Options
Has a major grading service ever graded and slabbed a counterfeit coin?
PerryHall
Posts: 46,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm talking about an actual example where the counterfeit was discovered in a slab and the major grading service bought the coin back under their guarantee and took the coin off the market. Anyone know if this has ever happened and what specific coin was involved?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
0
Comments
<< <i>I doubt PCI is considered a major grading service, now defunct, but I have heard dealers speak about some of their grading being accurate. I bought an MS64 $20 Liberty in a PCI holder from a major precious metals dealer that offered it on their website. I submitted it to NGC which declared it a fake. I also brought it to a major coin dealer that was willing to buy it as an MS63. I doubt PCGS, NGC or ANACS can be fooled, they may have been at some point in their history. >>
Did you tell this dealer that NGC rejected it as a fake? As far as fooling a major grading service, I don't doubt that it has happened and that there are a few super good fakes in major grading service slabs. I would be naive to think otherwise.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What about the micro o Morgans? >>
Great example. PCGS has been buying them back under their guarantee but many collectors want to keep them in their PCGS slabs and they bring good money as such.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>What about the micro o Morgans? >>
Great example. PCGS has been buying them back under their guarantee but many collectors want to keep them in their PCGS slabs and they bring good money as such. >>
Are those counterfeit or simply altered?
Pfffffffft. Severe? Now, the British knew about severe penalties for counterfeiting their coins or currency in the colonies. In the book "Counterfeiting in Colonial America", by Kenneth Scott; Oxford University Press, New York; 1957, it quotes English law regarding the penalty for counterfeiting as follows:
"Forging the coin of the realm in England was high treason and the penalty was that the offender be drawn to the gallows and not be carried or allowed to walk, although as a rule a sledge or hurdle might be used to preserve the criminal from the extreme torment of being dragged on the ground or pavement; that he be hanged by the neck and then cut down alive; that his entrails be taken out and burned while he was yet alive; that his head be cut off and his body be divided into four parts, and that his head and quarters be at the king's disposal."
Any questions?
Sounds a bit more severe than the country Club Fed treatment that counterfeiters are subjected to today.
<< <i>"Here is the law against counterfeiting. It is a criminal offense so the penalties can be quite severe"
Pfffffffft. Severe? Now, the British knew about severe penalties for counterfeiting their coins or currency in the colonies. In the book "Counterfeiting in Colonial America", by Kenneth Scott; Oxford University Press, New York; 1957, it quotes English law regarding the penalty for counterfeiting as follows:
"Forging the coin of the realm in England was high treason and the penalty was that the offender be drawn to the gallows and not be carried or allowed to walk, although as a rule a sledge or hurdle might be used to preserve the criminal from the extreme torment of being dragged on the ground or pavement; that he be hanged by the neck and then cut down alive; that his entrails be taken out and burned while he was yet alive; that his head be cut off and his body be divided into four parts, and that his head and quarters be at the king's disposal."
Any questions?
Sounds a bit more severe than the country Club Fed treatment that counterfeiters are subjected to today. >>
I don't think there are any documented cases of a counterfeiter being executed in this country for that crime.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What about the micro o Morgans? >>
Great example. PCGS has been buying them back under their guarantee but many collectors want to keep them in their PCGS slabs and they bring good money as such. >>
Are those counterfeit or simply altered? >>
They were struck counterfeits.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What about the micro o Morgans? >>
Great example. PCGS has been buying them back under their guarantee but many collectors want to keep them in their PCGS slabs and they bring good money as such. >>
Are those counterfeit or simply altered? >>
They are counterfeit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>I remembering reading about a 1916-D dime in a lower tier slab where the mintmark came off the coin and was rattling around inside the slab (the D was glued to a real 1916 coin). This slabbing company was owned by a coin dealer that also graded and slabbed coins (usually overgraded and problems were usually not shown on the slab label). When the owner of this added mintmark coin approached this dealer at a show, the dealer took the slab and cracked the coin out and handed the raw 1916 dime back to the owner saying that he didn't guarantee the authenticity of the coin. This dealer is still in business and has a history of suing anyone that criticises him so I'm not going to mention his name but most dealers and collectors who have been around for awhile certainly know who he is. This is why you should stick with the top tier legitimate grading companies like NGC and PCGS. >>
Can you PM those specifics?
You may be correct, although I have never researched that point. That quote regarding the penalties for counterfeiting was for English law, and the law in the colonies may well have been different. If you read Kenneth Scott's book, you will learn that one of the reasons for the small rate of conviction was because accused counterfeiters were tried by a jury of their peers, and since counterfeiting was so widespread, most prospective jurors were reluctant to bring a guilty verdict because they felt "There, but for the grace of God, go I".
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>crypto, the coin is a fake that was struck twice and determined to be genuine by PCGS? Strange indeed... >>
Real coin, re-struck with fake dies.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>crypto, the coin is a fake that was struck twice and determined to be genuine by PCGS? Strange indeed... >>
Real coin, re-struck with fake dies.
Russ, NCNE >>
Correct, it was a UNC detail Chopped coin that was holdered as such in an old blue series holder when the dealer/owner saw the secondary detail and cracked it out to look at it. I am not sure how the after strikings didn't affect the mint frost or primary detail and didn't obscure the Chop marks but I am not a strike dynamics expert.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>crypto, the coin is a fake that was struck twice and determined to be genuine by PCGS? Strange indeed... >>
Real coin, re-struck with fake dies.
Russ, NCNE >>
Correct, it was a UNC detail Chopped coin that was holdered as such in an old blue series holder when the dealer/owner saw the secondary detail and cracked it out to look at it. I am not sure how the after strikings didn't affect the mint frost or primary detail and didn't obscure the Chop marks but I am not a strike dynamics expert. >>
Wow very interesting. Thanks.
<< <i>I have a friend with a counterfeit trade $ in a real PCGS slab >>
USMoneylover
Could you possibly get pics of this coin? I am sure a lot of people here would like to see a well made (which I am sure that it is or else it would not have made it into a slab) trade dollar counterfeit in a slab. This could be a great educational tool for a thread.
Thanks, Bob
<< <i>Omega. PCGS.
Russ, NCNE >>
The Omega-man counterfeits were well documented before PCGS started operations so it's unlikely they ever slabbed one unless they let one slip by.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
i recall something in a pcgs mass email (the ones we receive monthly or so) about the millions they've bought back because of the counterfeits that slipped through, many being extremely difficult to detect. from my perception, they don't hide it nor publicize it too much. i think i also remember reading they have a picture frame with some of the highest dollar buy-backs they have had and it may be into the seven-figure range.
personally, i have more respect for those that share things like this that those that try to sweep em under the rug. we all make mistakes and much more can be learned and even some fun to be had when we are honest to ourselves and others. if only we find the courage.
.
<< <i>I would say probably even medical doctors make mistakes so why not a coin grader. >>
Grading and authenticating are two different tasks although both are usually performed by the same person.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>i think i also remember reading they have a picture frame with some of the highest dollar buy-backs they have had and it may be into the seven-figure range. >>
I think these are coins that turned within the holders including a very high Red Lincoln cent that developed a fingerprint after it was slabbed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Is that 1804 cent an altered date? >>
seems familiar. i think there has been a thread about this coin within the past year, maybe not even that long ago. just recall something about a counterfeit in a holder on some well-known dealer's site and this particular coin is ringin' some bells
.
Insofar as a major TPG, I seem to recall, MANY YEARS AGO, a superb 1923-S Standing Liberty Quarter that was bought back by that TPG under the guaranty... I do not recall however, whether the coin was a fake or altered with an added mintmark....
<< <i>.
i recall something in a pcgs mass email (the ones we receive monthly or so) about the millions they've bought back because of the counterfeits that slipped through, many being extremely difficult to detect. from my perception, they don't hide it nor publicize it too much. i think i also remember reading they have a picture frame with some of the highest dollar buy-backs they have had and it may be into the seven-figure range.
personally, i have more respect for those that share things like this that those that try to sweep em under the rug. we all make mistakes and much more can be learned and even some fun to be had when we are honest to ourselves and others. if only we find the courage.
. >>
I agree.
PCGS isn't perfect.
I applaud them for their openness in this matter.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Is that 1804 cent an altered date? >>
Yes. Its fake status was learned after cracking the slab to put the coin in an album. DLRC bought it back and NGC saw the thread here and retrieved it from DLRC.
Lance.
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>"Did you tell this dealer that NGC rejected it as a fake? As far as fooling a major grading service, I don't doubt that it has happened and that there are a few super good fakes in major grading service slabs. I would be naive to think otherwise."
The dealer offered under MS63 Bluesheet. When it arrived I got his offer then sent the slab to NGC which rejected it as a fake; I think it was 3 years ago, now you would have to crack the coin out to get it "graded" by NGC so all bets would be off. The national company when informed of their mistake was willing to make good on a refund as I provided them full proof of NGC's judgment of the slabbed coin. >>
So to be clear PCI was willing to refund you at the time? Thanks
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
Those particular counterfeits were very likely made from discarded mint dies.
I see them up on Ebay every once in a while and sellers think they are real...
miss stuff, that is the reason for their buyback guarantees. Given the huge number of coins
slabbed by the majors, I would guess that hundreds of fakes have been slabbed over the
years, not including the Micro O Morgan dollars.
<< <i>The simple answer is -- Yes, they all have. Graders are human, humans make mistakes and
miss stuff, that is the reason for their buyback guarantees. Given the huge number of coins
slabbed by the majors, I would guess that hundreds of fakes have been slabbed over the
years, not including the Micro O Morgan dollars. >>
Hundreds? I would think it would be quite a bit less than that. I don't think the TPG miss them very often.
Edit: At least not by PCGS or NGC. Maybe some of the low end graders that you don't hear of anymore too often.