Member suggest I post this is this a genuine 1883 US Silver dollar (moved)

Zerox

Sorry I reposted this in the wrong place, so i've moved it. (hope thats okay)


I have recently found 3 silver coins in a auction lot, didn't even know they were in there, I just bid on a gut instinct, so to speak, and a few uk coins I thought would get my money back

the original post is in world coins here http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=868094




<< <i>Id highly reccommend you get nice clear pics of that silver dollar and post them over on the US coin forum Dave , i'm anything but expert on those but we do have the best of the best over there who can spot a fake at 20 paces and i hate to say it but at first glance the eagle doesnt look right. >>



Thanks James

Good Idea. I'm just uploading some pictures now. the eagles breast is very rubbed the back is much better and the details is certainly finer on there than the front of the coin sadly but heres the pictures, see for yourself, and I will copy this post to the US coin section too.






Also I did check the head position, with the eagle upright, the face is upside down when flipped over (ie 180 degrees to each other)

Thanks again

Dave

ps forgot to add.

this is the edge of the coin (the middle one for the US coin) and the coins all pass the ping test, ie they ring over clunk when struck with the others. so I think all three are silver at least!!! (non are magnetic and all three are 26 grams on poor but usable kitchen scales.




Thanks in advance

more pictures of all three coins here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24192306

Dave

braddick

I do not believe your Morgan dollar is genuine.

First 'tell': The rim.
Second 'tell': The date (especially the 3).
The third 'tell': The overall softness of the hair detail.

stealer

Fake for sure, it's not really the eagle it's actually the "3" in the date. It's all lumpy and unlike how it looks on a genuine coin. Also the 3rd picture you showed is also a tell. I can't accurately describe why it looks wrong other than the indentations should not be so squared off and the non-indented regions should be raised, not flat, unless on an extremely circulated coin in which the indented area would not be so deep.

I suggest you create an account at HA.com because they have fantastic pictures in their auction result archives and you can use it to check your coins.

Bochiman

I would not buy the coin as real.

Zerox

thanks guys

3 out of three so far sort of confirms it, sadly. but it not like I paid a fortunes for them. just seems strange to have 3 fake coins in a old box, but people do strange things.

I hoped if this was genuine it would validate the others but if this is fake, this others are probably probably fakes for sure too.

Oh well I only spent £11.50 on the lot, so it's not like I wasted a fortune on all of this!!!



Dave

JamesMurray

Thanks guys The more i look at it the more i think it's a really good copy but at first glance it kinda screamed copy , nothing i could put my finger on other then to me the bird doesnt look right.

JamesMurray

" others are probably probably fakes for sure too. "

The others are likely genuine , they appear to be commen world coins seen in many a box , the banknotes look good too , i recoqnise a few of those from my time on the boats : )

tincup

Just because the Morgan ended up to be fake does not mean the other two coins are fake also (looks by your photo that the other two are larger silver foreign coins?).

stealer

The Chinese Trade Dollar (or is it Japanese?) is fake as well along with the Chinese Car dollar. The designs and devices are all wrong on those coins.

Post those two on the world coin forums for affirmation because I don't collect these. They look completely wrong at first glance however.

JamesMurray

To be clear i didn't mean the other two Chinese coins were genuine , i was talking about the load of world coins , i suspect you are right in thinking the big 3 are all fakes.At the price they went for at auction i think it was known they were fakes..possibly salted the box to push the others.

Jinx86

My grandpa and I used to do alot of auctions and this is what he would call a "sucker box". A mix of legit low value things with a "value" fake in the mix to get people bidding.

stealer

.

JamesMurray

<< <i>

<< <i>My grandpa and I used to do alot of auctions and this is what he would call a "sucker box". A mix of legit low value things with a "value" fake in the mix to get people bidding. >>


So your grandpa knowingly passed off fakes as genuine to make more money? >>



Just as likely Papa knew a sucker box when he seen one.

stealer

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>My grandpa and I used to do alot of auctions and this is what he would call a "sucker box". A mix of legit low value things with a "value" fake in the mix to get people bidding. >>


So your grandpa knowingly passed off fakes as genuine to make more money? >>



Just as likely Papa knew a sucker box when he seen one. >>


Ah okay, reread the OP and realized that makes much more sense in context.

stealer

double post

Zerox

<< <i>My grandpa and I used to do alot of auctions and this is what he would call a "sucker box". A mix of legit low value things with a "value" fake in the mix to get people bidding. >>




I can understand that if it was a big auction, but this was a little country villiage auction, so it probably a sucker box that was bought and the relisted. As I said I paid a £10 (less than $20) for the lot I pictured, so even listing them as fakes on Ebay I'll probably still double my money if not a little more. ie there pretty good fakes all be they are fakes.

cheers guys, it was a interesting ride, shame there not real, but there still a few quid in it I'm sure and any profit is profit, no matter how big the margin. Ho Hum thats life

Dave

LanceNewmanOCC

.
i did not read this whole thread but wanted to say all the images for coin from this link

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24192306

are not authentic except maybe that icg comparison coin
.

Jinx86

We didnt put auctions together, we went to them as buyers...thought I should clear that up.

Edit to add

Also why are people on here so quick to assume the negative, was it even considered that we were just attending the sales?

JamesMurray

<< <i>

<< <i>My grandpa and I used to do alot of auctions and this is what he would call a "sucker box". A mix of legit low value things with a "value" fake in the mix to get people bidding. >>




I can understand that if it was a big auction, but this was a little country villiage auction, so it probably a sucker box that was bought and the relisted. As I said I paid a £10 (less than $20) for the lot I pictured, so even listing them as fakes on Ebay I'll probably still double my money if not a little more. ie there pretty good fakes all be they are fakes.

cheers guys, it was a interesting ride, shame there not real, but there still a few quid in it I'm sure and any profit is profit, no matter how big the margin. Ho Hum thats life

Dave >>



Don't be discouraged Dave , one of the first coins i bought was a fake yet it was debated for a long long time if it was or not , in the end i mailed it to an expert who did tests on it confirming it's a fake.Specific gravity test i think it was ... put it down to experience and move on to the next auction.You are ideally placed for coinage that is becoming quite popular here in the US and i'd have to say coin collecting is a big hobby here as opposed to the UK , there's money to be made lad. : )

Zerox

<< <i>We didnt put auctions together, we went to them as buyers...thought I should clear that up.

Edit to add

Also why are people on here so quick to assume the negative, was it even considered that we were just attending the sales? >>



I understood what you meant jinx, ie your grandfather could spot the sucker boxes , when present!!!

Dave

Zerox

Thanks all for your input!

As I said I paid a tenner for the who lot, so I'm not down Hundreds of pounds!!!

thanks for info guys, I will continue to read and monitor the thread!!!

Dave

coindeuce

The Morgan is a transfer die forgery.

MsMorrisine

well, it sounds like you are in the UK. great sleuthing?


you can follow your country laws and ebay.uk rules, but selling known fakes on eBay is not allowed under us ebay policy nor us counterfeiting rules.



I'm not sure they are even silver. they may ring alike because they are all made of the same non-silver metal. do they pass a magnet test? (failing is exclusionary, passing is not inclusionary)

JamesMurray

<< <i>well, it sounds like you are in the UK. great sleuthing?


you can follow your country laws and ebay.uk rules, but selling known fakes on eBay is not allowed under us ebay policy nor us counterfeiting rules.



I'm not sure they are even silver. they may ring alike because they are all made of the same non-silver metal. do they pass a magnet test? (failing is exclusionary, passing is not inclusionary) >>



How the heck does ebay come into this ? The Op mentioned in his opening post they are non magnetic and nowhere has intimated anywhere he had any intention to sell them anywhere far less ebay.

piecesofme

What I can't believe is that low grade 1883 O's are being faked? Why?

Justlooking

<< <i>What I can't believe is that low grade 1883 O's are being faked? Why? >>



Yeah, that's got me wondering, too. Plus, it looks cleaned. Who would go to the trouble of cleaning a fake coin? Looks like they used a lot of elbow grease, too.

piecesofme

so even listing them as fakes on Ebay I'll probably still double my money if not a little more

Fakes are no longer allowed on eBay, there's not even a category for selling them as being fakes any more, which I think is a bad decision on eBays part.
It's like they aren't even giving people the option to sell something they know and are representing as being fake, so that could tempt a seller to take a chance at selling it in a legit categories just to get rid of it, even if they wanted to be honest about it in the first place. Troubling in my opinion.

JamesMurray

Fair enough , i hadn't noticed that comment , apologies Ms M for the mistake.

EagleEye

The Chinese forgeries are not silver and are made so cheaply that the counterfeiters make a huge profit even if they sell them for a dollar! Their cost is probably less than 10 cents.

stealer

<< <i>The Chinese forgeries are not silver and are made so cheaply that the counterfeiters make a huge profit even if they sell them for a dollar! Their cost is probably less than 10 cents. >>


The good ones meant to trick collectors, dealers and TPGs alike are made of silver and do pass the ring/magnet/specific gravity tests. Those are the truly scary ones and the truly profitable ones as well.

EagleEye

Yes, the "C" type's are pot metal and very cheap. They also make scary deceptive ones and put them in fake holders too. The 1883-O is not one of those, though.

Zerox

<< <i>

<< <i>The Chinese forgeries are not silver and are made so cheaply that the counterfeiters make a huge profit even if they sell them for a dollar! Their cost is probably less than 10 cents. >>


The good ones meant to trick collectors, dealers and TPGs alike are made of silver and do pass the ring/magnet/specific gravity tests. Those are the truly scary ones and the truly profitable ones as well. >>




I have a feeling that's what these ones are, and I don't think there modern copies either. (Ie I think they have some age to them but sadly not 1883 and the like, and they do feel like Silver to me.

As I've said the three coins ring and are non magnetic, and as has been said here, why copy a low grade morgan dollar? Unless when the forgery was done they where of a higher value?

I also understand Ebay's policy on fake coin's (shame) as all it does is crowd known fakes out of the market, ie people don't get to see the fakes, and bigger men than I will fall because of that sadly.

This is speculation, but I think (now) these where probably bought in the 1970's or early 1980's in hong kong (there were two x $2 Hong Kong Dollars in the box of that date and a 10 bunt Thailand note) so maybe the buyer was travelling in the far east and came across these "silver copies" and bought them and they where put in there coin box. (to remind them of there travels ie there is stuff from Europe, including the east block too, of that time, and there is nothing in the box older than 1985 (ish!)

Jinx mentioned the Deception of putting fake coins in a box of scrap coins to bolster the sale value, but I can't believe thats the case here! Ie why do this at a small village auction, as I said I only took a punt on these because of the 5 UK crowns in the box, I believed these were worth about £5 each so I was happy to put £2 each on the coins (which turns out to be there value). so it not like there was ever going to be a bidding war, with one buyer fighting another, spending hundreds of pounds thinking there was a 1928 auto Dollar in there. I didn't even notice the morgan let alone the two chinese coins.

Lastly As mention in the post

What I can't believe is that low grade 1883 O's are being faked? Why?

Yeah, that's got me wondering, too. Plus, it looks cleaned. Who would go to the trouble of cleaning a fake coin? Looks like they used a lot of elbow grease, too.

I too believe the Morgan has been cleaned, but not recently, ie it wasn't done by me and I think it was done some time ago, the coin has started to tarnish up again and that makes me believe it is silver? that then makes me ask well, if it is silver and it weighs the same as a morgan it a hell of a lot of effort for a coin worth $30 or so. So would I be right in guessing that at some point in the 1970 and 1980, the Morgan Would have been more valuable and worth more copied then!

Well sadly I've wasted a weekend to find out these are fakes, but as I said I bought them for the hell of it! So they have kept me entertained for more than a few hours if nothing else, and I've also had an education in chinese coins, and US silver dollars, and fake coins. I'm pretty sure I will get my money back on the crowns and uk stuff, and I might have got 3 lumps of silver at 26 grams each scrap silver is over £20 an ounce (ie £50 at current UK prices) so if that is the case, and they are silver I'll still be 400% up and thats not to bad a return!

thank you for all your help in this

Dave

GrumpyEd

<< <i>I might have got 3 lumps of silver at 26 grams each scrap silver is over £20 an ounce (ie £50 at current UK prices) so if that is the case, and they are silver I'll still be 400% up and thats not to bad a return! >>



Your best next step is have a jeweler or someone at a coin show with a good scale weigh them to see what they weigh.

Zerox

<< <i>

<< <i>I might have got 3 lumps of silver at 26 grams each scrap silver is over £20 an ounce (ie £50 at current UK prices) so if that is the case, and they are silver I'll still be 400% up and thats not to bad a return! >>



Your best next step is have a jeweler or someone at a coin show with a good scale weigh them to see what they weigh. >>



got a place local that will test them (cash convertors) I'm sure they will have the acid to test them there, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope that there silver, ie if they are, they are! If there not so be it. as I said I paid a Tenner. (i've not lost anything yet, Ie I still have 3 nice replicas of some very nice rare coins.

probably just keep them.

Dave

messydesk

<< <i>Yeah, that's got me wondering, too. Plus, it looks cleaned. Who would go to the trouble of cleaning a fake coin? Looks like they used a lot of elbow grease, too. >>


The cleaning is to simply make it look like an old, genuine coin that has been cleaned, as we know there are several of those, and to hide manufacturing flaws.

EagleEye

Keep in mind that this type of fake is meant to sell to tourists in bazaars in Shanghai, not to collectors. The date is unimportant. A rarer date or a non-existent date would attract suspicion.

The sellers mark it at $10, but you can haggle them down to $1.