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Bottlegate 2012 in Atlanta tonight!

jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Such a BS infield fly rule call...

Comments

  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    good thing they called off the steak knife giveaway.
  • MattyCMattyC Posts: 1,335 ✭✭
    Garbage call. Pure garbage.

    Go O's tonight knock out those dangerous Rangers.
  • dizzyfoxxdizzyfoxx Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭
    I honestly felt bad for the left field line umpire. During all the melee, he really looked like he KNEW that he made a very bad call.
    image...There's always time for coin collecting. image
  • HankAintHankAint Posts: 116
    I think I started 'The Chop'. It's been played now so much though that anyone that actually still does 'The Chop' needs to seek help. Atlanta should have brought in something new this year for The Chipper sendoff. At least something now that isn't just sooo annoying to anyone but an Atlanta fan. I hate that chop myself.

    Go Rangers tonight !
  • bigred1bigred1 Posts: 667
    Terrible call, that will be forever remembered as the infield fly rule game instead of the first wild card game, fans were bad, bad call was worse.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Couldn't have happened to a nicer group of fans..


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  • PiggsPiggs Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭✭
    They should have a chalk line on every field marking the maximum distance a ball can go before it's out of range to be called a infield fly. If it's not caught and lands beyond the line it's a hit or error and the hitter is safe. That ball tonight traveled too far to call the hitter out. JMO. Doug
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>At least something now that isn't just sooo annoying to anyone but an Atlanta fan. I hate that chop myself. >>



    I think the chop is awesome, as well as the Braves "rally music" they play.. as long as it's not fueling an anti-Giants rally.


    When I was a kid watching the 1991 WS, I rooted for the Braves and made my own tomahawk that I'd do the chop with while sitting in my living room in California. image It helped too, they took all 3 games in Atlanta. image
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  • MattyCMattyC Posts: 1,335 ✭✭
    If you have to run that far to catch the ball, it is not an "ordinary effort." Add to that fact that the ump did not signal promptly as the rule says is required. The cherry on top is that the rule is designed to protect the offense, and its application here hurt the offense. Just a debacle, and I have no rooting interest in the game. Just sucked to witness such incompetence.
  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭
    I rarely am so upset with baseball, that I feel that I may never watch again, but that I how feel right now. That call was not just bad. It was awful in epic proportions. The Cardinals Shortstop and LF obviously were confused and trying to call each other off. The ball was on the ground when the leftfield umpire made his disastrous call. No Cardinal player was "planted" under the ball....they were both sprinting.

    Umpire Sam Holbrook should never step foot within Georgia again. His name will not be forgotten. If he is part of a crew next year calling a Braves game, more items will be thrown at him.

    Onto college football.

    Cardinals fans- I realize this isn't your team's fault. Good luck going forward, but all of your wins from this point forward are tainted.
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  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It was unquestionably a horrible call.

    Anyone (and so far in this post there's no one) who thinks it was a good call just does not know the game of baseball.
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  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Too many chefs spoil the soup. Too many umps screw up the call.
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  • ShootyBabittShootyBabitt Posts: 970 ✭


    << <i>Umpire Sam Holbrook should never step foot within Georgia again. His name will not be forgotten. If he is part of a crew next year calling a Braves game, more items will be thrown at him. >>



    Jim Joyce was forgiven in Detroit; I'm sure the same will happen for Holbrook. Granted, there were no playoff implications but it cannot be said that Atlanta would have won that game if the call wasn't blown. There could be no "what ifs" with Joyce's call; it took away a perfect game.
  • PowderedH2OPowderedH2O Posts: 2,443 ✭✭
    McAdams is correct. Atlanta fans will throw things at him, because they are the class of sports. They never win anything, so they must take out their aggression on something else.
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  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭


    << <i>McAdams is correct. Atlanta fans will throw things at him, because they are the class of sports. They never win anything, so they must take out their aggression on something else. >>



    Not exactly. Its not like Philadephia where Eagles fans throw things on the field to dispute holding calls. This is the first time things have been thrown onto the field by Braves fans. It was a combination of things. Playoff game was a little bit of it. Chipper's last game was a little bit of it. The sheer atrocity of the call had a lot to do with it.
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  • MCMLVToppsMCMLVTopps Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seems to me that everyone is overlooking a key event in this game that led to the Braves loss. How about the tailor made double play that Chipper threw into right field? Prior to that, the Braves were up 2-0...after that, the Cards were on their way, scoring 3 and never looked back. The 8th inning was clearly a disaster with a horrible call by the umpire...however, the score at that point was 6-3. The Braves fans should be ashamed of themselves for acting like a bunch of European soccer fans gone mad dog crazy. A lot of people could have been seriously hurt with all the stuff flying around. Bush-league at best.

    12 LOBs and 3 errors, does not make a championship team when the chips are down...pun intended.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭
    Harold Reynolds says it was a good call. link

    I agree. You guys have a problem with the RULE, not with the call. Should the rule be tweaked? Probably, because a ball hit 225' from home plate cannot be easily turned into a double play by letting the ball drop.
  • yankeesmanyankeesman Posts: 977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My boys and I were at the Ted last night for the game. 12 men left on base and three errors will lose you alot of ball games. With that said, that infield fly call has to be one of THE MOST horrific calls I've ever seen at any level of baseball. The infield fly rule is in place to prevent an infielder from intentionally dropping the ball in order to turn a double play. NO WAY was that the case on that ball and no way was "ordinary effort" being applied in an infielder travelling out to what should have been the left fielder's ball anyway. As bad as the call was, I really wish the umpiring crew and Joe Torre would have just admitted after the game, "Yep. We blew it. Sorry." It would have been a much easier pill to swallow. It's hard to watch professional umpires cover for each other on such a blatant blown call.

    Also, in watching the replay, the ball had almost hit the ground when the umpire made the call. Just brutal all the way around.

    Again, the Braves stunk up the joint last night and didn't help themselves at all but it would just be nice ONE TIME (Jim Joyce excluded) for an umpire to admit he was wrong and man up and accept responsibility. These guys have been put in an ivory tower and deemed all powerful.

    Finally, I don't think you'll be able to purchase bottled drinks at the Ted anymore with lids on them (sadly, I thought that distinction was only placed with the NFL - at least the Falcons).
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  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭


    << <i>Seems to me that everyone is overlooking a key event in this game that led to the Braves loss. How about the tailor made double play that Chipper threw into right field? >>



    yyyyyup. Medlen was shaken by that. when your HOF 3rd sack throws a 5-4-3 into right field, your confidence dwindles. his locations sucked after the error, and haven't we all seen the shining stars go dull in the playoffs?

    it's the best place to choke.

    don't forget Simmons running out of the baseline on his MANAGER'S bunt call. HUH?

    if the Braves played it smarter early, the 8th inning never happens.
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,097 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Cardinals fans- I realize this isn't your team's fault. Good luck going forward, but all of your wins from this point forward are tainted. >>



    You do have a legitimate gripe about the call. I understand that. However, I disagree with that last statement wholeheartedly. I would first blame the Braves defensive incompetence.

    There is one thing that is kind of going unnoticed that led to the fans terrible reaction - there was a call early in the game that cost the Braves a couple of runs and the call was absolutely right. I think the fans were still upset about the Simmons bunt where the ball was thrown off of his helmet and the umpire called him out for being out of the baseline. The call was correct, but the fans were clearly upset at that call. I think it carried over a little bit.

    Oh, and by the way... I rewound it and reviewed it several times... in his last at bat, Chipper was out! image

    Shane

  • JJacksJJacks Posts: 759 ✭

    I also feel this was a terrible call. First of all for those saying the call was right based on the rule, the call has to be made "Immediately" which it most certainly was not. I do feel the rule should be more specific in details about how far out it can be, etc.

    I have watched god knows how many baseball games and never seen the infield fly rule called anywhere near that far out.

    This umpire seems like he all of the sudden felt like he wanted to call this and made a last second judgement to do so.

    JJacks
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  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,315 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I also feel this was a terrible call. First of all for those saying the call was right based on the rule, the call has to be made "Immediately" which it most certainly was not. I do feel the rule should be more specific in details about how far out it can be, etc.

    I have watched god knows how many baseball games and never seen the infield fly rule called anywhere near that far out.

    This umpire seems like he all of the sudden felt like he wanted to call this and made a last second judgement to do so.

    JJacks >>



    I totally agree.

    I realize by the true definition of the 'rule' you could argue this was a correct call.

    However, I too must say I have never seen an infield fly rule call so deeply in the outfield.

    Additionally, the outfielder was right on (or coming upon) the backtracking infielder.

    Where does one see an 'infield' from this vantage point? (On a sky high pop-up to the outfield, if an infielder can race out to the oufielder in time to catch it, are we supposed to call all these 'infield-flies' then???)

    I think we will see some 'tweaking' of this rule next year.
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  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I also feel this was a terrible call. First of all for those saying the call was right based on the rule, the call has to be made "Immediately" which it most certainly was not. >>



    The rule says "***When it seems apparent*** that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare "Infield Fly" for the benefit of the runners."

    The umpire really wasn't able to call it a few seconds earlier because the SS was not under it then.




    << <i>
    I have watched god knows how many baseball games and never seen the infield fly rule called anywhere near that far out.
    >>



    See here. There was a pretty similar call in a Cubs game.

  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    essentially, Matt Holliday was rewarded for playing too deep in a "no extra base hits" defensive position for a fairly light hitting shortstop.

    if the LF plays at regular depth like in the early innings, Kozma doesn't even spin his wheels because HE KNOWS that Holliday is there for an easy play.

    Matheny will now recognize this as a potential weakness and move Holliday up in the late innings......until somebody whacks one over his head. image
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,097 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As mlbfan2 was alluding to - I don't think the "lateness" of the call is the issue. In reality, if the umpire is going to make that call, he did it as soon as he could because Kozma had just "camped" under it when the umpire called it. The issue is this - should it have been called so far away from the infield? The answer, in my opinion, is "no".

    Edited to say: I just watched that Harold Reynolds / Cubs clip. To me, it confirms what I just said about the "lateness" of the call.

    Shane

  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭


    << <i>As mlbfan2 was alluding to - I don't think the "lateness" of the call is the issue. In reality, if the umpire is going to make that call, he did it as soon as he could because Kozma had just "camped" under it when the umpire called it. The issue is this - should it have been called so far away from the infield? The answer, in my opinion, is "no".
    >>



    That is not true. Neither Kozma nor Holliday were EVER camped under the ball. Both were sprinting and Kozma had a play on the ball until he changed his mind and decided to let Holliday have it. It was 100% confusion between the Cardinals that led to the ball droppinig. Neither player was even remotely close to being "camped" under the ball at any point during the play.
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  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>As mlbfan2 was alluding to - I don't think the "lateness" of the call is the issue. In reality, if the umpire is going to make that call, he did it as soon as he could because Kozma had just "camped" under it when the umpire called it. The issue is this - should it have been called so far away from the infield? The answer, in my opinion, is "no".
    >>



    That is not true. Neither Kozma nor Holliday were EVER camped under the ball. Both were sprinting and Kozma had a play on the ball until he changed his mind and decided to let Holliday have it. It was 100% confusion between the Cardinals that led to the ball droppinig. Neither player was even remotely close to being "camped" under the ball at any point during the play. >>



    Even if you don't think he was camped under it, he certainly doesn't have to be camped under it for an infield fly to be called. Even a running catch can be an infield fly (probably not if the fielder is running hard, though).

    "An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort"

    Without the confusion, there's about a 99% chance that he would have caught the ball. He was briefly right under it with his arms up. Think of it this way...if he had caught the ball, it would have been nothing but a very ordinary catch, and not a "Web Gem".
  • 57loaded57loaded Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭
    One of the worst judgment calls I can think of other than the 1985 series.

    (sorry if this has been posted)only gripe I have is they spelled judgment with an "e" even if it is acceptable (my call)


    I'm pretty sure it will be adressed as to who should call what when there are more than a regular crew.

    Could this call have been "huddled" by the umpire crew and changed?

    I dunno if the outcome would have changed but still.

    FWIW I think the chop has seen it's day.
  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>As mlbfan2 was alluding to - I don't think the "lateness" of the call is the issue. In reality, if the umpire is going to make that call, he did it as soon as he could because Kozma had just "camped" under it when the umpire called it. The issue is this - should it have been called so far away from the infield? The answer, in my opinion, is "no".
    >>



    That is not true. Neither Kozma nor Holliday were EVER camped under the ball. Both were sprinting and Kozma had a play on the ball until he changed his mind and decided to let Holliday have it. It was 100% confusion between the Cardinals that led to the ball droppinig. Neither player was even remotely close to being "camped" under the ball at any point during the play. >>



    Even if you don't think he was camped under it, he certainly doesn't have to be camped under it for an infield fly to be called. Even a running catch can be an infield fly (probably not if the fielder is running hard, though).

    "An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort"

    Without the confusion, there's about a 99% chance that he would have caught the ball. He was briefly right under it with his arms up. Think of it this way...if he had caught the ball, it would have been nothing but a very ordinary catch, and not a "Web Gem". >>



    The Left Field umpire made the call after the ball had hit the ground. He can't do that.
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  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The Left Field umpire made the call after the ball had hit the ground. He can't do that. >>



    He did call it late, but the ball was clearly still in the air, as this video shows. link
  • jdip9jdip9 Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭
    <<<The Braves fans should be ashamed of themselves for acting like a bunch of European soccer fans gone mad dog crazy. >>>

    Topps - were you saying the same thing about Boston fans when they littered the field in the 1999 ALCS vs. the Yankees after a series of horrible calls by the umps?

    Just got around to watching the video...the call was brutal on so many levels. Very easy call for the umps to huddle and reverse if they wanted to. Just another example of how MLB makes very little effort to get the calls right on the field. They need to expand replay for a lot more situations than just home runs.
  • mcadamsmcadams Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The Left Field umpire made the call after the ball had hit the ground. He can't do that. >>



    He did call it late, but the ball was clearly still in the air, as this video shows. link >>



    Nice video. Thanks. However, it remains one of the worst calls in the history of the game.
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  • MCMLVToppsMCMLVTopps Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<<The Braves fans should be ashamed of themselves for acting like a bunch of European soccer fans gone mad dog crazy. >>>

    Topps - were you saying the same thing about Boston fans when they littered the field in the 1999 ALCS vs. the Yankees after a series of horrible calls by the umps?

    Absolutely, there is NO excuse for any fans to act like animals while attending a baseball game, or, for that matter, any game.

    Do you feel better now?

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've been a Braves fan for 30 years. My brother-in-law played in their farm system. I own and proudly wear a Braves jacket in the fall. I'm very much biased in favor of the Braves.

    And I think the umps got the call right.

    The rule sucks and needs to be tweaked but it was applied correctly here.

    Tabe
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