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Mystery 1942 one cent pattern? It has been analyzed using a Orbis Micro-XRF Elemental Analyzer - Ast
oreville
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I am investigating this 1942 pattern. Andy Lustig gave it a shot and now it is my turn with Roger Burdette's help.
Photograph is by Todd of bluccphotos.
Yes, the question is what is the composition of this pattern. A sem-x test was already performed on this pattern coordinated by NGC and they could not figure it out. There appears to be some non metallic ingredients mixed in with metallic ingredients but that is conjecture at this point.
It does not appear to be a J-2054 or any other J-20XX out there. But I will have to take this to an advanced chemical laboratory to such to figure this out.
Any help is appreciated.
Edited.... see the results.
Photograph is by Todd of bluccphotos.
Yes, the question is what is the composition of this pattern. A sem-x test was already performed on this pattern coordinated by NGC and they could not figure it out. There appears to be some non metallic ingredients mixed in with metallic ingredients but that is conjecture at this point.
It does not appear to be a J-2054 or any other J-20XX out there. But I will have to take this to an advanced chemical laboratory to such to figure this out.
Any help is appreciated.
Edited.... see the results.
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1942 pattern LINK
peacockcoins
don't the TPG offer metallurgic analysis for around $100?
Maybe you could consult with a recommend private firm.
the obv also resembles some centavo coins and some french coins maybe, others too.
also it seems odd that it would say US Mint on the reverse for that time period. for all you pattern buffs you can determine this lettering style and layout based on other issues as one more bit of info.
my knowledge of patterns is loose at best so i'm just throwing darts virtually blindly hoping at least one sticks.
.
<< <i>What is the question? Composition? >>
...ditto
If it is metal, he recommends metallurgical analysis. Also listed is that they were also struck in plastic by Durez Plastics and Chemicals, the Patent Button Company, Blue Ridge Glass Corporation, Bakelite Corporation and Colt Patent Firearms Company.
Seems like an interesting research project.....good luck
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The link DeliaBug listed is good information on this Experimental Composition Trial Piece.
1942 ECTPiece, obv. Capped Liberty head right, adapted from a 1918 Colombia 2-centavos piece
by John R. Sinnock. This head was used again in 1948 on a West German 20-mark note, Pick-9,
printed by the U.S. Bur. of Engraving and Printing. Liberty at left border, Justice at right, date below.
Rev. UNITED STATES MINT inside laurel wreath previously used on an 1860 $2.1/2, an 1863 3-cents,
several U.S. Mint George Washington medals, Julian PR-25&26 and MT-22, and an Abraham Lincoln
medal, Julian PR-36. Bronze. Plain Edge. Very rare.
Same, zinc-coated steel. Plain Edge. Very rare. Stacks 9/90, lot 53, $2750; Stacks (ST) 3/92, lot 1591,
MS $2100.
Same, manganese. Plain Edge. Very rare
Same, plastic various colors and textures. Plain Edge. Rare. Dark red, thick (approx. same as a proof
Jefferson nickel), 0.65 gms and thin (approx. same as a Proof Lincoln cent) 0.38 gms; ST 3/92, MS $1200.
Black (glossy surfaces but crumbling, fibrous edges) 0.35 gms. Bowers & Merena (BM) 1/92 sale: Black
$1320; Brown $1100; Red brown $1100 ; Tan $231 and brass-colored $1100. Many exist broken to test
durability. Typical specimen $1,000.
Same, Bakelite, various colors. Plain Edge. Very rare. Red; ST 9/90 sale, lot 54, $1760; 3/92, lot 1592
(same coin?) $1200 ; Green-Grey: ST 3/92, lot 1593, $600.
Same, aluminum. Plain Edge. Very rare $1000.
Pressed glass and other compositions reported. Some varying reports may refer to duplicate sightings of the
same piece due to different interpretations of colors and compositions. Regular design 1942 cents in brass and
zinc-coated steel reported, unconfirmed. Some may be on foreign planchets.
This information was taken from "The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of U.S. Coins", 2nd edition 1998,
By the Editors Of Coin World.
Should you have questions, or points of discussion regarding any of the above, please contact the Technical Editor
Mr. Thomas K. DeLorey.
R.I.P. Bear
<< <i>Please see updated OP posting for additional clarification. >>
Thank you for that.
What did the NGC test say, even if it was inconclusive?
"Manganese?"
Looks somewhat similar to the finish on early medals which had paper-like backings.
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Can you do a specific gravity on it?
I am curious about the whitish/yellow stuff in the date and elsewhere on the coin. I wonder if that whitish/yellow stuff is the source of the non-metallic contents of the SEM/EDX analysis.
Can you provide more information from the SEM EDX analysis? Besides Manganese, specifically what else did the analysis show?
At least one of the listed so-called dollars is made of this alloy, which is mostly magnesium.
Could make doing a specific gravity test rather dangerous!
I would still like to see more information from the SEM-EDX analysis that NGC performed.
<< <i>Manganese is an interesting possibility. It was available, non-strategic, and apparently it does oxidize badly (which is why the warnix turn dark).
Can you do a specific gravity on it? >>
...oxidizing is one of the problems with the prez bucks too, because of the manganese.
(1)
No. You may be thinking of sodium or potassium metal, which react violently with water.
Magnesium, while reactive, doesn't react very easily in metal form on account of it develops a coating of oxide very quickly. Heat fine shavings to a high enough temperature however and they'll melt before bursting into a brilliant white flame. Mix magnesium powder with rust and you have the makings of Thermite, a tool for burning through steel. Ah, anyway.
Here is a full compositional analysis for a typical lead type Bryan Money specimen: Lead (97.12%), Tin (0.86%), Iron (0.23%), Copper (0.33%), Zinc (0.1%), Platinum (0.25%), Gold (0.28%) and Bismuth (0.35%). Note that Tin, Iron and Copper are introduced to harden the alloy and we see gold a common contaminat in lead ore processing and with gold we usually find its brother element platinum as seen in silver alloys. Bismuth also being a trace mining ore by-product.
John Lorenzo
Numsmatist
United States
The Orbis Micro-XRF Elemental Analyzer has improved sensitivity for heavier elements compared to SEM/EDS. It also functions within a non-destructive air or vacuum environment for better testing environment and/or control.
John tested the obverse twice and the reverse twice in two different areas.
He was very deliberate and very careful in his analysis.
The results are astonishing!
It was NOT what we expected at all.
I will confirm the results with both John Lorenzo and Roger Burdette.
<< <i>This mystery 1942 pattern has finally been analyzed by John Lorenzo on one of the most advanced machinery available in the world. and the results are astonishing!
It was NOT what we expected at all.
I will confirm the results with both John Lorenzo and Roger Burdette. >>
Lemon curry?
No, no lemon curry.
It is a metallic pattern but NOT made of zinc plated steel!
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<< <i>Not lead at all. >>
Oh, I thought I read above that it is 97.12% lead...maybe I misread and that was another example. So what is this example?
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<< <i>Doesn't magnesium burst into flames when exposed to water?
No. You may be thinking of sodium or potassium metal, which react violently with water.
Magnesium, while reactive, doesn't react very easily in metal form on account of it develops a coating of oxide very quickly. Heat fine shavings to a high enough temperature however and they'll melt before bursting into a brilliant white flame. Mix magnesium powder with rust and you have the makings of Thermite, a tool for burning through steel. Ah, anyway. >>
I backpack a lot, and magnesium sticks are common fire-starter "tools." They definitely don't react to water. You scrape the mag stick with your knife or other metal tool, and sparks jump out onto the kindling.
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Strange!
I will follow up.
Thanks for the tease......
The 1942 Judd Pattern is of a predominant magnesium composition. We did confirm that it did not contain any manganese (J2055/P2075) and I mentioned to you the crude descriptions of these other Judd descriptions such as white metal, aluminum and lead? This appears unique as a Mg/Al/Si/Sb type alloy.
For continuity we analyzed two XRF spots on the obverse and two XRF spots on the reverse to see the homogenous nature of the speciemn.
Some results do not always equal 100% because sometime other minor constiuents may appear outside the targeted fingerprint list.
The weight of the 1942 Judd Pattern is 2.5 grams and a diameter of 18.9 mm.
The detailed results are shown in the next post.
The findings are:
Obverse.......................................Reverse
Copper 0.40%/2.70%.................0.50%/0.43%
Al 10.00%/9.80%.....................7.70%/10.37%
Mg 71.30%/69.94%..................70.50%/70.44%
Si 7.00%/6.50%........................7.50%/7.45%
Sulfur 0.70%/ 0.66%...................0.75%/0.71%
Sb 10.60%/ 10.40%....................11.33%/10.60%
What is really interesting is that the Manganese metal used in the 1942-1945 war nickels is NOT seen in this pattern! Gosh I must be tired! I reverse the metals in my head!
The next step is to bring some war nickels (one uncirculated and one circulated) as a control to compare them to this pattern to confirm this!
<< <i>
What is really interesting is that the predominant metal used in the 1942-1945 war nickels is possibly seen here as well.
The next step is to bring some war nickels (one uncirculated and one circulated) as a control to compare them to this pattern. >>
Not sure what you're saying here... the predominant metal in a war nickel is copper, right?? Followed by silver and manganese...
There seems to be hardly any copper in your pattern and no silver or manganese.
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<< <i>... The results are astonishing! It was NOT what we expected at all. ... >>
Not astonishing to me. In fact, it is what I expected
I said as much on the first page of this thread
<< <i>My first reaction, upon seeing the pictures, is that it is "Dow Metal".
At least one of the listed so-called dollars is made of this alloy, which is mostly magnesium. >>
Per Wikipedia:
Years Material Mass (grams)
1793–1796 100% copper 13.48
1796–1857 100% copper 10.89
1856–1864 88% copper, 12% nickel (also known as NS-12) 4.67
1864–1942 "bronze" (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc) 3.11
1943 zinc-coated steel (also known as 1943 steel cent) 2.67
1944–1946 "brass" (95% copper, 5% zinc) 3.11
1946–1962 "bronze" (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc)
1962–1981 "brass" (95% copper, 5% zinc)
1982 varies: "brass" (95% copper, 5% zinc) or copper-plated zinc (97.5% zinc, 2.5% copper)[7] 3.11 or 2.5
1983–present 97.5% zinc, 2.5% copper (core: 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper; plating: pure copper)[8] 2.5