Adding to the confusion, for some, that is today's trading session, here comes the CME which in a post-closing announcement, proceeds to hike outright margins on a variety of petroleum and freight products, but more importantly just cut the margins on gold by 9%. Is it that time when the establishment is clearing the path for everyone to rotate out of equities (and/or bonds) into gold, just to set the trap and pull the trapdoor once everyone is once again left holding paper gold? We shall see, but following tonight's selloff, gold is now less than 5% less than stocks YTD. It may well be up to the last trading session of the year to determine who wins in 2012: rock or paper.
I guess the debt (and the FASB) is the 'scissors' since it can cut one into many - trillions.
I am highly amused by the margin increase/decrease debate. >>
I think they are trying to simulate demand. They chased away a lot of money following all the silver and gold margin increases in 2011. A lot of those former players either ceased trading PMs entirely or headed off to ETF's and physical. The USA PMs futures are losing their mojo. Eventually the real market will be in Asia where physical delivery will occur. The paper futures market is in a slow death spiral. What it really costs to buy large quantities of gold is not being broadcast to the world. And those prices are well above NY spot.
After having a few beers, you guys going back & forth is amusing. Everyone knows what's gonn happen and why it's going to, right? That's why we're on a freakin message board on a Sat. night during the holidays, because we know it all.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
Why would they need to stimulate demand for something that is the cure for all the worlds ills? So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's?
They are stimulating demand for paper gold which is far different than physical gold that is shuttled back and forth between central banks. The physical is the cure for the world's debts. The paper stuff is just a trading illusion to allow the shift of gold from weak hands (the west) to strong hands (the east). If the demand for quantities of physical weren't real you wouldn't have central banks like Germany (and others) trying to get their gold out of NY and London vaults. There are about half a dozen central banks continuing to add to their inventories.
I would agree that few want this paper crap. Or at least they don't want to be the last man standing when paper gold musical chairs comes to an end. The demand for gold tonnage behind the scenes is enormous. Joe Six Pack doesn't get to see that. If you want a couple AGE's, visit your local coin shop. If you want 5-50 tonnes of gold that's a totally different story. The Comex now settles gold contracts primarily in cash (paper) offers well above spot price (or even in GLD shares) to avoid delivery of physical that they don't have. There are outs in the Comex agreements that allows them to settle in paper rather than in physical if they really need to. If there was a force majeure declared you can bet that everyone left holding for delivery would get cash or some other form of IOU. This is the crap that no one wants and why interest in gold futures has been waning. There is also the little problem of accurate price discovery. If the banksters and hedge funds in concert can sell 20,000 to 50,000 contracts in a few minutes without regard to getting a fair price for their longs, then this is a game that fewer are willing to play. The behind the scenes physical market is where the real price is set for tonnage. Not in paper shares during Comex hours. If a central bank wanted 50 tonnes of gold next week they couldn't get it for $1660, let alone $1700 and maybe not even for $1800/oz.
<< <i>So now they are trying to stimulate demand? >>
why else would you lower price (or margin requirement)? >>
Why would they need to stimulate demand for something that is the cure for all the worlds ills?
So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's? >>
As usual, cohodk is correct. Nobody really wants this crap.
>>
History derryb. You posted history. "Wants" is a present word, not historical. That gold chart could very easily end up looking like the chart of Wal-Mart from 1990 to today.
How many times has the CME lowered margins this year? And why isnt the price higher? If raising margins kills the price, why doesnt lower margins boost the price?
So now we see the problem of an asset that has intangible "fundamentals".
<< <i>Why would they need to stimulate demand for something that is the cure for all the worlds ills? So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's?
They are stimulating demand for paper gold which is far different than physical gold that is shuttled back and forth between central banks. The physical is the cure for the world's debts. The paper stuff is just a trading illusion to allow the shift of gold from weak hands (the west) to strong hands (the east). If the demand for quantities of physical weren't real you wouldn't have central banks like Germany (and others) trying to get their gold out of NY and London vaults. There are about half a dozen central banks continuing to add to their inventories.
I would agree that few want this paper crap. Or at least they don't want to be the last man standing when paper gold musical chairs comes to an end. The demand for gold tonnage behind the scenes is enormous. Joe Six Pack doesn't get to see that. If you want a couple AGE's, visit your local coin shop. If you want 5-50 tonnes of gold that's a totally different story. The Comex now settles gold contracts primarily in cash (paper) offers well above spot price (or even in GLD shares) to avoid delivery of physical that they don't have. There are outs in the Comex agreements that allows them to settle in paper rather than in physical if they really need to. If there was a force majeure declared you can bet that everyone left holding for delivery would get cash or some other form of IOU. This is the crap that no one wants and why interest in gold futures has been waning. There is also the little problem of accurate price discovery. If the banksters and hedge funds in concert can sell 20,000 to 50,000 contracts in a few minutes without regard to getting a fair price for their longs, then this is a game that fewer are willing to play. The behind the scenes physical market is where the real price is set for tonnage. Not in paper shares during Comex hours. If a central bank wanted 50 tonnes of gold next week they couldn't get it for $1660, let alone $1700 and maybe not even for $1800/oz. >>
I'm sure Cohodk knows all this but quite enjoys his role as devil's advocate. But it's good for you and derryp and jmski52 (and others) to keep posting the obvious so not everyone falls into the trap.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
bronco2078
Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Adding to the confusion, for some, that is today's trading session, here comes the CME which in a post-closing announcement, proceeds to hike outright margins on a variety of petroleum and freight products, but more importantly just cut the margins on gold by 9%. Is it that time when the establishment is clearing the path for everyone to rotate out of equities (and/or bonds) into gold, just to set the trap and pull the trapdoor once everyone is once again left holding paper gold? We shall see, but following tonight's selloff, gold is now less than 5% less than stocks YTD. It may well be up to the last trading session of the year to determine who wins in 2012: rock or paper.
I guess the debt (and the FASB) is the 'scissors' since it can cut one into many - trillions.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Manipulative conspiracy. >>
Not so much a conspiracy (nothing illegal), but a lot like the coupons the wife shops with - manipulative stimulus. An effort to alter demand.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I am highly amused by the margin increase/decrease debate.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>So now they are trying to stimulate demand?
I am highly amused by the margin increase/decrease debate. >>
I think they are trying to simulate demand. They chased away a lot of money following all the silver and gold margin increases in 2011. A lot of those former players either ceased
trading PMs entirely or headed off to ETF's and physical. The USA PMs futures are losing their mojo. Eventually the real market will be in Asia where physical delivery will occur.
The paper futures market is in a slow death spiral. What it really costs to buy large quantities of gold is not being broadcast to the world. And those prices are well above NY spot.
<< <i>So now they are trying to stimulate demand? >>
why else would you lower price (or margin requirement)?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>
<< <i>So now they are trying to stimulate demand? >>
why else would you lower price (or margin requirement)? >>
Why would they need to stimulate demand for something that is the cure for all the worlds ills?
So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
That's why we're on a freakin message board on a Sat. night during the holidays, because we know it all.
So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's?
Maybe nobody wants to deal with them anymore if they don't have to?
I knew it would happen.
So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's?
They are stimulating demand for paper gold which is far different than physical gold that is shuttled back and forth between central banks.
The physical is the cure for the world's debts. The paper stuff is just a trading illusion to allow the shift of gold from weak hands (the west) to strong hands (the east).
If the demand for quantities of physical weren't real you wouldn't have central banks like Germany (and others) trying to get their gold out of NY and London vaults.
There are about half a dozen central banks continuing to add to their inventories.
I would agree that few want this paper crap. Or at least they don't want to be the last man standing when paper gold musical chairs comes to an end. The demand for
gold tonnage behind the scenes is enormous. Joe Six Pack doesn't get to see that. If you want a couple AGE's, visit your local coin shop. If you want 5-50 tonnes of gold
that's a totally different story. The Comex now settles gold contracts primarily in cash (paper) offers well above spot price (or even in GLD shares) to avoid delivery of
physical that they don't have. There are outs in the Comex agreements that allows them to settle in paper rather than in physical if they really need to. If there was a force
majeure declared you can bet that everyone left holding for delivery would get cash or some other form of IOU. This is the crap that no one wants and why interest in gold futures
has been waning. There is also the little problem of accurate price discovery. If the banksters and hedge funds in concert can sell 20,000 to 50,000 contracts in a few minutes without
regard to getting a fair price for their longs, then this is a game that fewer are willing to play. The behind the scenes physical market is where the real price is set for tonnage. Not
in paper shares during Comex hours. If a central bank wanted 50 tonnes of gold next week they couldn't get it for $1660, let alone $1700 and maybe not even for $1800/oz.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So now they are trying to stimulate demand? >>
why else would you lower price (or margin requirement)? >>
Why would they need to stimulate demand for something that is the cure for all the worlds ills?
So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's? >>
As usual, cohodk is correct. Nobody really wants this crap.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So now they are trying to stimulate demand? >>
why else would you lower price (or margin requirement)? >>
Why would they need to stimulate demand for something that is the cure for all the worlds ills?
So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's? >>
As usual, cohodk is correct. Nobody really wants this crap.
History derryb. You posted history. "Wants" is a present word, not historical. That gold chart could very easily end up looking like the chart of Wal-Mart from 1990 to today.
How many times has the CME lowered margins this year? And why isnt the price higher? If raising margins kills the price, why doesnt lower margins boost the price?
So now we see the problem of an asset that has intangible "fundamentals".
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Why would they need to stimulate demand for something that is the cure for all the worlds ills?
So you're saying nobody really wants this crap, er, pm's?
They are stimulating demand for paper gold which is far different than physical gold that is shuttled back and forth between central banks.
The physical is the cure for the world's debts. The paper stuff is just a trading illusion to allow the shift of gold from weak hands (the west) to strong hands (the east).
If the demand for quantities of physical weren't real you wouldn't have central banks like Germany (and others) trying to get their gold out of NY and London vaults.
There are about half a dozen central banks continuing to add to their inventories.
I would agree that few want this paper crap. Or at least they don't want to be the last man standing when paper gold musical chairs comes to an end. The demand for
gold tonnage behind the scenes is enormous. Joe Six Pack doesn't get to see that. If you want a couple AGE's, visit your local coin shop. If you want 5-50 tonnes of gold
that's a totally different story. The Comex now settles gold contracts primarily in cash (paper) offers well above spot price (or even in GLD shares) to avoid delivery of
physical that they don't have. There are outs in the Comex agreements that allows them to settle in paper rather than in physical if they really need to. If there was a force
majeure declared you can bet that everyone left holding for delivery would get cash or some other form of IOU. This is the crap that no one wants and why interest in gold futures
has been waning. There is also the little problem of accurate price discovery. If the banksters and hedge funds in concert can sell 20,000 to 50,000 contracts in a few minutes without
regard to getting a fair price for their longs, then this is a game that fewer are willing to play. The behind the scenes physical market is where the real price is set for tonnage. Not
in paper shares during Comex hours. If a central bank wanted 50 tonnes of gold next week they couldn't get it for $1660, let alone $1700 and maybe not even for $1800/oz. >>
I'm sure Cohodk knows all this but quite enjoys his role as devil's advocate. But it's good for you and derryp and jmski52 (and others) to keep posting the obvious so not everyone falls into the trap.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22