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Do you crack out coins for grading
boxeldercoin
Posts: 69
Hi, I was wondering how many of you out there crack out your coins from old holders or do you send them back in slabbed for regrading or crossover? I have done both with mixed results. Jim
Hi, I am a ANA, Central States, South Dakota, Black hills coin and stamp club member. My wife and I are both collectors for around 45 years.
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First just a note that everything I say below applies to NGC coins (only) in crossover submissions to PCGS. I do not deal with any other slabbing company other than PCGS and NGC.
My general rule is:
If the coin has good value in the old slab, say over $200 to $300, then typically i send it in the old slab, since you always run the risk with crack outs that the coin will never slab again (even with the same grading company). This is especially true with colorfully toned coins, since grading companies often change standards of what is market acceptible over a long stretch of years.
If the coin is relatively cheap (say under $200 to $300 or so) then I have cracked coins out of NGC slabs and submitted raw to PCGS with fantastic results.
I had an NGC MS67RB Lincoln Cent that I submitted in the NGC slab ... which PCGS DNC'd (did not cross) in Summer 2011, so I am guessing they wanted to MS65 or MS66 the coin.
However when I cracked that same coin out of the NGC slab and sent it in raw (one year later) ... PCGS came back with an MS67BN grade.
So cracking a coin out really depends on how big of a gamble you are willing to take (how much $$ you are willing to lose, potentially).
I will say this though, that most of my NGC slabbed coins that I sent in for crossing to PCGS do not cross at the same grade, typically they drop a grade or two. This is especially true of copper. I have had two NGC PF67 Lincoln Cents from the 1960's, that downgraded 2 levels all the way to PR65 by PCGS.
I have better luck getting silver NGC coins to cross to PCGS at grade.
However when I crack these same DNC'd coins out and submit raw ... they not only typically cross at grade, sometimes they actually upgrade by one grade level (and once by two grade levels!)
I have never had an NGC slabbed coin upgrade when crossing to PCGS though -- the best you can hope for is the same grade or lower when submitting in the NGC slab. At least that has been my experience with about 30 to 40 NGC crossing submissions to PCGS.
Would be curious to hear what others have experienced.
[Just a quick note on submitting crossover coins to PCGS, you have to specify on the submission form what is the minimum grade you will accept from PCGS. If you leave that column blank, it defaults to the current slabbed grade. So this might be a typical scenerio. First you submit the coin in the NGC slab and ask for at least the same grade as NGC assigned. Next PCGS either crosses the coin at the same grade or higher ... or gives you an DNC (Did not cross). In this latter case, you get the coin back from PCGS still in the NGC holder. Next, a decision: 1.) leave the coin in the NGC slab and call it a day; 2.) submit the coin again specifying 1 or 2 grades lower is the minimum grade you will accept (this typically does the trick for me); or 3.) crack the coin out of the NGC slab and submit raw (yes you can send the coin to PCGS still in the NGC slab and they will crack it out for you and the graders will NEVER see the old slab or know the old grade -- according to their policies).] I have had great luck with this 3rd option, but it is risky. If the coin is very high priced I might go with option 2.) if I really want to get the coin in PCGS plastic.]
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>For me it depends on the value of the coin.
First just a note that everything I say below applies to NGC coins (only) in crossover submissions to PCGS. I do not deal with any other slabbing company other than PCGS and NGC.
My general rule is:
If the coin has good value in the old slab, say over $300, then typically i send it in the old slab, since you always run the risk with crack outs that the coin will never slab again (even with the same grading company). This is especially true with colorfully toned coins, since grading companies often change standards of what is market acceptible over a long stretch of years.
If the coin is relatively cheap (say under $300 or so) then I have cracked coins out of NGC slabs and submitted raw to PCGS with fantastic results.
I had an NGC MS67RB Lincoln Cent that PCGS DNC'd (did not cross) in 2011, so I am guessing they wanted to MS65 or MS66 the coin.
However when I cracked that same coin out of the NGC slab and sent it in raw (one year later) ... PCGS came back with an MS67BN grade.
So cracking a coin out really depends on how big of a gamble you are willing to take
I will say this though, that most of my NGC slabbed coins that I sent in for crossing to PCGS do not cross at the same grade, typically they drop a grade or two. This is especially true of copper. I have better luck getting silver NGC coins to cross to PCGS at grade.
However when I crack these same DNC'd coins out and submit raw ... they not only typically cross at grade, sometimes they actually upgrade by a grade level (and sometimes 2!)
I have never had an NGC slabbed coin upgrade when crossing to PCGS though -- the best you can hope for is the same grade or lower when submitting in the NGC slab.
At least that has been my experience with about 30 to 40 NGC crossing submissions to PCGS.
Would be curious to hear what others have experienced. >>
sad.. so they dont tape up the grade and company name on a crossover ..
I do have a question however, if you crack out a newly graded PCGS coin in hopes that you get a higher grade the next time, will this still work? I know they have that new machine that reads the finger print of the coin, so I figured it no longer works to resubmit. I have had success on one or two occasions on resubmitting because I didn't agree with the PCGS given grade and got it bumped up one grade.
I don't know how PCGS does crossover grading exactly ...
Maybe someone else might know.
These are just my experiences over the past 1.5 years with about 30 to 40 NGC crossing submissions, which is kind of a small sample to draw definitive conclusions.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
For those that do send coins to PCGS for re-grading, here's a tip. Leave them in their current holder. That takes away the downside and doesn't affect the upside. It also saves you from having to crack out the coin.
The first thing PCGS does is remove the coin from its holder, so the graders evaluate a raw coin anyway.
Crosses have to be conservative as at least part of the coin is concealed.
Taping would not conceal the TPG.
Lance.
NGC coins almost always lose 1 grade. I have much better results on anacs coins which usually cross at grade and some upgrade.
<< <i>box elders have been a real pain in the A$$ this year. >>
I joined this forum because I thought that this forum was made up of serious coin collectors. The last forum had so many immature posters it was hard to have a serious post. After reading this post and wondering if this a personal attack or what, maybe I do not belong on this forum.
I've also sent several NGC coins in for crossover with the same pattern, a one point downgrade from the NGC's.
With nothing to lose I decided to start cracking out instead of going the crossover route.
The results have been incredible.
Of at least 40 crackouts, half have come back with the grade NGC gave them, 10-15 have grades one point higher and 3 have been upgraded by 2 points ( one PR64 to PR66 and two PR65's to PR67).
Only 2 have been Genuined, one due to PVC residue and one due to environmental damage.
I believe it is also cheaper to send in raw than the crossover fee.
Better results and lower cost is a no brainer to me.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
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<< <i>box elders have been a real pain in the A$$ this year. >>
I joined this forum because I thought that this forum was made up of serious coin collectors. The last forum had so many immature posters it was hard to have a serious post. After reading this post and wondering if this a personal attack or what, maybe I do not belong on this forum.
I thought Jim's comment was a play on words and not a personal attack. Box elders = old TPG slabs?
Lance.
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<< <i>box elders have been a real pain in the A$$ this year. >>
I joined this forum because I thought that this forum was made up of serious coin collectors. The last forum had so many immature posters it was hard to have a serious post. After reading this post and wondering if this a personal attack or what, maybe I do not belong on this forum.
I thought Jim's comment was a play on words and not a personal attack. Box elders = old TPG slabs?
Lance. >>
I have been collecting for 45 years and have attended dozens of major show and even more small shows and have never heard of old slabs called Box Elders. I heard of rattlers, green , dolly, soap, soap box and so on.
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<< <i>box elders have been a real pain in the A$$ this year. >>
I joined this forum because I thought that this forum was made up of serious coin collectors. The last forum had so many immature posters it was hard to have a serious post. After reading this post and wondering if this a personal attack or what, maybe I do not belong on this forum.
I'm sure she is talking about the box elder bugs invading her home and yard. She is not trying to hurt you. It does take a little bit of the thick skin at times. If your ever wrong or open for a hit you might just get it. Just don't take anything personal. Be here to gain the knowledge your looking for on coins and leave the crap where it lies. This is my advice to you.
Welcome to the forum! I hope you choose to stick around.
<< <i>The first thing PCGS does is remove the coin from its holder, so the graders evaluate a raw coin anyway. >>
That is only true for regrades. Crossovers are get a preliminary grade assigned while still in the other TPG holder.
Upgrades do happen, too.
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<< <i>
<< <i>box elders have been a real pain in the A$$ this year. >>
I joined this forum because I thought that this forum was made up of serious coin collectors. The last forum had so many immature posters it was hard to have a serious post. After reading this post and wondering if this a personal attack or what, maybe I do not belong on this forum.
I'm sure she is talking about the box elder bugs invading her home and yard. She is not trying to hurt you. It does take a little bit of the thick skin at times. If your ever wrong or open for a hit you might just get it. Just don't take anything personal. Be here to gain the knowledge your looking for on coins and leave the crap where it lies. This is my advice to you.
Welcome to the forum! I hope you choose to stick around. >>
Hi, I was taught a few things from my grandfather that I try to live by, Never assume as you end up being the first three letters of the word, fight for what is right even if you know you will lose, and don't take crap from anyone. That is why I asked what was up.
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<< <i>The first thing PCGS does is remove the coin from its holder, so the graders evaluate a raw coin anyway. >>
That is only true for regrades. Crossovers are get a preliminary grade assigned while still in the other TPG holder. >>
unless you do secure plus, in which case you have to agree to crack out first. interestingly though...they will not crack out if the coin won't grade and they can tell that by examining it in the holder first....IF you check "do not holder genuine" coins. i submitted an ngc coin to secure plus cross over like so and it came back dnc/altered surfaces in the ngc holder even though i specified cross at any grade, as well.
There are lots of coins in any holder you can imagine.
Why add stress to what should be fun?
Now if you like to gamble or think you're better than the graders from wherever it was slabbed, then have at it.
I support this with these observations:
I submitted a PCGS MS64RB 1919-s Lincoln for regrade in holder, and it came back MS64RD. That's a $1500 bump.
I submitted an NGC MS62BN 1914-d for crossover in holder, and it came back PCGS MS62BN. An in-holder resubmission about a year later yielded an MS63BN. What's that worth?
I submitted an NGC PR66BN 1914 for crossover in holder, and it came back DNC. Submitted it again with Min Grade PR65BN, and it actually came back PR66+BN.
On the other side of that coin, I have been pretty lucky with crackouts, save for a certain PCGS MS65RD 1915 Lincoln that I foolishly cracked out of the holder, and after several submissions, remains to be graded "Genuine" so definitely you are taking your chances there.
Empty Nest Collection
BTW, I've played the crossover and crackout game just enough to know that it's really not for me. If you really need a coin in a particular slab, it's usually better to buy it that way from the get-go. Extrememly rare varieties, profoundly undergraded coins, and coins that I don't mind taking a risk on are the exception. To date, I've had enough upgrades to break even on the grading fees overall, but it would only take one failed crackout to wipe out that little gain.
Looking at it from the perspective of PCGS, once they grade a coin, they're on the hook for it in terms of their guarantee. I suspect it doesn't take much to assign a coin a "did not cross" grade. I also suspect that if you're willing to cross a grade or two lower, they're a bit more apt to actually crack the thing and take a closer look. At that point, your odds of getting the grade you want are better.
Anyone know what happens when they successfully "cross" a coin, crack it, and then find a huge problem that wasn't visible before the crackout? Surely it happens.
A non sequitur (Latin for "It does not follow") is a conversational and literary device, often used for comedic purposes. It is something said that, because of its apparent lack of meaning relative to what preceded it. It seems absurd to the point of being humorous or confusing.
Now what would be funny is if in a few weeks/months/years everyone starts referring to old TPG slabs as box elders. (If that happens, we will all know where this slang term started).
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>Winged liberty, my experience with crossing from NGC to PCGS has been the same.
I do have a question however, if you crack out a newly graded PCGS coin in hopes that you get a higher grade the next time, will this still work? I know they have that new machine that reads the finger print of the coin, so I figured it no longer works to resubmit. I have had success on one or two occasions on resubmitting because I didn't agree with the PCGS given grade and got it bumped up one grade. >>
You still have grading risk doing that. No guarantee that PCGS will grade it a 2nd time through, but like you found, you could luck out and get a better grade also.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Obviously, I do not consider my Doilies or older NGCs for regrading.
Drunner
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>I never crack out; I always regrade in the holder.
Upgrades do happen, too. >>
...that's exactly the way i would do it too.
<< <i>I generally don't send in coins for re-grading. I have crossed over a number of coins to PCGS.
For those that do send coins to PCGS for re-grading, here's a tip. Leave them in their current holder. That takes away the downside and doesn't affect the upside. It also saves you from having to crack out the coin.
The first thing PCGS does is remove the coin from its holder, so the graders evaluate a raw coin anyway. >>
Crossover and re-regrade are 2 different animals. At PCGS re-grade only applies to PCGS coins while crossover applies to coins in TPG holders that are other than PCGS graded coins. You should never crack out a coin submitted for regrade. For crossovers, there are 2 types cross at a certain grade or higher or cross at any grade. PCGS won't crack out any crossover coin unless they have seen it in the holder first.
Two reasons that many coins won't cross is because the edge usually isn't visible and the thicker plastic of the NGC slab makes it harder to assess the coin.