China 20 cash piece - What can you tell me?

MrBreeze

I have been researching this coin and trying to put a definite id/km# on it, but I am not 100% sure of what the deal is with this coin. I can pinpoint certain things about it, but all of the things I know don't add up to one single conclusion (at least to me). So as not to steer you in any direction, I will just ask that you offer any insights you can without me presenting my thoughts.

olmanjon

Looks to me like the picture in Krause of the ten cash coin from Fengtien province. That is krause number Y#20e. The 20 cash picture is to blurry to confirm it as Y#21e. The "letter" at the 3 oclock position on the obverse looks a little different. When I attribute my coins and place them in 2 x 2's I circle the coin in the Krause book. With over 10,000 coins that is the only way to keep track of them. I have circled in my Krause the Y#11e but I haven't been able to locate it to compare it to yours. Is this the same information that you have come up with? There are a lot of colletors here on the forumn who are experts on these coins so I am sure they will chime in soon. I am a pure amature when it comes to chinese coins-can only compare pictures. Can't read the language. Hope this is of some use to you.
Olmanjon

Sapyx

In the "copper coin" series, the province-mark - the mintmark, if you will - is the incused character in the central dot. This is indeed "Feng" for Fengtien Province (I'm using the Postal/Wade-Giles westernizations, as used in the Krause catalogue; in modern Pinyin that would be "Fengtian Province", though the province was renamed "Liaoning" in 1929). The characters at 9 o'clock and three o'clock on the non-dragon side are the cyclical date characters; these two characters correspond to 1909. This all corresponds to the description for KM/Y# 21e.

The reason the picture doesn't match is that the picture is wrong. You can just make it out from the picture in Krause - it is much more clearly seen on the NGC database page, which uses the Krause pictures - that the coin they've pictured there has the cyclical date characters (at the 10 and 2 o'clock positions) for 1905. That coin they've pictured under KM/Y 21e better fits the description in Krause of KM/Y 11g.

MrBreeze

I agree with almost everything.

-Definitely 1909 Fengtien
-Definitely not the coin pictured as 21e in Krause
-The coin pictured in Krause is not 1909 and is not y21e

Here are the strange parts.
- I have seen the coin in the Krause picture classified as y21e. I have also seen the coin in the op as y21e
- The description of y20e (the corresponding 10 cash) includes the description of the mintmark while y21e does not
- y21e is indicated as brass where this coin definitely looks copper
- this exact coin type sold at auction for $1,195 in XF, certainly more than the $175 Krause indicates
- it resembles coins that are classified as patterns and I can only find a few examples having been sold

I don't know what any of this means, but I appreciate the responses and the discussion.

jt88

It is 1909 Fengtien Y-21E.

Sapyx

<< <i>- I have seen the coin in the Krause picture classified as y21e. I have also seen the coin in the op as y21e >>


Obviously, they both can't be KM/Y 21e, because they are two completely different types. So, how to decide which is correct, picture or description? Personally, I go by description rather than picture, since I've found the pictures in modern Krauses to be more error prone. In this case, there is supporting evidence: the corresponding 10 cash pictures (KM/Y 10 and 20) support the description for KM/Y 20e for your coin being correct. The difference in opinion comes about presumably because a great many collectors and dealers, especially in the English-speaking world, are like olmanjon posted above; we can't read the script so we assign catalogue IDs just by matching the pictures. When the pictures are wrong, the descriptions people assign are wrong, too.


<< <i>- The description of y20e (the corresponding 10 cash) includes the description of the mintmark while y21e does not >>


The descriptors used in Krause for Chinese coins are confusing for beginners and frustrating for experts attempting to match coins listed in the specialist Chinese catalogues with the coins in Krause. Further, in order to save space, the original descriptions have often been truncated to the point of meaninglessness. In this case, the phrase about the mintmark in the centre is redundant, since both the KM/Y 11 series and the KM/Y 21 series have the same central incused mintmarks. The differences are in the outside legends.


<< <i>- y21e is indicated as brass where this coin definitely looks copper >>


All machine-struck early Chinese 10 and 20 cash coins are made of "whatever metal happened to be lying around" - often, recycled cast cash coins. Sometimes the alloy looks coppery, sometimes brassy. The people that made the coins didn't really care. So I personally don't understand the significance some collectors place on seeking "copper" varieties of coins that are supposed to be "brass", or vice versa.


<< <i>- this exact coin type sold at auction for $1,195 in XF, certainly more than the $175 Krause indicates >>


Chinese coins are one series for which the Krause prices can be best described as "laughable". Genuine pieces in good condition sell for much higher than Krause estimates.


<< <i>- it resembles coins that are classified as patterns and I can only find a few examples having been sold. >>


Whether the coin is supposed to be either KM/Y 11g or KM/Y 21e, the coin is scarce - so by definition, there aren't many around to make a judgement on.

jt88

It is Y-21E.

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jt88

I tried to post a catalog page to show it is Y-21E but for some reason I can't do it. Try one more time.

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jt88

I gave up, something is not right.

jt88

sumnom

Yes, it is Y-21E. The coin is marked "20 cash" in Chinese.

MrBreeze

Thank you for all of the info. It helps a great deal.

Another question. Has anybody seen any transactions of the coin that is pictured for 21e (which is 11g)? I am trying to find some examples and have come up pretty short.

Thanks in advance

tacynnep

奉 is the province mark Feng-Tien 己酉 is year 1909 二十文 is 20 cash 宣统 is last emperor rarelyty is 7, 10 is common
Copper, diameter 33.3 mm tickless 2.1 mm weight 13.2g A very good keeper.

sumnom

I have never been able to get Chinese characters to work on this forum. How did you do that?

sumnom

當制錢二十文

sumnom

Oh, it seems to work now. Fascinating.

Can everyone see the characters?

satootoko

<< <i>當制錢二十文 >>



I see them - みます　or if you prefer ミマス

sumnom

Excellent! A few years ago I tried and it didn't work. I haven't tried again since. This is great. It will make IDs easier, that is for sure.

jt88

If you want to collect Chinese coins then you need a better catalog. For Silver and gold coins you need "Illustrated Catalogue of Chinese Gold & Silver coins" by Lin Gwo Ming, NGC and PCGS referred to as L&M. For copper coins you need China copper coins by CCC (NGC and auction houses referred to as CCC) but this book is in Chinese only. So I think Lin Gwo Ming book is so far the best reference book for Chinese coins since it is in both Chinese and English.

candy2012mustang

^ I was just given a copy of Lin Gwo Ming's red book - It is a great referance.

These 20 cash coins are common - they are often found in bulk bags of foreign coins, and you can buy them for a few dollars at most. If the coin were a gem unc, it would be a totally different story!

sumnom

<< <i>If you want to collect Chinese coins then you need a better catalog. For Silver and gold coins you need "Illustrated Catalogue of Chinese Gold & Silver coins" by Lin Gwo Ming, NGC and PCGS referred to as L&M. For copper coins you need China copper coins by CCC (NGC and auction houses referred to as CCC) but this book is in Chinese only. So I think Lin Gwo Ming book is so far the best reference book for Chinese coins since it is in both Chinese and English. >>



What is the Chinese title of the CCC book?

jt88

CHinese Copper Coins (Zheng RenJie). Catalog of 785 struck coppers with #, specs, rarity ratings, & excellent color photo of good specimens. By Taiwan's leading copper collector. Often referenced in European auctions as "CCC". Chinese text. 218p, sc, 1997, OP, hard to find

MrBreeze

Here is another 1905 identified as the 1909. This lot is in the upcoming SB Hong Kong auction.

Link

ColinCMR

very nice coin