Newp - 1720 Switzerland Beromuenster 1/2 Thaler

JohnnyCache

Picked this up over the weekend.

I really like the obverse design.

I'm sorry for the quality of the pictures.

I tried my camera and my scanner but neither really brought out the coin as it truely appears. What can you do


Hope you enjoy.


JC

worldcoinguy

Spectacular design on pieces from that particular Canton. You picked up a wonderful piece. MS-63?

JCMhouston

Very nice, I like that one a lot.

marcmoish

cool pc indeed - prob graded EF45

mudskippie

I like the coin and welcome you to the forum.

coinpictures

Nice and crusty! I agree with the EF45 assessment, but I can see it going AU depending on the norm for the type.

Zohar

Beauty I will bet on a 55 grade. Very nice.

JohnnyCache

With respect to the grade it's NGC MS62

But believe me, these are just horrible pictures and don't do the coin justice.

I'll have to look into some kind of picture taking equipment.

Thanks for the comments!!

marcmoish

sorry while I love the pc there is no way in h--- thats a 62.

Don't be so quick to knock your skills - thats a nice picture -

Very frustrating to see such disparity...if thats the case some of my AU58's are MS66's

look at the high points center shield, stomach and rev the entire center line from 12 ocklock down to 6 what is that?? That is WEAR unless I am totally off and this is a weak strike which I don't think it is.

Really like it alot though for what it is - great EA - JMHO - slam away

JohnnyCache

As far as the grade goes, I’ll be perfectly honest and say that I personally do not have the expertise with this type of coinage to determine if this coin is grossly over graded. I’m more of a gold coin guy, particularly eight escudos, but even I would not have thought MS62, perhaps AU58, again this really isn’t my area of knowledge. That said I feel I paid a reasonable price for the coin and I bought it more for the fact my youngest daughter, who came to the show with me, really liked it and thought it was cool looking. The fact is, it doesn’t really fit in with my collection but given the memory that she and I can share when we look at it, coupled with the fact that I think it’s got a neat look to it too, it’s a keeper.

You know I found that, collectively speaking, when folks on the board see a coin and give a grade, and a consensus begins to develop, overall, eliminating the extreme outliers, the group typically nails it. I’d like to hear from some board users who are more knowledgeable with this kind of coin to get their thoughts on NGC’s grading and just how far off the mark it is, and why that may be the case. Or if in agreement, what is it about this coin that warrants the grade that we may not be picking up on.

I would really like for folks to tell me what they would pay for a coin like this, or give what they think a fair market value for this coin would be. Please reply. I’ll let you know after what I paid, hopefully it won’t sting too much. LOL.

Zohar

JohnnyCache you did very well.

worldcoinguy

I guessed MS-63 due to similar strikes and conditions I have seen on german and austrian state pieces. I have seen some AU-58 that look better than MS-63 and vice versa, so I do not know the magical grading secret. I have mistaken flat strikes several times for wear on pieces, and I also noticed an absence of contact marks in the fields on the images posted. Many of the Beromuenster pieces that I have seen in recent auctions have graded above average so my grade guess followed that trend.

Out of curiosity, I queried the population for the 1/2T KM-5 variety at NGC today and found the following:
AU-58 - 1
MS-61 - 1
MS-62 - 1
MS-63 - 3
MS-64 - 2

JohnnyCache

<< <i>I guessed MS-63 due to similar strikes and conditions I have seen on german and austrian state pieces. I have seen some AU-58 that look better than MS-63 and vice versa, so I do not know the magical grading secret. I have mistaken flat strikes several times for wear on pieces, and I also noticed an absence of contact marks in the fields on the images posted. Many of the Beromuenster pieces that I have seen in recent auctions have graded above average so my grade guess followed that trend.

Out of curiosity, I queried the population for the 1/2T KM-5 variety at NGC today and found the following:
AU-58 - 1
MS-61 - 1
MS-62 - 1
MS-63 - 3
MS-64 - 2 >>




Thanks World Coin Guy I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and your reasoning related to your original grading guess!

I find it curious that given the commentary I have read recently that these coins are "Very scarce in mint state due to their popularity as pocket touch pieces" ( per Heritage's description on an upcoming piece to be actioned in January Beromunster KM5, MS63 NGC that, first there aren't more of theses coins graded, and second, that those that have been graded by NGC all fall into fairly higher grades. Don't you think you would have expected to see at least a couple of XF's mixed in there?

marcmoish

You write very eloquently I admire that.

Its a great piece regardless - Johnny you likely did NOT overpay - you bought it the way a true collector does.

I have yet to hear clear rebuttals to my comments so I will assume some agree with me - I was only stating MHO re the numeric grade only - as I see it - I am and was very clear in that the piece itself is truly nice - wonderful eye appeal and I like it alot too

JohnnyCache

<< <i>You write very eloquently I admire that.

Its a great piece regardless - Johnny you likely did NOT overpay - you bought it the way a true collector does.

I have yet to hear clear rebuttals to my comments so I will assume some agree with me - I was only stating MHO re the numeric grade only - as I see it - I am and was very clear in that the piece itself is truly nice - wonderful eye appeal and I like it alot too >>




Marcmoish I understand exactly what you were saying in your original post and I value everyone's opinion, truly I do. So believe me I get it, and we are not necessarily in disagreement, but regardless I would not take any offence as a result of someone else sharing their opinion. After all, as one members tag line reads "if we are all thinking the same thing then someone isn't thinking" no truer words could be said, especially with regard to a topic as subjective as coins and coin grading is concerned.

There are people in life, and we have all encountered them, that argue, disagree, protest, throw tantrums and jump up and down when we do not aline our views with theirs. That isn't, and will never be, me. I love listening, or, in the case of these boards, reading what others feel and think. I find it particularly enjoyable when people provide not only their opinions but their reasoning, their thought process, behind their theories and conclusions.

It really almost doesn't matter what subject it is that's being discussed, I find it fascinating how different peoples life experiences and the environment from which they live their daily lives can lead them to have a particular thought process and how that can affect and influence their opinions. I have found I that I have become so much more enriched in life from listening to others and taking it all in. This is not to say I always drink the cool aid, but rather I like to listen, ponder and retain what I think is valuable. Those that want to be in the right all the time are missing out in the beauty of life.


Now that Ive put everyone to sleep with that long winded speech lets hear from some of you folks, for nothing other than the fun of a discussion on an otherwise quiet evening, what are your thoughts.

Grade? agree, disagree, why
Price? / Fair market Valuation?
Heritage commentary? Accurate or sales pitch?

AuroraRarities

I must say that is a very appealing piece. Your daughter certainly has an eye for coins!

While my knowledge of these Swiss Canton coins is very limited, using the photo from my Krause book, the Heritage auction you linked, and photos of several other coins from the same Canton with similar design elements, it appears that the area with the stag and lion are poorly defined on many of these coins. And yet, the crown and flourish as well as the leaves appear to have good detail on your coin. I'm inclined to believe that this may actually be weak strike, especially since the same area on the opposing side of the coin has a lot of raised elements and, again, weakness. Perhaps the high relief design was not as well suited to production striking and simply required more than most planchets could reasonably manage. Something akin to the weak strike found on 1857 U.S. eagle cents.

Your coin is darker than some which accentuates St. Michael's wings nicely. The glitter of color showing through makes them glow! Also, as another poster noted, there are relatively few contact marks in the fields for a coin of this size.

While I am certainly no expert in this series, based on the photos and bit of research I did (which is so much fun!), I am actually inclined to agree with the stated grade of MS-62.

Regardless, I think this is an exquisite coin with classical design elements that appeal to the eye and imagination of any numismatist.

Thank you for sharing!

theboz11

Great piece. I am unfamiliar with it, but the detail in the depths belies the weak strike notion IMO. The change of Color, as if rubbed and toned lighter on the belly and other high spot would have lead me to a XF grade also coin. granted your pictures are not good enough to see the details needed for Field view, but looks like it has quite a few small hits, no scratches though. Am I right in the hits? What is that a 11:00 on the obverse rim?

You done good on that one sir, but I think the grader was asleep at the switch.

JohnnyCache

Aurora and Boz - Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.


I'm more than somewhat embarrassed to admit it but I, in a-typical fashion for me, purchased this coin rather blindly, putting probably a bit too much faith into the grade of the holder and perhaps also into the fairness of the dealer as well. I didn't have a baseline price available to me at that moment from which to judge the deal and went off of my best recollections which were fuzzy at best. That being said, if I ended up paying a little "tuition" on the deal, better it be on a coin my daughter liked and wanted, as it makes it much harder for me to be mad at myself.
.


While I wouldn't recommend that folks buy anything blindly I'm sure most here have acted on impulse rather than sound judgement once or twice, it happens.
I can say that I'm thrilled with the coin based on my daughters reaction and my love of the obverse design, it just evokes a reaction in you when you see it, at least it does for me.
I paid $500.00 for it. So tell me if you can, did I get a Bachelor's, Master's or Doctorate Degree for my tuition money?

JC

worldcoinguy

I think you did just fine at that price. You could unload on ebay tomorrow and make some extra.

Unfortunately you just described half of my purchases.....gut feel, impulse, and putting too much faith in the holder, but sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut, right?

marcmoish

Johnny, You know what?

You learnt valuable lessons here. You held your chin high. Next time you will know 10 times better what to ask, what to compare it to, and price-wise perhaps all of the above has made you a better collector.

Many a dealer (yes I read between the lines) will take you for a ride. from the low leverl ones to the higher ups. Many are despicable salepeoples and prey on various parts of the soul that are vulnerable at said time of purchase. I guarantee it won't happen again to you

Cost? $500!
You know I bet, and I guarantee you many of us, I included have LOST lots of money in similiar situations as newbies or/ AND as experineced collectors.
Those that claim not so - are FOS!

We are all human. You as noble as you are kept it in the family and let the most important thing in the world dictate the outcome. The fact that your daughter loves the piece is more important than anything else.

Enough said, and welcome to the boards.

Marc

Zohar

This piece is worth $500. No loss here.