Is CAM and DCAM enough?

braddick

We have ten MintState and ten Proof grades. Why only two Cameo descriptors? I see some Franklins that have stunning, deep Cameos. It would seem there should be a CAMEO DEEP CAMEO and ULTRA DEEP CAMEO adjectives used- kind of what ANACS does with their Morgan dollars and ProofLike.
I know Rick Tomaska uses a plus and minus system with his Cameo descriptions in his newsletter and pricelist. It would make sense if the grading services bumped it up just a notch too. I'm not talking about adding a whole bunch, but simply turning two CAMEO values into three.

danarchy

I think I would be fond of "kinda cameo"



dan

CarlWohlforth

kinda cameo, that is like some NGC cameos right?

Coin Finder

I like: Super Duper in your face sand blasted deep friggin cameo...or S.D.I.Y.F.S.B.D F cameo!!!


Tbig

CarlWohlforth

Hey, thebigeng, I am a big buyer of S.D.I.Y.F.S.B.D F cameos!!

Typetone

Forget it. We have enough da*mm grade modifiers now. Instead let's drop all grade modifiers and let collectors figure out what they like rather than being told.

Greg

Bcsican

I like Dans " kinda cameo",....I have a 1964 Kennedy PCGS PR 69 Accent Hair that is "kinda cameo".....if it had cameo or deep cameo it would be "kinda expensive".....

Gerry

One of thedealers on eBay uses the grade "lost cameo," but I guess that's not quite what you have in mind.

quattrocoins

I think that this is a very legit question, and one that I was thinking of asking PCGS myself. As a proof collector and care taker of the current #3 Washington Quarters Proof (1936-1964), I have seen the many degrees of cameo (as I'm sure most here have). Considering the price differences between the cams and non-cams proofs from 1950 - 1964 (especially early '50s, and not to mention deep cam$), I think that a more detailed description would be warranted. I think that there should be at least three degrees of cameo ( maybe "light", "cam", and "Deep"). Plus, I think that the two sides could be noted separately (as ANACS? does). This could help "price" coins as to their cameo grades.

Of course they could really fine tune it and give us a 1-10 cameo scale ( x 2)!

Wadaya think, Mitch?

Regards,

Don

PR69DCAMs and

MJCoin

Descriptions and designations are fine, but if we don't already have a good idea of the Cameo extremes between certain date coins then we'll be at the mercy of the grading services. I have seen ICG designated Deep Cameos that I wouldn't even expect to go Cameo. The same holds true for PCGS, NGC and ANACS with iffy Cameo designations. We need to make the final determination as to the degree of contrast and the value of the coin. I guess what I'm saying is do the research then buy the coin.

Monstavet

Wasn't there a Boy George song about this, maybe twenty years ago.....?

"Kindakindakindakindakinda Cameooooocoin.....
You kinda glooooooooooowwww......
Your price will grooooow - oh -oh oh!"

Maybe I'm trippin'?

roadrunner

If cameos stay popular for years then it's likely the standard will be extended much as the MS standard was during the 1980's. I could see 10 degrees of cameo. But I could also see 10 degrees of Merc dime bands:

1. IWIWSB (I wish it were split bands)
2. MSB (maybe split bands)
3. PSB (possibly split)
4. ITISB (I think it's split (don't you?))
5. PSSB (pretty sure split bands)
6. OSB (ostensibly split bands)
7. EKIFB (everyone knows it's split bands)
8. NBSB (no brainer split bands)
9. KSB (killer split bands)
10. GSB (Godzilla split bands)
11. YDWK (You don't wanna know split bands.....the ultimate...sort of like MS75)

roadrunner

supercoin

Cameo contrast is difficult to judge from photos (and easily manipulated by the photographer), so in theory it would be nice to have a better idea for mail-order buying.

There was a thread a while back where it was mentioned that cameo contrast is one thing that could be measured electronically very feasibly. If they did something like that, it would be interesting in that it could be truly objective.

But with our current subjective system, the 3 level designation used right now seems to be plenty for them to apply consistently.

andy007

I think the inserts of Cam and DCAM are enough for now, but I only try to buy those DCAM plus and CAM plus as Tomaska spells out very well on his site.

kyleknap

The grading is inconsistant enough as it is, can you imagine what it would be like if we had more labels to chose from? What's next? Decimal grades?

"I have for sale (1) PCGS MS65.6758443 (DMPL.43352) 1882-CC Morgan Dollar. Availible to the 1st PM @ $XXX"

Kyle

supercoin

Didn't you mean to say:

"I have for sale (1) PCGS MS65.6758443 (DMPL.43352) 1882-CC Morgan Dollar. Availible to the 1st PM @ $XXX.XX"

tradedollarnut

If cameo and ultracameo continue to be promoted and over emphasized (hyped), then absolutely expect more designations. Think of the resubmissions! The CLCT shareholders look like this:

(OK - actually they still look like but they are trying!)

sonofagunk

I want them to rate the "cameo-ness" on a scale of 1-47 so people have something else to complain about

quattrocoins

Apparently, Cam and Deep Cam is already TOO much for them to keep straight (not to mention grades!)!
I just got back a submission of proofs. Some were raw, and some were crack-outs. One was a gorgeous proof Washington that was in a PR67Cam ANACS holder. The obverse is an obvious deep cam that has light blue/purple toning on the mirrored field and kinda reminded me of a Purple Heart Medal. This toning makes the cameo affect look even deeper. I cracked it out months ago, and it came back as a PR67 (no cam). Not satisfied with this result, I went ahead and liberated it fron it's non-cam holder, and sent it in again. Well, this time it got it's cam designation but lost 2 grade points (came back PR65CAM)!
Two others were in NCG PR CAM holders, and came back as no cams!

I'm getting pretty digusted with their inconsistancies and am thinking of pulling out all my registry sets, inculding my #3 proof Washington set!

SOMEBODY needs to WAKE-UP in the grading room!!!

Disgustingly,

Don

I guess blind graders and

braddick

I know the first concern is dozens of different CAM designators. I was only talking about bumping it from two to three. CAMEO. DEEP CAMEO. And, ULTRA DEEP CAMEO. I've seen some Franlkins labeled as DCAM's that truly were amazing and deserved a bump up.

MJCoin

I could go for Ultra Deep Cameo as long as the designation is reserved for coins with Ultimate Frost and Contrast for the date and issue. In other words, The very first strikes off new dies.

jdbcoin

Is CAM and DCAM enough?

YES!

Strat

"Kinda cameo", you got that right, Carl!!! I'd like to see us borrow a computer term, W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G. cameo. Although two cameo designations seem sufficient, I've found when selling, that reality and eye appeal kick in very fast. Perhaps there are pseudo cameos, the ones that don't sell, and half-a s s cameos, the ones that sell, but cheaply, and the ones that dealers can't buy quick enough (the real cameos). I really think there are too many pluses and ultras and heavies and deep, deeps and numerical adjectives to be accurate. The situation is rather like buying cars, the more numbers and letters in the name of the model, the higher the price. I think a good description of a given coin will suffice, although I do find R & I's number system to be helpful (ie 2-2-10).

DHeath

How about "partial cam" for coins that exhibit some cameo on one side or both to distinguish them from shiners, "cameo" for coins that have totally cameo devices that aren't heavy or are lighter in some places, and "dcam" for coins on which none of the devices are reflective. I think that better describes the eye appeal factor and differentiates no cam from partial quite nicely.

shirohniichan

Instead let's drop all grade modifiers and let collectors figure out what they like rather than being told.

I nominate Greg for ANA president.

Why go the way of ACG and come up with cheesy "Ultra-Deep Frosted Cam" and other such BS names? Why are we so stuck on trying to make the art of grading into an exact science (then complaining about how far off the graders were)?

danarchy

isn't BS already a designation?


Dan