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Poll - Who owns the coin?
Tomthecoinguy
Posts: 849 ✭✭✭✭
Here is a hypotetical, that is not too far fetched. Lets say someone sells a $400 morgan dollar on ebay. The coin is sent to the buyer via the US postal service fully insured. The coin never shows up, so the seller makes a claim on the Post Office insurance and the claim is paid in full. The seller refunds the buyers money. Shortly after the coin shows up in the buyers mail box. The buyer asked the postman what he should do, and the postman says since the insurance was paid he should just keep the coin. My question is, who is the rightful owner of the coin?
Please answer the poll, and leave your comments. If you are a lawyer, postal employee, or someone else who believes they now the answer for sure, please tells that in your comments.
Please answer the poll, and leave your comments. If you are a lawyer, postal employee, or someone else who believes they now the answer for sure, please tells that in your comments.
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edited to add... from the DMM:
Recovered Article
If a lost registered, insured, COD, or Express Mail article is recovered after payment of a claim, the payee may accept the article and reimburse the USPS for the full amount paid if the article is undamaged. If the article is damaged, has depreciated, or has missing contents, the payee may accept it and reimburse the USPS in an amount set by the Consumer Advocate, USPS Headquarters.
The fact that postal regulations allow the payee on the claim to reimburse the post office for a found article would seem to indicate that the article belongs to the post office, I would think.
<< <i>What is sold: The U.S. Postal Service (USPS) auctions a wide variety of items that have been lost in the mail, are unclaimed, or on which an insurance claim has been paid. >>
If the seller recovers the item, he can receive ownership by fully or partially reimbursing the USPS.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>The post office gave away their coin to the buyer. Did you tell your mailman "thank you"? >>
You're correct if the mailman is authorized to give away USPS property.
<< <i>The post office gave away their coin to the buyer. >>
The postman saying "You can keep the coin" doesn't mean that the post office is giving the coin away. If there are any doubts about this, a qucik call on the local postmaster to explain the situation and ask for an opinion would clear things up pretty quick.
edited to add...
<< <i>You're correct if the mailman is authorized to give away USPS property. >>
Can the postman give away his truck? If not, he can't give away the coin, either.
On a larger scale this is what happens and comes up when a shipwreck full of gold coins is found. The insurance companies (or their successors) who paid the shipper/owner of the lost cargo when the ship sunk 150-250 years ago is subrogated to the rights of the shipper/owner by virute of the payment of the claim. When the ship and its contents are salvaged today, at least part of the recovered assets should go to the insurers who paid the claim.
i think the legal answer is probably the hardest scenario.
the buyer should refund the money to the seller if they have the coin and the seller should refund the post office.
i am no lawyer but i recall reading something to that effect about insurance claims readjustment, again i am no lawyer
.
<< <i>
<< <i>The post office gave away their coin to the buyer. Did you tell your mailman "thank you"? >>
You're correct if the mailman is authorized to give away USPS property. >>
And, since he isn't so authorized, he couldn't give it away, hence it still belongs to the USPS or else is legally theft.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Lance.
<< <i>Legally, it's the property of the USPS and will be sold via United States Post Office Auctions.
<< <i>What is sold: The U.S. Postal Service (USPS) auctions a wide variety of items that have been lost in the mail, are unclaimed, or on which an insurance claim has been paid. >>
If the seller recovers the item, he can receive ownership by fully or partially reimbursing the USPS. >>
I think this is correct.
The PO Squares with the Buyer.
The Seller Squares with the PO.
The buyer got his money back
The seller uses the money originally paid by the buyer to get his original coin back.
The name is LEE!
Why is this a hard question?
<< <i>
<< <i>Legally, it's the property of the USPS and will be sold via United States Post Office Auctions.
<< <i>What is sold: The U.S. Postal Service (USPS) auctions a wide variety of items that have been lost in the mail, are unclaimed, or on which an insurance claim has been paid. >>
If the seller recovers the item, he can receive ownership by fully or partially reimbursing the USPS. >>
I think this is correct.
The PO Squares with the Buyer.
The Seller Squares with the PO.
The buyer got his money back
The seller uses the money originally paid by the buyer to get his original coin back. >>
You agree to lend me $10, but only give me $5 of it. That way, I'll owe you $5 and you'll owe me $5 and we'll be even.
<< <i>Here is a hypotetical, that is not too far fetched. Lets say someone sells a $400 morgan dollar on ebay. The coin is sent to the buyer via the US postal service fully insured. The coin never shows up, so the seller makes a claim on the Post Office insurance and the claim is paid in full. The seller refunds the buyers money. Shortly after the coin shows up in the buyers mail box. The buyer asked the postman what he should do, and the postman says since the insurance was paid he should just keep the coin. My question is, who is the rightful owner of the coin?
Please answer the poll, and leave your comments. If you are a lawyer, postal employee, or someone else who believes they now the answer for sure, please tells that in your comments. >>
Of course it depends also on how the USPS settles the claim. Say you sell a really really nice toned PCGS ms64 1885-o Morgan for $500 which is nearly 7x sheet. The USPS loses it and you file your claim along with a purchase agreement for the $500 with your customer. The USPS says the coin is worth $75 and cuts you a check for that amount. If it gets delivered later, do you think the USPS is still entitled to the coin for $$75? What if they only paid $15 which I have heard that they have done any number of times?
<< <i>Of course it depends also on how the USPS settles the claim. Say you sell a really really nice toned PCGS ms64 1885-o Morgan for $500 which is nearly 7x sheet. The USPS loses it and you file your claim along with a purchase agreement for the $500 with your customer. The USPS says the coin is worth $75 and cuts you a check for that amount. >>
Every claim I've filed with the post office and been paid for, they have accepted the invoice total as the amount refunded.
<< <i>If it gets delivered later, do you think the USPS is still entitled to the coin for $$75? >>
As posted above:
If a lost registered, insured, COD, or Express Mail article is recovered after payment of a claim, the payee may accept the article and reimburse the USPS for the full amount paid if the article is undamaged.
the person to whom the post office made payment for the claim may reimburse the post office and take possession of the coin.
<< <i>What if they only paid $15 which I have heard that they have done any number of times? >>
Paid $15 for a $500 coin? I would be suspicious of this claim until I saw convincing evidence that it actually happened.
SELLER is out on this one.
<< <i>Ummm....everybody is forgetting that the SELLER is still out the coin. Buyer has been refunded, but the seller is out the funds.
SELLER is out on this one. >>
???
"The coin never shows up, so the seller makes a claim on the Post Office insurance and the claim is paid in full."
Now, the seller has the buyer's money + the post office's money. The buyer and the post office have nothing.
"The seller refunds the buyers money."
Now, the buyer has his money, the seller has his money and the post office has nothing.
I don't think anyone is forgetting anything.
<< <i>The entity that pays the insurance claims (the USPS in this hypothetical I presume) would be subrogated to the rights of the insured (the seller) and would step into the seller's shoes in the transaction. Since the seller refunded the purchase price to the buyer the buyer is made whole. The seller is made whole by the insurance payment. The buyer should not get the coin since he has been paid back his purchase price and allowing him to keep the coin would give the buyer a double recovery (the coin and his/her purchase price). The seller should not get the coin since that would give him/her a double recovery (the coin and the insurance payment). The only party who should, in fairness, get the coin is the insurance company who paid the claim.
On a larger scale this is what happens and comes up when a shipwreck full of gold coins is found. The insurance companies (or their successors) who paid the shipper/owner of the lost cargo when the ship sunk 150-250 years ago is subrogated to the rights of the shipper/owner by virute of the payment of the claim. When the ship and its contents are salvaged today, at least part of the recovered assets should go to the insurers who paid the claim. >>
What he said....CHD