Wax Trays and Legitimacy

PaulMaul

I've heard people talking about wax trays being faked. I can understand how if someone happened to have a supply of real trays, that they could be searched and resealed. Since the older trays themselves are rare, this seems like a pretty uncommon event.

Unlike regular wax packs, it doesn't seem plausible to just "make up" wax trays since the trays and cello wraps are not readily available pre-1979.

From a cursory investigation, it appears (for baseball) that 1978 and 1979 trays have the same tray and cello wrap. If that's the case, it would seem like the only real danger would be the copious '79 trays being opened and re-sealed with 1978 packs, creating the rarer 1978 trays.

So, for baseball, are 1978 trays the main ones to be "careful" of? Am I missing anything here?

grote15

<< <i>I've heard people talking about wax trays being faked. I can understand how if someone happened to have a supply of real trays, that they could be searched and resealed. Since the older trays themselves are rare, this seems like a pretty uncommon event.

Unlike regular wax packs, it doesn't seem plausible to just "make up" wax trays since the trays and cello wraps are not readily available pre-1979.

From a cursory investigation, it appears (for baseball) that 1978 and 1979 trays have the same tray and cello wrap. If that's the case, it would seem like the only real danger would be the copious '79 trays being opened and re-sealed with 1978 packs, creating the rarer 1978 trays.

So, for baseball, are 1978 trays the main ones to be "careful" of? Am I missing anything here? >>



Like any other pack (wax, cello or rack) wax trays can be fabricated, but the ones I've encountered that have been looked very suspect to begin with. Of all the unopened packs, I'd say wax trays are probably the MOST difficult to fabricate as the packaging is much more difficult to open and reseal and the cellophane is much thinner than what Topps used for cello packs. I'd say that there are far more resealed wax, cello and racks than trays.

Edit to add: I've seen a couple of early BB wax trays that had the wrong tray and/or product code, and that is the thing to be mindful of, as Topps used the same tray from 77 through 80, but different trays with different ads prior to 77.

PaulMaul

Thanks Tim. As for 1977-1980, I believe the 1977 trays have a tray coded -6 which still has the pre-printed UPC code on it, whereas the ones from 1978 and 1979 have a tray coded -8 which lacks the UPC code (since the code was on the cello wrap for those two years). Although, in searching forum posts about trays, someone mentioned having a '79 tray where there was a UPC on both the tray and the cello, which seems odd.

PFB

I have a 1978 Topps Tray that has a UPC on the front. I asked Steve, he said that he hasn't seen one like this - I sent it to him today to validate if it was real. Tim (Grote15) saw a picture of it, and thought it looked real (Tim, please let me know if I am miss quoting you).

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/user/pfb1974/library/Topps Trays

I think thing that is tough with Topps, especially during the 70's, the reuse of their old packaging. In my opinion, it makes it a lot tougher to tell what is real and what is fake. I do agree, with the cellophane being so thin, I would imagine it would be pretty tough to reseal.

PaulMaul

<< <i>I have a 1978 Topps Tray that has a UPC on the front. I asked Steve, he said that he hasn't seen one like this - I sent it to him today to validate if it was real. Tim (Grote15) saw a picture of it, and thought it looked real (Tim, please let me know if I am miss quoting you).

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/user/pfb1974/library/Topps Trays

I think thing that is tough with Topps, especially during the 70's, the reuse of their old packaging. In my opinion, it makes it a lot tougher to tell what is real and what is fake. I do agree, with the cellophane being so thin, I would imagine it would be pretty tough to reseal. >>



Hey Peter! Here's the tray in question. I'm interested in getting a look at the back eventually, but I see no reason to think it's fake because I haven't seen this type of cello packaging around on other common releases. My guess is it's just a variant type of cello wrap that must have been used. Again, seeing the back of the tray and the code numbers on the tray and the cello would be another clue.

PFB

I added the back of the pack to photobucket. it's the one just before the 1978 pack.

Thanks for the help!

PaulMaul

After examining the back scan, it appears to me that the tray used for this '78 pack is the same one used for the 1977 trays, i.e. it has a tray code ending in -6 and has the UPC code directly printed on the tray.

Meanwhile, this cello wrap has a different code than the normal kind. The code on this one is 0-081-55-01-8. On the normal '78's, the code has 458 instead of 081.
In fact, the code on this one is similar to the code on the '77 cello overwrap, except the year is -8 instead of -7.

I'd say all of this speaks in favor of it being legit. Other opinions?

PaulMaul

To speculate a bit, it looks like this '78 tray pack was probably an early one from that year, where the trays from '77 were still being used. For whatever reason, the UPC on the tray was no longer accurate, so a cello overwrap was produced with the UPC on the front so as not to confusingly overlap the one on the back of the tray.

Later, a new tray for '78 was designed without the UPC code printed on, and so a new cello overwrap that would position the UPC on the back (now that there was no code on the tray to confuse it with) was produced.

So this cello wrap with the UPC code on the front likely would not have been used for any other year, because it was just a stopgap until the new tray without the UPC on the back was produced.

PFB

Just to close the loop on this one. I sent the pack to Steve, he received it today, and said that it was completely legitimate. I guess as have discussed, it must have been an early run, and packaging from the 1977 must have been used.

Thanks to everyone, and special thanks to Steve & BBCE (always willing to help us out!!!).

StarPaxMan

<< <i>

<< <i>I have a 1978 Topps Tray that has a UPC on the front. I asked Steve, he said that he hasn't seen one like this - I sent it to him today to validate if it was real. Tim (Grote15) saw a picture of it, and thought it looked real (Tim, please let me know if I am miss quoting you).

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/user/pfb1974/library/Topps Trays

I think thing that is tough with Topps, especially during the 70's, the reuse of their old packaging. In my opinion, it makes it a lot tougher to tell what is real and what is fake. I do agree, with the cellophane being so thin, I would imagine it would be pretty tough to reseal. >>



Hey Peter! Here's the tray in question. I'm interested in getting a look at the back eventually, but I see no reason to think it's fake because I haven't seen this type of cello packaging around on other common releases. My guess is it's just a variant type of cello wrap that must have been used. Again, seeing the back of the tray and the code numbers on the tray and the cello would be another clue.

>>



The upc on the front was used for some non-sport trays,
like MORK & MINDY...JAWS etc.

PaulMaul

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I have a 1978 Topps Tray that has a UPC on the front. I asked Steve, he said that he hasn't seen one like this - I sent it to him today to validate if it was real. Tim (Grote15) saw a picture of it, and thought it looked real (Tim, please let me know if I am miss quoting you).

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/user/pfb1974/library/Topps Trays

I think thing that is tough with Topps, especially during the 70's, the reuse of their old packaging. In my opinion, it makes it a lot tougher to tell what is real and what is fake. I do agree, with the cellophane being so thin, I would imagine it would be pretty tough to reseal. >>



Hey Peter! Here's the tray in question. I'm interested in getting a look at the back eventually, but I see no reason to think it's fake because I haven't seen this type of cello packaging around on other common releases. My guess is it's just a variant type of cello wrap that must have been used. Again, seeing the back of the tray and the code numbers on the tray and the cello would be another clue.

>>



The upc on the front was used for some non-sport trays,
like MORK & MINDY...JAWS etc. >>



The only non-sport trays I'd heard about are Superman and Battlestar Galactica. Do you recall what tray was used for the non-sport releases? I.e, what was the back of the tray like? Same as the sports releases?

Do you doubt that this '78 tray is legit? Seems like if this cello were used for '78 non-sport releases it could just as well be used for '78 sports releases.

grote15

Early on in 1978, Topps used same cardboard trays they used in 1977 where the UPC code was printed directly on the tray itself. The UPC code on these trays was 4111600481 . On these early 78 trays, Topps used a cello wrapping which had a white square printed directly on the back that they positioned to help block the outdated UPC code from being scanned (see also above pic) and it's on those trays that you will find the UPC code printed directly on the cello on the front of the tray like the one pictured above (to avoid confusion with the outdated and blocked UPC code on the back of the tray). Later on in 1978, Topps began using cardboard trays with no UPC printed on the tray itself, the same cardboard trays they continued to use through 1980 and on those trays (later 1978 trays and 1979 and 1980 trays) you will find the UPC code is printed directrly on the cello wrapping and it appears on the back of the tray.

PaulMaul

Thanks, Tim, for confirming what I thought was going on with these. It's an interesting variation I hadn't ever seen before now.