<< <i>Am I the only one who thinks the question smacks a bit of elitism? >>
If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year, coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.
There is a school of regarding set-building that says that a collector should just buy the key coins of the set.
For example, almost all of the value of a typical set of Mercury dimes is contained in three or four coins. As a result, a collector would buy just the keys and not the remaining 75 or so coins. (A collector would also save the cost of the album.)
A collector would have that much more money to buy more (and different) coins.
edited to add: this may be a bit different from RYK's advice, as none of the Mercury dimes are exactly rare, but at least you'll be saved the trouble of buying really common coins.
<< <i>There is a school of regarding set-building that says that a collector should just buy the key coins of the set.
For example, almost all of the value of a typical set of Mercury dimes is contained in three or four coins. As a result, a collector would buy just the keys and not the remaining 75 or so coins. (A collector would also save the cost of the album.)
A collector would have that much more money to buy more (and different) coins. >>
That has been explained to me as a "brick-and-mortar" approach. Buy the bricks (the best coins of the set) and let the other guys have the mortar, the fillers.
<<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation.
It's not elitest to buy what you want. It might be, however, if you tell other people that they should collect the same way you do because your way is better than theirs.
<< <i>I have read several blogs of well respected dealers telling their clients basically the same thing—they are better off using their coin budget to buy a small number of scarce coins than a large number of common coins. >>
"Better off" in what sense? What if the collector in question gets more satisfaction from his collection by regularly adding coins to it instead of going months (or years) at a time not buying anything so he can save up for a more substantial purchase? How is he better off buying fewer coins?
<< <i><<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation. >>
I agree, it smacks of elitism to me as well. FWIW, though, when RYK notes "better than average for what they are" that could apply to the humblest of F-12 common Barber dimes (to pick a cheap example.) I would love seeing a whole roll of Barber dimes like that, each a "perfect" example of the type at that grade level -- it would be most unusual and a nice collection. Certainly NOT the type of thing "anyone could buy at any time" -- to put it together would take time and care. It just wouldn't cost a fortune. Such coins could be bought, one at a time, with a $7 scratcher ticket proceeds. But just 'cause you have the $7 to blow on a nonessential, doesn't mean a nice one will be available all the time.
I agree with your assessment. I really only collect nicely toned to wild toned coins and I haven't purchased any new toners in months because I haven't found any examples that are worthy. With beautiful toned coins, you buy them when u see them, which can be rare for certain dates and series.
<< <i><<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation. >>
It is probably appropriate that you disclose your position as a coin dealer as I believe that this has a significant impact on your viewpoint. That is, you may sell a lot of stuff that you would not want in your collection (if you have one) and similarly that I would not want in mine. It could impact your business if people became more selective.
Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. Airplanenut exemplified the point better than I could have stated it.
<< <i>Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. >>
IMO, it's not elitist to collect what you want. It is, however, elitist to tell other people what they should want. Especially if you ("you" in general- not directed at any specific poster) tell other people that what they want is not as desirable as what you think they should want.
"Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. Airplanenut exemplified the point better than I could have stated it."
I am in complete agreement with this point of view. I don't think that the real issue is elitism, it's collecting philosophy. For some, the goal is preserving capital by making fewer, much more selective purchases that hopefully would maintain their values as time marches on. It is for others (like me) also a question of aesthetics. Would I rather have 10 easily obtainable coins or one really cool one, a piece that I would really want to keep? I sold almost all of my coin collection in early 2007 for exactly this reason. Quality beats quantity in the collectibles game.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. >>
IMO, it's not elitist to collect what you want. It is, however, elitist to tell other people what they should want. Especially if you ("you" in general- not directed at any specific poster) tell other people that what they want is not as desirable as what you think they should want. >>
I have not told anyone else what to collect, but only shared a viewpoint that is worthy of consideration for some collecting styles. I certainly do not live by it, but occasionally it stops me from buying something I will regret later. It obviously does not fit all collecting missions--roll searchers, date collectors, US Mint product collectors, bullion and NCLT collectors, etc. may not have any use for it. People can collect whatever makes them happy.
Here's an anecdote from my past that has certainly shaped my collecting experience.
When I was 11 and in love with coins, my father took me to my first coin show. I brought ten dollars with me that I saved from my paper route to buy a large cent. I found a dealer with a case of large cents and one stood out to me. It was an 1818 large cent in F (details) condition that had been recolored. (Of course it stood out, the rest were brown.) Not knowing better and desperate to bring home a large cent, I purchased the coin (below). I brought it home and while I enjoyed owning a large cent and having the oldest coin in my collection, I knew that it did not look right, so I was soon disappointed.
Several months later, my dad took me to another coin show, where I bought a F/VF 1833 large cent with a badly scratched right field. The dealer was happy to take my money, and I was, again, initially excited to have another large cent, but soon realized that the right field was the biggest right field problem since Clemente died and was again unfulfilled.
A little while later, a family friend who worked for a regional specialist in copper coins, who knew I wanted to buy a nice large cent, brought an album of 2x2's to my house with a lot of wonderful coins, the likes of which I had never seen before. He told me to select one, and I would get it at wholesale price. I picked a lovely chocolate brown 1825 in then VF/XF condition that later graded AU at ANACS. I had never seen such a nice large cent, and it cost me $20, the same price as the two problem coins that I purchased on the bourse. I loved that coin and 28 years later sold it for $500. (I was later able to buy two additional coins this way and still have these in my collection, in my 7070.)
What happened to the first two coins? The 1818 I sold on the BST forum as a recolored, circulated coin for $5 to Dennis88 in 2004. I sold the 1833 on ebay for $15 around the same time.
Some take homes from this story that still impress upon me today: 1. Be patient 2. Don't just buy what's out there on that day because the money is burning a hole in your pocket 3. A substantially better purchase may not be significantly much more than you are prepared to spend 4. The average dealer on the typical bourse will sell you just about anything. Don't ever again be the schmuck who just buys "anything". 5. The nicer coin may pay off in the long run, while the crappy coin will always be crappy (sorry if the anti-elites do not appreciate dissing a recolored or badly scratched coin that someone might treasure )
Sometimes, average (but really nice for that average level) is fun, affordable, and somewhat "elite" (without being elitist about it.)
I think when you've found yourself running out of things to buy at the top end (would love to be faced with this myself) maybe you aren't looking hard enough (or maybe you have too narrow a focus on what it is you're wanting) -- which could be fine, it just is what it is. Let's say I won a large lottery, so that money's not really an object (within reason.) So I say I'm interested in gemmy 1793 Large Cents. The pool's kinda limited, but at least there are a couple up for sale soon!
But running out of interesting things to collect isn't a problem I'd ever likely have -- too many cool items out there. Slightly more available, but still pricey, would be things like a nice gem rare-date Standing Liberty (check out the gem 23-S at Harlan J Berk currently, wow!) or any number of other things (a very nice 2-pound roo 1913 stamp from a well-known Australian dealer, MLH is about 3K.) And etc, etc, I could find something "special", and genuinely hard to replace, in about any dealer's inventory I think. Only thing preventing such is cash (the lack of excessive amounts thereof.)
So, I collect happily within my budget, and I like all coins, cheapies to rarities. As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
<< <i>Here's an anecdote from my past that has certainly shaped my collecting experience.
When I was 11 and in love with coins, my father took me to my first coin show. I brought ten dollars with me that I saved from my paper route to buy a large cent. I found a dealer with a case of large cents and one stood out to me. It was an 1818 large cent in F (details) condition that had been recolored. (Of course it stood out, the rest were brown.) Not knowing better and desperate to bring home a large cent, I purchased the coin (below). I brought it home and while I enjoyed owning a large cent and having the oldest coin in my collection, I knew that it did not look right, so I was soon disappointed.
Several months later, my dad took me to another coin show, where I bought a F/VF 1833 large cent with a badly scratched right field. The dealer was happy to take my money, and I was, again, initially excited to have another large cent, but soon realized that the right field was the biggest right field problem since Clemente died and was again unfulfilled.
A little while later, a family friend who worked for a regional specialist in copper coins, who knew I wanted to buy a nice large cent, brought an album of 2x2's to my house with a lot of wonderful coins, the likes of which I had never seen before. He told me to select one, and I would get it at wholesale price. I picked a lovely chocolate brown 1825 in then VF/XF condition that later graded AU at ANACS. I had never seen such a nice large cent, and it cost me $20, the same price as the two problem coins that I purchased on the bourse. I loved that coin and 28 years later sold it for $500. (I was later able to buy two additional coins this way and still have these in my collection, in my 7070.)
What happened to the first two coins? The 1818 I sold on the BST forum as a recolored, circulated coin for $5 to Dennis88 in 2004. I sold the 1833 on ebay for $15 around the same time.
Some take homes from this story that still impress upon me today: 1. Be patient 2. Don't just buy what's out there on that day because the money is burning a hole in your pocket 3. A substantially better purchase may not be significantly much more than you are prepared to spend 4. The average dealer on the typical bourse will sell you just about anything. Don't ever again be the schmuck who just buys "anything". 5. The nicer coin may pay off in the long run, while the crappy coin will always be crappy (sorry if the anti-elites do not appreciate dissing a recolored or badly scratched coin that someone might treasure )
>>
I think the lessons you learned are very valuable, indeed! The only annoying thing that sometimes happens is some will look down on your nice AU piece (regardless of the profit you realized on it) and sneer at what it is not (an even higher quality coin.) I find this most objectionable, myself. FWIW, I too avoid problem coins as a rule, but I still keep the few clunkers I've bought over the years as reminders and teaching tools. We all start from a level of "newbie" and unless we're EXTREMELY lucky, we all have to suffer the indignity of a "mistake purchase" at some point!
I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
You'd be surprised how hard it is. Oh, sure - if people are impressed by the plastic, it's a whole lot easier....
Well, I guess "hard" is a term I needed to define better -- in your case TDN, you have done so (built world-class collections) with a combination of the needed funds (but not limitless) and the expert collector's eye, and some good old dealer contacts too, I'd wager... I guess "hard" in the sense of "it can't happen overnight, or even over 5 or 10 or 20 years (depending on the goal)" -- that I would agree with, sometimes you have to be very patient, and wait out/buy out very strong hands! I guess I wouldn't find it "hard" though, in the sense of I'd find it a very enjoyable journey.
That said, I've always enjoyed collecting at a more modest level, and still do -- else I wouldn't bother with it!
As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite.
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement.
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
When I think elite collector, I think of collectors such as Bass, Pittman, Reiver.
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
When I think elite collector, I think of collectors such as Bass, Pittman, Reiver. >>
I think of Naftzger, Pogue and McGuigan. Those who won't rest til they have the best. Maybe Bass, not Pittman. Dunno about Reiver.
Pogue has a dipped and counterstamped $1804. Just sayin.
I said this because it is a bit contradictory to your above statement about
<< <i>The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement. >>
. Obviously anyone who has 7 figure coins in their collection can pretty much say they are elite.
Why Naftzger? -- Over Holmes, or Husack? It is not my intention to go anywhere else on that.
I think that we each defining this differently. I read elite collector, I think you read elite collector. I chose mine because they all gave back to the hobby. Bass because of his dedication to die varieties. He had the means where he could have purchased anything. What his collection lacked was as telling to me as what it contained. As collectors, we have him to thank for the study of die varieties on early gold. Reiver authored 5 books. He discovered the 1797 NC-7. Pittman because he was President of ANA and Canadian Numismatic Associations, honorary president of Sociedad Numismatica de Mexico and built a $30 million dollar collection working as an engineer for Kodak.
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement. >>
William H. Sheldon had that drive; he just didn't do it legally.
Pogue has a dipped and counterstamped $1804. Just sayin.
I said this because it is a bit contradictory to your above statement about
<< <i>The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement. >>
. Obviously anyone who has 7 figure coins in their collection can pretty much say they are elite.
Why Naftzger? -- Over Holmes, or Husack? It is not my intention to go anywhere else on that.
I think that we each defining this differently. I read elite collector, I think you read elite collector. I chose mine because they all gave back to the hobby. Bass because of his dedication to die varieties. He had the means where he could have purchased anything. What his collection lacked was as telling to me as what it contained. As collectors, we have him to thank for the study of die varieties on early gold. Reiver authored 5 books. He discovered the 1797 NC-7. Pittman because he was President of ANA and Canadian Numismatic Associations, honorary president of Sociedad Numismatica de Mexico and built a $30 million dollar collection working as an engineer for Kodak. >>
Yes, of course - in that nuance of elite. My listwas more geared toward the subject at hand of elitism.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i><<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation. >>
It is probably appropriate that you disclose your position as a coin dealer as I believe that this has a significant impact on your viewpoint. That is, you may sell a lot of stuff that you would not want in your collection (if you have one) and similarly that I would not want in mine. It could impact your business if people became more selective.
Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. Airplanenut exemplified the point better than I could have stated it. >>
My remarks have nothing to do with the fact that I am a dealer, and if I were easily offended I could easily construe the remarks above, i.e., ("It could impact your business if people became more selective"), as insinuating that I am merely protecting my ability to sell "dreck" to the unknowing.
There is nothing wrong with striving for something nicer if that's what you want to do- and no one to my knowledge has suggested that anyone "just settle". The reality however is that not everyone necessarily wants to continually upgrade just because they can.
The question in the title is "If you can buy a coin whenever you want, why buy it at all?" As stated before, this infers that just because one can afford something nicer, that a lesser piece then somehow is not worth owning. There are many people who certainly can afford much nicer examples but are going for a collection that is consistent at a certain grade level. For example there are Barber Quarter collectors who prefer nice for the grade solid F to VF pieces even though they could easily afford higher end uncirculated pieces. Though I don't share their specific interest, I don't ask "why bother to buy these at all when you can afford higher grade pieces?" To each his own imo. That's the cool thing about this hobby; there are no rules as to how one collects.
Comments
<< <i>Am I the only one who thinks the question smacks a bit of elitism? >>
If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year, coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.
For example, almost all of the value of a typical set of Mercury dimes is contained in three or four coins. As a result, a collector would buy just the keys and not the remaining 75 or so coins. (A collector would also save the cost of the album.)
A collector would have that much more money to buy more (and different) coins.
edited to add: this may be a bit different from RYK's advice, as none of the Mercury dimes are exactly rare, but at least you'll be saved the trouble of buying really common coins.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>There is a school of regarding set-building that says that a collector should just buy the key coins of the set.
For example, almost all of the value of a typical set of Mercury dimes is contained in three or four coins. As a result, a collector would buy just the keys and not the remaining 75 or so coins. (A collector would also save the cost of the album.)
A collector would have that much more money to buy more (and different) coins. >>
That has been explained to me as a "brick-and-mortar" approach. Buy the bricks (the best coins of the set) and let the other guys have the mortar, the fillers.
<<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I have read several blogs of well respected dealers telling their clients basically the same thing—they are better off using their coin budget to buy a small number of scarce coins than a large number of common coins. >>
"Better off" in what sense? What if the collector in question gets more satisfaction from his collection by regularly adding coins to it instead of going months (or years) at a time not buying anything so he can save up for a more substantial purchase? How is he better off buying fewer coins?
<< <i><<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation. >>
I agree, it smacks of elitism to me as well. FWIW, though, when RYK notes "better than average for what they are" that could apply to the humblest of F-12 common Barber dimes (to pick a cheap example.) I would love seeing a whole roll of Barber dimes like that, each a "perfect" example of the type at that grade level -- it would be most unusual and a nice collection. Certainly NOT the type of thing "anyone could buy at any time" -- to put it together would take time and care. It just wouldn't cost a fortune. Such coins could be bought, one at a time, with a $7 scratcher ticket proceeds. But just 'cause you have the $7 to blow on a nonessential, doesn't mean a nice one will be available all the time.
<< <i><<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation. >>
It is probably appropriate that you disclose your position as a coin dealer as I believe that this has a significant impact on your viewpoint. That is, you may sell a lot of stuff that you would not want in your collection (if you have one) and similarly that I would not want in mine. It could impact your business if people became more selective.
Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. Airplanenut exemplified the point better than I could have stated it.
<< <i>Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. >>
IMO, it's not elitist to collect what you want. It is, however, elitist to tell other people what they should want. Especially if you ("you" in general- not directed at any specific poster) tell other people that what they want is not as desirable as what you think they should want.
I am in complete agreement with this point of view. I don't think that the real issue is elitism, it's collecting philosophy. For some, the goal is preserving capital by making fewer, much more selective purchases that hopefully would maintain their values as time marches on. It is for others (like me) also a question of aesthetics. Would I rather have 10 easily obtainable coins or one really cool one, a piece that I would really want to keep? I sold almost all of my coin collection in early 2007 for exactly this reason. Quality beats quantity in the collectibles game.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. >>
IMO, it's not elitist to collect what you want. It is, however, elitist to tell other people what they should want. Especially if you ("you" in general- not directed at any specific poster) tell other people that what they want is not as desirable as what you think they should want. >>
I have not told anyone else what to collect, but only shared a viewpoint that is worthy of consideration for some collecting styles. I certainly do not live by it, but occasionally it stops me from buying something I will regret later. It obviously does not fit all collecting missions--roll searchers, date collectors, US Mint product collectors, bullion and NCLT collectors, etc. may not have any use for it. People can collect whatever makes them happy.
<< <i>Can't we all just get along? Rodney King >>
I get along with everyone, Rodney.
<< <i>
<< <i>Can't we all just get along? Rodney King >>
I get along with everyone, Rodney.
That's elitist!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Can't we all just get along? Rodney King >>
I get along with everyone, Rodney.
That's elitist!
Oy! You got a chip on your shoulder, too?
<< <i>Without elitism, we'd all just be...average. >>
Except for the ones that aren't!
<< <i>I have not told anyone else what to collect, but only shared a viewpoint that is worthy of consideration for some collecting styles. >>
Which is why I included this:
("you" in general- not directed at any specific poster)
in my last comment.
You *did* ask for a discussion in your first post, right?
When I was 11 and in love with coins, my father took me to my first coin show. I brought ten dollars with me that I saved from my paper route to buy a large cent. I found a dealer with a case of large cents and one stood out to me. It was an 1818 large cent in F (details) condition that had been recolored. (Of course it stood out, the rest were brown.) Not knowing better and desperate to bring home a large cent, I purchased the coin (below). I brought it home and while I enjoyed owning a large cent and having the oldest coin in my collection, I knew that it did not look right, so I was soon disappointed.
Several months later, my dad took me to another coin show, where I bought a F/VF 1833 large cent with a badly scratched right field. The dealer was happy to take my money, and I was, again, initially excited to have another large cent, but soon realized that the right field was the biggest right field problem since Clemente died and was again unfulfilled.
A little while later, a family friend who worked for a regional specialist in copper coins, who knew I wanted to buy a nice large cent, brought an album of 2x2's to my house with a lot of wonderful coins, the likes of which I had never seen before. He told me to select one, and I would get it at wholesale price. I picked a lovely chocolate brown 1825 in then VF/XF condition that later graded AU at ANACS. I had never seen such a nice large cent, and it cost me $20, the same price as the two problem coins that I purchased on the bourse. I loved that coin and 28 years later sold it for $500. (I was later able to buy two additional coins this way and still have these in my collection, in my 7070.)
What happened to the first two coins? The 1818 I sold on the BST forum as a recolored, circulated coin for $5 to Dennis88 in 2004. I sold the 1833 on ebay for $15 around the same time.
Some take homes from this story that still impress upon me today:
1. Be patient
2. Don't just buy what's out there on that day because the money is burning a hole in your pocket
3. A substantially better purchase may not be significantly much more than you are prepared to spend
4. The average dealer on the typical bourse will sell you just about anything. Don't ever again be the schmuck who just buys "anything".
5. The nicer coin may pay off in the long run, while the crappy coin will always be crappy (sorry if the anti-elites do not appreciate dissing a recolored or badly scratched coin that someone might treasure
I think when you've found yourself running out of things to buy at the top end (would love to be faced with this myself) maybe you aren't looking hard enough (or maybe you have too narrow a focus on what it is you're wanting) -- which could be fine, it just is what it is. Let's say I won a large lottery, so that money's not really an object (within reason.) So I say I'm interested in gemmy 1793 Large Cents. The pool's kinda limited, but at least there are a couple up for sale soon!
But running out of interesting things to collect isn't a problem I'd ever likely have -- too many cool items out there. Slightly more available, but still pricey, would be things like a nice gem rare-date Standing Liberty (check out the gem 23-S at Harlan J Berk currently, wow!) or any number of other things (a very nice 2-pound roo 1913 stamp from a well-known Australian dealer, MLH is about 3K.) And etc, etc, I could find something "special", and genuinely hard to replace, in about any dealer's inventory I think. Only thing preventing such is cash (the lack of excessive amounts thereof.)
So, I collect happily within my budget, and I like all coins, cheapies to rarities. As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
<< <i>Here's an anecdote from my past that has certainly shaped my collecting experience.
When I was 11 and in love with coins, my father took me to my first coin show. I brought ten dollars with me that I saved from my paper route to buy a large cent. I found a dealer with a case of large cents and one stood out to me. It was an 1818 large cent in F (details) condition that had been recolored. (Of course it stood out, the rest were brown.) Not knowing better and desperate to bring home a large cent, I purchased the coin (below). I brought it home and while I enjoyed owning a large cent and having the oldest coin in my collection, I knew that it did not look right, so I was soon disappointed.
Several months later, my dad took me to another coin show, where I bought a F/VF 1833 large cent with a badly scratched right field. The dealer was happy to take my money, and I was, again, initially excited to have another large cent, but soon realized that the right field was the biggest right field problem since Clemente died and was again unfulfilled.
A little while later, a family friend who worked for a regional specialist in copper coins, who knew I wanted to buy a nice large cent, brought an album of 2x2's to my house with a lot of wonderful coins, the likes of which I had never seen before. He told me to select one, and I would get it at wholesale price. I picked a lovely chocolate brown 1825 in then VF/XF condition that later graded AU at ANACS. I had never seen such a nice large cent, and it cost me $20, the same price as the two problem coins that I purchased on the bourse. I loved that coin and 28 years later sold it for $500. (I was later able to buy two additional coins this way and still have these in my collection, in my 7070.)
What happened to the first two coins? The 1818 I sold on the BST forum as a recolored, circulated coin for $5 to Dennis88 in 2004. I sold the 1833 on ebay for $15 around the same time.
Some take homes from this story that still impress upon me today:
1. Be patient
2. Don't just buy what's out there on that day because the money is burning a hole in your pocket
3. A substantially better purchase may not be significantly much more than you are prepared to spend
4. The average dealer on the typical bourse will sell you just about anything. Don't ever again be the schmuck who just buys "anything".
5. The nicer coin may pay off in the long run, while the crappy coin will always be crappy (sorry if the anti-elites do not appreciate dissing a recolored or badly scratched coin that someone might treasure
I think the lessons you learned are very valuable, indeed! The only annoying thing that sometimes happens is some will look down on your nice AU piece (regardless of the profit you realized on it) and sneer at what it is not (an even higher quality coin.) I find this most objectionable, myself.
You'd be surprised how hard it is. Oh, sure - if people are impressed by the plastic, it's a whole lot easier....
That said, I've always enjoyed collecting at a more modest level, and still do -- else I wouldn't bother with it!
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite.
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement.
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
When I think elite collector, I think of collectors such as Bass, Pittman, Reiver.
<< <i>
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
When I think elite collector, I think of collectors such as Bass, Pittman, Reiver. >>
I think of Naftzger, Pogue and McGuigan. Those who won't rest til they have the best. Maybe Bass, not Pittman. Dunno about Reiver.
Pogue has a dipped and counterstamped $1804. Just sayin.
I said this because it is a bit contradictory to your above statement about
<< <i>The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement. >>
. Obviously anyone who has 7 figure coins in their collection can pretty much say they are elite.
Why Naftzger? -- Over Holmes, or Husack? It is not my intention to go anywhere else on that.
I think that we each defining this differently. I read elite collector, I think you read elite collector. I chose mine because they all gave back to the hobby. Bass because of his dedication to die varieties. He had the means where he could have purchased anything. What his collection lacked was as telling to me as what it contained. As collectors, we have him to thank for the study of die varieties on early gold. Reiver authored 5 books. He discovered the 1797 NC-7. Pittman because he was President of ANA and Canadian Numismatic Associations, honorary president of Sociedad Numismatica de Mexico and built a $30 million dollar collection working as an engineer for Kodak.
<< <i>
<< <i>As far as being an "elite" coin collector, I really don't feel it's that difficult as it's made out to be. I'd wager almost anyone on the boards here could put together an above-average to world-class superlative collection of (fill in the blank), if they found themselves with the funds to do so.
When I think of "elite collectors", the amount of money they spent is not the first thing that comes to mind and is not a criteria for being elite. >>
The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement. >>
William H. Sheldon had that drive; he just didn't do it legally.
<< <i>Edit for clarification and some expansion.
Pogue has a dipped and counterstamped $1804. Just sayin.
I said this because it is a bit contradictory to your above statement about
<< <i>The inate drive to own the best they can possibly own is a core requirement. >>
. Obviously anyone who has 7 figure coins in their collection can pretty much say they are elite.
Why Naftzger? -- Over Holmes, or Husack? It is not my intention to go anywhere else on that.
I think that we each defining this differently. I read elite collector, I think you read elite collector. I chose mine because they all gave back to the hobby. Bass because of his dedication to die varieties. He had the means where he could have purchased anything. What his collection lacked was as telling to me as what it contained. As collectors, we have him to thank for the study of die varieties on early gold. Reiver authored 5 books. He discovered the 1797 NC-7. Pittman because he was President of ANA and Canadian Numismatic Associations, honorary president of Sociedad Numismatica de Mexico and built a $30 million dollar collection working as an engineer for Kodak. >>
Yes, of course - in that nuance of elite. My listwas more geared toward the subject at hand of elitism.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i><<If it is considered elitism to want to only add coins that I find interesting to my collection, coins that are better than average for what they are, have a historically interesting footnote or tangible connection to our storied past, coins that have an exceptional or unusual but original appearance for the grade, coins that cannot be purchased by the barrel whenever my I win $7 with a "scratcher" lottery ticket, coins that do not show up in every single dealer case on every single bourse on every single weekend of the year... coins that bring a smile to my face and a spark to the eyes of those I share them with...if that is what goes down as elitism, then, yes sir, call me an elitist.>>
There are people who get the equivalent smile on their face and spark to their eyes regardless of value and/or their ability to "buy it whenever (they) want". To marginalize such coins and by extension, the people who collect them seems a bit beneath someone of your intellect and reputation. >>
It is probably appropriate that you disclose your position as a coin dealer as I believe that this has a significant impact on your viewpoint. That is, you may sell a lot of stuff that you would not want in your collection (if you have one) and similarly that I would not want in mine. It could impact your business if people became more selective.
Once again, if it is elitist to strive for what is better and not settle for what is just out there, like airplanenut with his recent Walker proof half purchase, yes, I am most certainly elitist. Airplanenut exemplified the point better than I could have stated it. >>
My remarks have nothing to do with the fact that I am a dealer, and if I were easily offended I could easily construe the remarks above, i.e., ("It could impact your business if people became more selective"), as insinuating that I am merely protecting my ability to sell "dreck" to the unknowing.
There is nothing wrong with striving for something nicer if that's what you want to do- and no one to my knowledge has suggested that anyone "just settle". The reality however is that not everyone necessarily wants to continually upgrade just because they can.
The question in the title is "If you can buy a coin whenever you want, why buy it at all?" As stated before, this infers that just because one can afford something nicer, that a lesser piece then somehow is not worth owning. There are many people who certainly can afford much nicer examples but are going for a collection that is consistent at a certain grade level. For example there are Barber Quarter collectors who prefer nice for the grade solid F to VF pieces even though they could easily afford higher end uncirculated pieces. Though I don't share their specific interest, I don't ask "why bother to buy these at all when you can afford higher grade pieces?" To each his own imo. That's the cool thing about this hobby; there are no rules as to how one collects.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012