Is this Morgan graded correctly?

jphendren

Hello,

I've decided to start another CC Morgan collection, so I went down to my local coin shop. I told myself that I would not buy any raw coins as my grading skills are not the best. I was looking for slabbed or GSA, but they only had super high end slabbed CC Morgans at the time, way out of my budget. So against my better judgement I gave in and bought this 1879 CC. The coin store graded it F12, which from looking at photo's of PCGS/NGC graded F12 coins it does seem fairly close. I also asked the store Numismatist to assure me that the surfaces are original and not been tampered with, he looked with a loupe and strong light and assured me they were. Tell me what you think?

Here is the obverse. From studying images of TPG service F12 Morgans, this coin looks pretty equal as far as Liberties ear, hair, wheat stalks go. But the rim in front of Liberties face is worn. The rim is still complete (hard to see in this photo), but faint. I don't know if that disqualifies this coin as a Fine grade coin. I hope not.



Here is the reverse.



Jared

ModCrewman

Not at all my series, but I'd think that coin would have a very good chance of getting a grade from PCGS.

AUandAG

Looks just fine to me....F12 is close.

bob

DennisH

I would not buy that coin as a Fine-12.
Most of the key wear points on the coin (cotton bolls and wing tips) do say it is a Fine, but much of the left half of the obverse rim is badly worn... down to Good-06 in some areas.
I think VG10 is a more accurate representation of this coin. The coin, by the way, is priced as a VF.

jphendren

"The coin, by the way, is priced as a VF. "

I can't argue with your other points, but the online PCGS price guide has this coin listed in F12 as $245. Is that price guide not accurate? Is it only good for PCGS slabbed coins? I'm not sure, that is why I am asking. I noticed the rim wear initially, but at the time it didn't dawn on me that it would pull the grade down as the other areas of the coin definitely look Fine 12 to me. I guess that is why I should stick to slabbed coins from PCGS or NGC.

Jared

sniocsu

looks F12 to me

DennisH

The PCGS Price Guide is for PCGS-certified coins only, and it tends to be high. You need to get a free membership over at Heritage so you can see their auction archives. PCGS and NGC Fine-12s tend to go for $150 or so.

blu62vette

That is not a 12. The obverse image scares me with the whispy vertical lines on the cheek and heading down from the L in pluribus.

Also look into PCGS coinfacts to have their auction archive information. Guides are guides, auction history is the latest realized price.

magikbilly

There appears to be some hairlines/vertical scratches as well particularly Obv. Also not a 12 I think as others have pointed out. Not $220 either. But in any event, after learning it is over graded and you also over paid - I would suggest buying some books The PCGS grading guide (1st edition) is a great place to start. And stick to your own plans - no raw = no raw. The best way to (often) mess up a plan is to change it.

Happy New Year!
Eric

BryceM

It's unlikely to find counterfeit coins at a dealer's shop, but it can happen and they can be very, very hard to spot. Mostly these have been higher-end coins but some very good circulated fakes are out there too. Of course, you're welcome to do anything you'd like, but for me raw silver dollars selling for >$100 have very little appeal.

Constantine

Yours seems nicer than the PCGS graded on in this link. But I am not sure of those scratches on the left obverse though.

eBay

jphendren

I have an account at Heritage, I went and checked it out. You are right, the prices seem to be in the $150-$175 range. I did however find this coin, it was graded by NGC Fine 12, and has similar obverse rim wear to mine, and yet graded Fine 12. This coin sold for around $199. So it does seem like I overpaid, bummer, but I guess education costs.





Jared

rawmorgan

As someone who buys mostly raw morgans. It would have a chance at F-12, but the hairlines on obverse are troubling.

But those could be defects in the 2x2 plastic that are being reflected off the flash.

How does it look without the cellophane wrapper?

As for the price, that is IMO what you would pay at a B&M.

The best you could have done is maybe $200, if you were a regular.

VanHalen

I grade it $170 as-is.

rawmorgan

Given some of the wierdness of the mintmark especially the "c" on the right (seems thicker and more ragged.)

And the filled "G" in GOD

I would love to call this a Vam-3A (a nice premium there)
As it is the only Vam with filled "G" in GOD

But I don't want to get your hopes up.

I would need a better image of the mm, and other diagnostics.

Vam 3A

Edited to add

The Vam 3 also has a filled "G" in GOD in LDS and is a Top 100
but again would need better pics.

grip

The grade don't bother me,it's the scratches on the obverse.

johnny9434

maybe a net vg 10, other then the scratches if you dont count them then yes f 12

magikbilly

<< <i>Yours seems nicer than the PCGS graded on in this link. But I am not sure of those scratches on the left obverse though.

eBay >>




I dunno - I'd take the PCGS circ-cam look any day over this. I do not like these surfaces.

Happy New Year!
Eric

jphendren

Do the surfaces appear to be cleaned? Is that what the wispy lines would indicate? I can clearly see them in my photographs, but actually looking at the coin in the sun, they are impossible to see.

Jared

LeeBone

An F12 of mine for comparison...


OR, save up for one like this; It took me some time to do it but I like it

LanceNewmanOCC

.

roadrunner

Those shiny obv hairlines look to be from fairly recent coin to coin contact or from storage in a wooden drawer. I've seen other raw circ coins that were loosely kept together get that sort of look. I don't consider it a killer by any means. What would be worse would be scratches, rim bangs, and a bag mark on a focal point....none of which your coin has. It's not been cleaned or played with either. I don't see why it wouldn't grade out without deduction. That doesn't mean it would fetch solid money for the grade either. But let's face it. The typical buyer here on the forum (myself included) wants a "perfect" coin for less than strong money. We can wish for it, but there are very few perfect coins. The coin wasn't stored perfectly for a period of time. It's not a death sentence. The good thing is that there is only a $10 spread between VG and Fine money. The potentially negative thing is that you paid CDN VF money for the coin. I don't know the market for this coin but the 79-cc is a fairly obtainable coin in all grades from Good-MS64. So I'd be leery of paying 87% above Fine "bid" without some sort of substantiation. The world's most perfect Fine-12 with attractive album toning might be worth such a premium.

For readily available coins in the market place, PCGS price guide tends to be about 50% above wholesale. Or another way of putting it, a dealer would typically pay 65-75% of PCGS price guide for nice quality, very liquid, and desireable coins....like a nice circ 79-cc $. Divide price guide by 1.5 to get you in the ball park for routinely traded/available coins. This number will vary with market strength and the series/date in question.

rawmorgan

<< <i>

<< <i>Given some of the wierdness of the mintmark especially the "c" on the right (seems thicker and more ragged.)

And the filled "G" in GOD

I would love to call this a Vam-3A (a nice premium there)
As it is the only Vam with filled "G" in GOD

But I don't want to get your hopes up.

I would need a better image of the mm, and other diagnostics.

Vam 3A

Edited to add

The Vam 3 also has a filled "G" in GOD in LDS and is a Top 100
but again would need better pics. >>



the G has nothing to do what makes vam 3-a.

it was the 2 gouges i saw. 1 at the base of A2 and 1 just a bit southwest coming out of the wing. there are a couple other diagnostics but they are subsequent to the gouges. (at least for now)

but since the cc on the coin in the OP isn't blundered all this is moot.

edited to add: i just checked the folder with the dozens of images for my discovery and i also confirm that the V3 and V3A both have a filled G. now the question is; does any 3A have a clear G?

I have also been approved to feature it as VOTW on 1-6-13
. >>




We would need a better image of the mintmark, before calling this.
As stated above in my previous post............twice.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>We would need a better image of the mintmark, before calling this.
As stated above in my previous post............twice. >>



you may.

i don't
.

jphendren

Hello guys,

Thanks for all of your input. So the general consensus is that it may, or may not grade F 12, but that it is definitely genuine. As far as the VAM-3 issue is concerned, here is he best I can do as far as a picture of the mintmark.

Here is mine.



Here is a known VAM-3 in a PCGS holder.



Jared

coinkat

I would wait for a better example-

That may sound like a cop out answer, but this coin in the 180-220 range is a pass- I don't even need to get into the grade

19Lyds

Well, it's not labeled as BU or MS67 or even XF-45 so it's a lot closer than most!