to nothing about modern varieties. How are these varieties being disrespected?

2009UHR

Respect for a anything means recognition and I would consider recognition from PCGS as respect.

astrorat

<< <i>Respect for a anything means recognition and I would consider recognition from PCGS as respect. >>

Ah, so you are seeking respect from PCGS, not the collecting community. Don't feel too bad, by that definition, PCGS (along with NGC and ANACS) disrespect a lot of coins.

ctf_error_coins

As an error collector / dealer, I find them boring.

I collect major mint errors and have no interest in varieties.

Onedollarnohollar

Too many "non-believers" have already checked in here. Nice try JoeyKoins but the wheels have already fallen off this wagon. Come back home Joey to the "2009 Lincoln Formative" thread for actual enthusiasts.

Say goodbye to the negative nellies that only want to rain on our parade. Newbies are still welcome there and they will find a wealth of information, pics, etc. waiting for them to discover and explore.

a doubled thumbs up to the "believers" !

Mission16

The only varieties that matter to me are the copper ones in the 2009 UNC sets. They SHOULD increase in value simply because of their type status and known low mintage.

crypto79

I am a true believer, I havent seen them personally but have heard 2nd hand accounts from drunks who offered little zip lock baggies of hair samples and plaster foot print castings as proof and as such I am all but certain they exist. Why would they make this stuff up?

joeykoins

<< <i>Too many "non-believers" have already checked in here. Nice try JoeyKoins but the wheels have already fallen off this wagon. Come back home Joey to the "2009 Lincoln Formative" thread for actual enthusiasts.

Say goodbye to the negative nellies that only want to rain on our parade. Newbies are still welcome there and they will find a wealth of information, pics, etc. waiting for them to discover and explore.

a doubled thumbs up to the "believers" ! >>

Have patience,my friend. The post from 2009UHR boosts this thread already! Nice going 2009UHR,and good point! also,even the non-believers post are appreciated.

joeykoins

How's this for a "Formative Year Club" challenge? Can any of us,come up with every,yes,every variety in the 2009p variety family?What,isn't there about 70?Can one do it,good luck! I think I have about 20? meaning,can you have in your possession?

19Lyds

<< <i>Respect for a anything means recognition and I would consider recognition from PCGS as respect. >>

Ahhhhh!

Now I understand.

I was thinking that perhaps the folks looking for this "respect" were actually hoping for a huge windfall which would create a massive wave of desire to flow over the general collecting community and ultimately reap millions of dollars for the efforts they've expended in gathering all these thousands of mint boxes which contain multiple variations of the 2009 Lincoln varieties!

I can see now that the intent here is to, instead, form a union of collectors that will eventually have a complete collection of each and every 2009 Lincoln Variety in a PCGS or NGC Slab.

Come to think of it, there's nothing really stopping folks from creating their own complete collections with graded coins and labeling them individually? I do it with IKE's and I know that Caleb, myself and many others do it with Kennedy's. We find them, submit them, then put a little label on it identifying the variety.

. .

Since these are Kennedy's, PCGS "recognizes" them but they don;t "attribute" them which means that I can only "trade" or "sell" them as the variety on my label to folks who understand and appreciate the variety for its value. BTW, that 1989-D RPM was a pleasant surprise from Caleb and Tim! The grade surprised both of them as well as me!

At any rate, perhaps the 2009 Lincoln folks should start a web site dedicated to this specific year variety? I think that if the number of "members" or perhaps "visitors" were high enough, that maybe that data could be used to get some of these attributed? I know that there are a LOT of folks that really love these but unfortunately a cast majority of "seasoned" collectors and dealers just do not feel the same. I get the same thing and feelings from folks regarding the Kennedy's and IKE's. Heck, I even have one dealer that I purchase Kennedy Varieties from who won't buy my graded examples for resale since he has a hard time reselling them for any kind of profit. He'll sell them to me at a profit raw, but won't buy them when they're graded. I had a couple of high grade 1971-S Proofs (FS-101 and FS-102) that he had no interest in.

But, thats the way of the collecting business.

My advice is to start a National Club or Society, get a lot of members, meet regularly at National or Local Coin Shows and start building the interest. It works for the Early Copper Collectors. It works for the IKE Folks (They even have books published).

Good Luck!

Oh Yeah I forgot to say..I'm a true believer in that I believe that these are authentic varieties and I believe that there is a lot of folks that like to collect these. But I also believe (through experience) that it'll be a long, tough, hard road to walk to get the TPG's to attribute these coins without them being in the CPG and even then it will be a very small quantity compared to the number that actually exists. I also believe that IF they get into the CPG, they'll suffer the same fate as the 1970-D Washington Quarter FS-901 and FS-902 varieties..............they'll get moved to the appendices after a couple of Editions get published!

The ONLY way to build interest and a following with these coins is to do it yourself and this thread is a good start!
Now if only those "non-believers" would just stay away!

joeykoins

Thanks 19lyds, I don't think we'll take this club as far as the clubs you mentioned,but we will try encouraging this series through our host's forum.I think the goal is to stop the one's that are negative,and make them look at the positive of ,who knows what these little sleepers can be? Didn't the 1995 double-die cent first have a " negative " reaction at his debut? Once again,we can only wait and see!

19Lyds

<< <i>Thanks 19lyds, I don't think we'll take this club as far as the clubs you mentioned,but we will try encouraging this series through our host's forum.I think the goal is to stop the one's that are negative,and make them look at the positive of ,who knows what these little sleepers can be? Didn't the 1995 double-die cent first have a " negative " reaction at his debut? Once again,we can only wait and see! >>

No. The 1995 didn't have a "negative" reaction but it did have less rotation than the previous 1972 and simply paled in comparison to the 1955!

Lots of "seemingly" negative responses are actually "I'm tired of you folks trying to Hype these" responses. Those that want to participate in a positive manner should simply do so.

Personally, I don't think there's any more of an exhilarating feeling than finding a variety coin and that feeling gets amplified if you're the first to find that variety!
Hang in there and carry on. If you respond to the "negative nellies", they'll respond in like and before you know it, the thread will turn into a war zone and end up getting locked with perhaps some casualties getting banned to the back of the lurker bus!

In 5 or 10 years, maybe something will come of these and then maybe not. But then, thats what collecting is all about.

Actually collecting!

joeykoins

Yes,the negative of the 1995 that I was speaking of is what you said,because of the previous '72 and the big baby '55 . So,when you think about it, maybe it is the previous d.d. 1995, that makes the non-believers think," this series won't become as big as the 1995d.d.?

19Lyds

<< <i>Yes,the negative of the 1995 that I was speaking of is what you said,because of the previous '72 and the big baby '55 . So,when you think about it, maybe it is the previous d.d. 1995, that makes the non-believers think," this series won't become as big as the 1995d.d.? >>

True BUT the values of that coin have dropped quite a bit over the years with anything lower than MS68 being a difficult coin to sell.

Of course, the attribution fee's are non-existent for the 1995 DDO like they are for the Accented Hair Kennedy and the 1972 Type 2 IKE and a bunch of other well "established" varieties.

I don't really see PCGS going in that direction though.

crypto79

<< <i>Yes,the negative of the 1995 that I was speaking of is what you said,because of the previous '72 and the big baby '55 . So,when you think about it, maybe it is the previous d.d. 1995, that makes the non-believers think," this series won't become as big as the 1995d.d.? >>



Well the 95 DDO is not a very pricey coin but to answer your question the 2009 are less obvious (all of them) and more common(most if them) and way to numerous in scope . One can pick up a gem 95ddo for under 30$ at auction in an 20$ holder and it is the classic definition of a DDO. These new doubled dies while technically correct are a different breed and not yet embraced by the collecting community save for a few dramatic examples like the DC quarter. Also hanging your hat on inclusion in the CPG is a mistake too. There are lots and lots of coins in the CPG that have little to no value and what is there is pure retail with no two way market behind it.

Also I think you fail to realize the demographic represented on this board for the most part. These collectors trend toward advance and specialist which is by default a hard group to steer the collective opinion of a sub group that really should be directed towards novices and kids for obvious reasons. By blasting the trumpet into unwilling ears to much you run the risk of doing more harm than good and making the group a laughing stock or influencing dealers not to take a chance on them or attempt to promote a series if there is predicted backlash.

joeykoins

<< <i>

<< <i>Yes,the negative of the 1995 that I was speaking of is what you said,because of the previous '72 and the big baby '55 . So,when you think about it, maybe it is the previous d.d. 1995, that makes the non-believers think," this series won't become as big as the 1995d.d.? >>



Well the 95 DDO is not a very pricey coin but to answer your question the 2009 are less obvious (all of them) and more common(most if them) and way to numerous in scope . One can pick up a gem 95ddo for under 30$ at auction in an 20$ holder and it is the classic definition of a DDO. These new doubled dies while technically correct are a different breed and not yet embraced by the collecting community save for a few dramatic examples like the DC quarter. Also hanging your hat on inclusion in the CPG is a mistake too. There are lots and lots of coins in the CPG that have little to no value and what is there is pure retail with no two way market behind it.

Also I think you fail to realize the demographic represented on this board for the most part. These collectors trend toward advance and specialist which is by default a hard group to steer the collective opinion of a sub group that really should be directed towards novices and kids for obvious reasons. By blasting the trumpet into unwilling ears to much you run the risk of doing more harm than good and making the group a laughing stock or influencing dealers not to take a chance on them or attempt to promote a series if there is predicted backlash. >>

I understand what your saying,but isn't that the nature of the beast in this business? Towards taking chances that a coin/coins that one invests in,to grow in popularity and in price?Whether one hears about from whoever hypes it or not?I know,but please,don't shoot the messenger,standpoint!

joeykoins

Anybody know how many varieties in the 2009p alone? Just for ( P)hiladelphia.

TwoSides2aCoin

I don't search for, market or promote them, ...but, I believe they are part of numismatics' future, for life.
So sure that I put my faith elsewhere and trust in those who believe in them to keep believing.
There is a proof selling for a few grand on my website. It's in an ANACS holder. So far, there's no interest in it and I paid a former member here a lot of money for it, because I "believed". I may be buried with it.

joeykoins

Exactly right! You know buddy where I place all my faith.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Exactly right! You know buddy where I place all my faith. >>

BigA

Why is there a breakaway thread from the thread with almost 700 posts? I checked in with my "aye" and have MANY graded and raw varieties but I have ZERO premonitions that they will ever have any significant value. ....you can't create interest when there is none...as was pointed out previously there are waaaaaaay too many out there which makes them fun to collect but eliminates any future collector value.

Just because you believe something will happen doesn't mean it actually will....

joeykoins

Time will tell! I know that's not the first time we heard that! We shall see.Ever have a strong feeling towards something,and before you know it,Bang!!!Well,us true-believers have that same thought,why not,right?Isn't this kind of thinking is what collecting coins is all about? Wishful thinking,and having fun along the way! Oh,thank you,buddy for chiming in,too!

ambro51

The near absence of these issues in general circulation due to roll and box hoarding has forever removed these from popular collecting radar. There are no kids hunting them, no beginning collectors forming sets, no interest from veteran error collectors. Truth is, a minuscule die variety on a boring uncollected near valueless coin has no wheels at all and this whole exersize is a study in self hypnosis.

joeykoins

pf70collector

I don't even see the non double die 2009s in circulation at all any more. These are picked out it seems as soon as they hit circulation.

joeykoins

<< <i>I don't even see the non double die 2009s in circulation at all any more. These are picked out it seems as soon as they hit circulation. >>

This is exactly what we've been talking about! The public knows better,than to leave these in circulation as "common" coins. I always look in my change,I NEVER find any varieties,never!

pitboss

I have put tens of thousands of these in circulation, as a matter of fact I just took 10,000 to the credit union today.

Constantine

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't even see the non double die 2009s in circulation at all any more. These are picked out it seems as soon as they hit circulation. >>

This is exactly what we've been talking about! The public knows better,than to leave these in circulation as "common" coins. I always look in my change,I NEVER find any varieties,never! >>



Unfortunately that is not good for the value of the coins. Many people hoarded the 2009 releases because they were a special design and so there will always be plenty of BU rolls. One can say, oh but years down the line they will be worth a big premium, but just look at the 1976 Bicentennial Quarters. Those were hoarded and still are actually by people today thinking they are special and they are not. Just simply too many produced and worse than that, way too many saved.

But back to the DDRs, I have hundreds of the top varieties that will be listed in the CPG. There are others here with hundreds or thousands. All nicely kept in 2x2s or ANACS slabs. Like many, I knew what boxes to hunt down from the beginning. It was shooting fish in a barrel. I still believe in the Skeleton Finger primarily only found in 4/23 boxes and not all time stamps either from that day. I focused greatly on buying the boxes that I can. I probably have one of Gemmiest hoards known.

The end result is the handful of collectors who got in early (primarily on this forum) have more than enough to supply demand. There is a lot of hopeful thinking about demand, that these will take off down the road and become very popular. Sure that could happen, but if it does there is a great enough supply to satisfy it. One could say, well sure you can satisfy the demand for a while, but eventually all your hoards will be gone and then prices will go up. I think many do not realize that the variety/error base for all coins is very small. It always has been and will be. Just step back and look at the big picture here. These varieties have been found in a new era of collecting. A modern era, were boxes are date/time stamped by the Mint and available for purchase, and when banks are able to order boxes for customers, and especially in an internet age were we can find anything we want online. Nothing about these 2009 Lincolns fell under the radar.

Lastly, my point of view is from a believer. I think the top most dramatic of the varieties are limited and are a special one year only design. We already have a few CPG numbers for those varieties which is great. I bet some will be listed at $50 for MS-65 examples etc. But that is just like so many other coins listed in price guides. It is just a number. There are thousands available for those who may wish to buy one. Yet even if these took off, the variety world is very small. Classic case of supply and demand is at work here. It will always be at work here, and even if demand picks up, there is still plenty to go around.

I see in the future an individual seller having maybe a $15-$25 Gem sale on Ebay every couple of weeks. But then don't get in the fantasy world of saying "Well good grief I have 200 of them so that is $5000!!!!" Anybody that has ever sold quantity of an item to the public knows it can take a lifetime.

I say to everyone, enjoy the hunt, the conversation, and the camaraderie. Roll searching, looking up varieties with a loupe, and stapling 2x2s is classic coin collecting. Something I have enjoyed greatly and what I see as the best part of these varieities.

I think the idea of a club or website dedicated to these varieties is a great idea. I am willing to help however I can with a project. The true benefit of these varieties has been the joy of collecting them.

hammer1

I used to be a believer, but I lost my way, and sold everything. I agree with Pitboss, if they're not moving a year after CPG, cut your losses and be the first believer to head for the doors. The others after you will get vastly diminishing returns especially after Pitboss dumps his hoard.

joeykoins

Constantine,Thank you for all your input. All you said,might turn out to be true ( us believers hope your wrong) but what you said in your closing comments are what this is all about. FUN! So if wishing,hoping ,pushing and boasting about a particular coin/coins to make it big someday,is all part of the fun in this crazy and beautiful hobby of ours,why not,right? Just as long as we don't lose our pants in doing so! In the meantime,us true blue believers will keep wishing,hoping,pushing and boasting about this modern gem of interest,until what you say is totally correct. Thanks again for chiming in buddy.

telephoto1

The near absence of these issues in general circulation due to roll and box hoarding has forever removed these from popular collecting radar. There are no kids hunting them, no beginning collectors forming sets, no interest from veteran error collectors. Truth is, a minuscule die variety on a boring uncollected near valueless coin has no wheels at all and this whole exersize is a study in self hypnosis.

The post above pretty well nailed it IMO.

My views on these have pretty well been covered by others here...in a nutshell, way too many very minor varieties coupled with large quantities hoarded, all in high BU condition, and for the most part, the only steadfast group of collectors with any significant interest in them all have relatively large hoards they're sitting on. As someone else pointed out, CPG inclusion isn't any guarantee of value increase; so for those believers/hoarders out there-who's going to pay large money for them? It's a really thin market even under the best case scenario, so I just don't see these taking off. They've had 4 years. The best money on fad varieties is usually the quick money... and the best shot for these was when they were fresh to the market IMO. If you like to collect them, great; that's what collecting's about- but those who are betting that inclusion in some specialty guide will make them wealthy are being, to be kind, very unrealistic.

ctf_error_coins

<< <i>The best money on fad varieties is usually the quick money... and the best shot for these was when they were fresh to the market IMO. >>



Bingo

pitboss

I know I do not intend to get wealthy on these coins. They to me are just a great variety and fun to collect. When they get better known by the general collecting public the people here on the forum that have them should make a little money for being the ones that first collected them early on.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>I think many do not realize that the variety/error base for all coins is very small. >>

Not only that, but a great many of those interested in modern varieties are interested in finding them at face value, not paying retail.

pitboss

You forget that there are millions of Lincoln cent collectors out there that do not even know about these coins. I am not saying that they are going to be worth a ton of money but once they become more known they should be more in demand than they now are.

pf70collector

The question that needs to be asked: Are the lincoln cent collectors dying out. Is there a younger generation of collectors interested in the entire lincoln series to replace the older generation? Maybe a reason no demand for these 09 double dies.

Baley

<< <i>

<< <i>I think many do not realize that the variety/error base for all coins is very small. >>

Not only that, but a great many of those interested in modern varieties are interested in finding them at face value, not paying retail. >>



Bingo Bingo Bingo. question for the "believers": how many of these are you BUYING FROM OTHERS at $20 a pop or whatever? Or have you accumulated your hoards for one or two cents per coin?

pitboss

Mine are costing me about 3 cents apiece as I buy them by the box, take out the varieties, and then take them to the credit union to count them for me so am not into them for much money.

Onedollarnohollar

I have purchased two late stage die crack 006's raw for a retail price but generally have, like most of us, found these errors through diligent searching through rolls. Actual costs are difficult to measure. How

do you factor personal time into costs? That is how retail prices are established. You factor in the hours of research, wholesale cost of material, time creating listings, Ebay, Paypal, and shipping fees, etc.

In my opinion, the auction prices that are being realized currently are extremely good for the average collector who simply has to click a button to purchase them without all of the hard work that we have put

in behind the scenes. I think my costs are actually a little higher than a few cents per coin.

pitboss

I have probably looked at 125,000 + cents in the past few years and cashed in at my local credit union 115,000 +. I don't consider my work as labor as I enjoyed doing it and am retired and have plenty of time on my hands. The tellers all know me when they see me coming and know what I have. I have bought boxes from probably 30 different sellers on ebay with prices ranging from $50 to $100 a box. With my returns figured in what I have left costs me about 3.1 cents apiece not including my fees of about $11 a coin to get the 200 graded at Anacs. I sold 52 of the graded coins early on for prices ranging from $30 to $395 each so these coins don't owe me anything.

Buzzybest

I only like Morgan vaieties!

Onedollarnohollar

What's that BUZZING noise? A non-believer???? Perhaps landed in the wrong thread???? Spraying some bug repellent ... now.....BUZZ OFF! or stay and perhaps learn something ....your choice. a doubled thumbs up to all...even the non-believers!!!