PCGS designation of BN, RB, and RD copper ... consistent? accurate?

WingedLiberty1957

I am curious to know what you all think of how PCGS designates copper "color" either as:

RED (RD) where 95% of the coin must be original mint fresh copper color
RED-BROWN (RB) where the original mint fresh copper color falls between 5% and 95% of the coins surface
BROWN (BN) where the original mint fresh copper color falls below 5%


This one was designated a RD, which I could see. Even though I think more than 5% of the coin shows some green "toning", and the reverse is two toned.


This was also designated a RD, and this I just don't get. To me this looks like a clear RB with quite a large area of the surface showing non-standard color.


This was designated a RB, even though I dont see any mint fresh copper color on the coin, I think this should have been designated a BN.


I think that perhaps PCGS's use of the term "RED" is perhaps kind of confusing, since they are really talking about mint fresh copper color and not true red.
Sometimes I have coins that have "toned" deep red, and I think this is also a discoloration away from mint fresh copper color
And they in my opinion should be called BN

Here is a PCGS RB, which I think, one might argue is more than 95% discolored from that mint fresh copper color, and should be designated a BN.


Here is another RB which shows a lot of that deep red discoloration, that you might argue could be designated a BN


Finally, this was also designated a RB, and I think you could argue this has very little mint fresh copper color.


For comparitive purposes, this is what I think a True "Red" (RD), really mint fresh copper, coin looks like.


I sometimes wonder if rather than the color categories of RD, RB, and BN --
if it would be clearer if PCGS used the following color categories

HC (high percentage of copper color)
MC (mid percentage of copper color)
LC (low percentage of copper color)

After all calling something that is copper-colored "RED" is misleading,
but perhaps not as much as calling a wild rainbow toner "BROWN".

I suppose the way PCGS looks at it is
RED = mint fresh copper color and
BROWN = anything but mint fresh copper color, not necessarily "brown"

But why start off with color category words that already mislead in terms of the actual color?

Thoughts?

Justacommeman

A lot of them start off correctly within these parameters

MJ

WingedLiberty1957

<< <i>A lot of them start off correctly within these parameters

MJ >>



Thanks for that comment MJ

That 1960 Large Date I actually submitted raw in early 2012, and it looked just like that when I submitted.
The 1937 was NGC graded and I crossed that to PCGS about a year ago -- that one also looked just like that when I submitted.
So both of those coins havent changed since being graded.

The others I cannot speak for, since I bought them slabbed.
But that yellow 1964 has had a lot of owners over the years so I know the color is very stable on that one.

LindeDad

The fact that they designate a supposes to be color is the reason some do not collect copper.

Don't get me wrong I like to look at them just not collect them. I built a set of MS Memorials all designated RD, about 10% of them weren't the original color of copper IMO.

MikeInFL

IMO, the mistake in your analysis is that you're using TrueView "flashed" photos to judge red content whereas the coin in-hand often looks quite different.

In my area of specialization, old copper, PCGS is quite consistent and accurate, IMO. I cannot speak with any sense of authority about newer issues.

TomB

My experience as a submitter is with mint state Lincoln cents (high grade Wheat cents with color). From what I can determine, PCGS and NGC categorize vibrant toning in greens and reds as being consistent with a RD designation while colorful toning in blues and purples falls within the RB designation and predominantly purple falls within the BN designation. Additionally, any muting of the luster or dulling of the original, untoned red/orange surface will bump a colorful RD coin to RB. Again, this is just from my experience and is limited to less than 100 colorfully toned Wheat cents.

WingedLiberty1957

<< <i>IMO, the mistake in your analysis is that you're using TrueView "flashed" photos to judge red content whereas the coin in-hand often looks quite different.

In my area of specialization, old copper, PCGS is quite consistent and accurate, IMO. I cannot speak with any sense of authority about newer issues. >>



Just a quick note that I have ALL of these coins in hand and they all look like the TrueView photo.
None of them look "Coppery" from most view angles and then flash color from one particular lighting and viewing angle only.

MikeInFL

<< <i>

<< <i>IMO, the mistake in your analysis is that you're using TrueView "flashed" photos to judge red content whereas the coin in-hand often looks quite different.

In my area of specialization, old copper, PCGS is quite consistent and accurate, IMO. I cannot speak with any sense of authority about newer issues. >>



Just a quick note that I have ALL of these coins in hand and they all look like the TrueView photo.
None of them look "Coppery" from most view angles and then flash color from one particular lighting and viewing angle only. >>



Agreed. However, when judging RD/RB/BN coins, it is better to view the coin at those other angles when making an assessment.

For instance, I'll wager the 1951 looks more red in hand. Same for 2nd '60 you posted.

Said a bit differently, when you flash a proof coin at that angle it tends to play up the color and play down the original red/copper.

I think the takeaway for collectors is that our own definition of RD/RB/BN may vary from the way the TPGs interpret the same thing -- and we should only pay a premium when our view and the TPGs (and seller's) view are congruent.

Take care & thanks for the response...Mike

p.s. I think Tom's response -- making the distinction between blue and reddish toning's affect on RD/RB/BN -- makes a lot of sense.

L1ncolnF4n

Color designation is much more of a guideline than a statement of fact. Copper changes color...period. Sometimes it takes several hundred years to see, sometimes a few months. As a Lincoln collector and copper enthusiast, I don't even care what the holder says in terms of color. I look at a copper for what it is right now. Buy the coin not the holder.

lkeigwin

The first three are all graded RB and I think PCGS was pretty tough. The fourth was upgraded from RB to RD during a Secure Plus regrade. I was surprised. I had hoped for a 66RB but got a 65RD instead.

Still, among a couple hundred gem RD and RB IHC's and Lincolns in my collection there are very few I disagree with.
Lance.

lusterlover

I would like to hear Stuart Blay's opinion on this....

WingedLiberty1957

I see what you mean Lance.
I wouldn't have blinked an eye if all of those had graded RD.
Although the last one is a tiny bit darker.

SeattleSlammer

As a collector I always want my BN designated copper to look RB and my RB designated copper to look RD. And if it's designated RD it better be blazing RD. At least that's the dream. Your specialty of wildly toned Lincolns most often seems best suited for the BN designation IMO so that you don't have to squabble over percentages of mint red versus various naturally occurring shades of red/orange toning. Love your obsession with colorful copper by the way and the regular postings of great images!

DeliaBug

<< <i>

<< <i>A lot of them start off correctly within these parameters

MJ >>



Thanks for that comment MJ

That 1960 Large Date I actually submitted raw in early 2012, and it looked just like that when I submitted.
The 1937 was NGC graded and I crossed that to PCGS about a year ago -- that one also looked just like that when I submitted.
So both of those coins havent changed since being graded.

The others I cannot speak for, since I bought them slabbed.
But that yellow 1964 has had a lot of owners over the years so I know the color is very stable on that one. >>



I believe what MJ was alluding to is that copper coins still tone while in the holder. A coin graded RD can turn RB in the holder over time. I personally do not buy red copper, only RB because of the huge differences in pricing. And the old school large cents most folks want that old olive color.